Warp Spiders call-in

[Tinibombini]

Just as an added note, Spiders tend to lose a lot of their frightening potential come late game when units aren't afraid of piercing damage, and are toting enough firepower to make them evaporate, green cover or no.

I am not sure if you are commenting on 1v1 or team games but I think that this concern is less apparent in 1v1. There won't be that many units that are not afraid of the warp spiders' piercing damage and the large amount of space on the maps means the spiders can use their superior mobility to do something useful besides engaging in a one-sided battle (e.g. shooting a regular termies or some other late game unit).

[Kvn]

I am not sure if you are commenting on 1v1 or team games but I think that this concern is less apparent in 1v1. There won't be that many units that are not afraid of the warp spiders' piercing damage and the large amount of space on the maps means the spiders can use their superior mobility to do something useful besides engaging in a one-sided battle (e.g. shooting a regular termies or some other late game unit).

Both actually. More in 3v3 for obvious reasons, but it's still a big factor in 1v1 as well. Spiders are one of those units that hit hard when they show up, but against T3 ranged squads like Flash Gitz, Kasrkin, any Terminators with a ranged attack, or T3 vehicles in general, they bleed you quite badly regardless of cover. Not saying that's a good or bad thing, but that's how they tend to function.

[Dark Riku]

@Kven.
Warp spiders are till one of the better call-ins. Please at least compare them to T2 and below call-ins ...
T3 call-ins are mostly super units, c'mon You need to get to that part of the game first and naturally they are better in vacuum, they also cost a lot more.

Warp Spiders will bleed against any of the T3 ranged superiority squads just like all other T2 and below units do, that's indeed to be expected. You're also not supposed to use these against those. Warp spiders can at least teleport to safety immediately. In 1v1 on the other hand your army consists of much more than only T3 ranged superiority units. Come T3 they are great cappers that will outshoot most other squads used for capping and are still a deterrent for vehicle play.

[Kvn]

Warp spiders are till one of the better call-ins. Please at least compare them to T2 and below call-ins ...
T3 call-ins are mostly super units, c'mon You need to get to that part of the game first and naturally they are better in vacuum, they also cost a lot more.

I realize that. The person I was quoting in the original post stated that they were one of the best callins in the game, so I pointed out a lot that were stronger both in T2 and T3.

Spiders will bleed against any of the T3 ranged superiority squads just like all other T2 and below units do, that's indeed to be expected. You're also not supposed to use these against those. Warp spiders can at least teleport to safety immediately. In 1v1 on the other hand your army consists of much more than only T3 ranged superiority units. Come T3 they are great cappers that will outshoot most other squads used for capping and are still a deterrent for vehicle play.

I realize that as well, which is why I never said Warp Spiders were bad or that they needed a buff to their callin cost. I simply said that they're not a good late-game fighting unit, which they aren't. The main reason I specified them bleeding as opposed to normal T2 and sooner infantry was because they tend to bleed you a lot more with their low hp pool and comparatively high reinforcement cost.

[Dark Riku]

Want to clear up some misunderstandings.

I realize that. The person I was quoting in the original post stated that they were one of the best callins in the game, so I pointed out a lot that were stronger both in T2 and T3.

I'm pointing out they are one of the better call-ins in the game, especially in the T2 and below category. A T3 call-in won't do you any good if the game ends in T2, where most 1v1's are decided. The drops all do different things, and yes the Bane Wolf is also one of the better ones but for different reasons. Warp Spider are more all round (mobility, great raged DPS, AV) and provide the only "generic" (unit, not global/hero specific) vehicle stun.

I realize that as well, which is why I never said Warp Spiders were bad or that they needed a buff to their callin cost. I simply said that they're not a good late-game fighting unit, which they aren't. The main reason I specified them bleeding as opposed to normal T2 and sooner infantry was because they tend to bleed you a lot more with their low hp pool and comparatively high reinforcement cost.

And I'm saying they are a good late-game fighting unit. See reasons above.

[Tex]

@Rataxas

Inferno bolters are a horrible investment against eldar as Chaos unless you are against wraithguard or 2x FD's or 2x DR's, or if suddenly a wild avatar appears. I mean... why would somebody get inferno bolts against WS I have no idea. Plus, you lose slaughter, which is your only chance of countering banshees in a lot of smaller engagments.

[Laplace's Demon]

Seems more like an issue of internal balance to me. Whenever a unit/option is under used in a faction, I think its worth asking questions. I don't see many WS players using the WS callin, and I suspect most of you don't either if you're being honest. The question should be why. If we decide the red cost is fair, then why aren't they used much? If the answer is that they're specialized/ situational, then that puts the WS exarch at a disadvantage because one of his few globals is unusable in most cases.

Either way, its a good discussion.

[Crewfinity]

Seems more like an issue of internal balance to me. Whenever a unit/option is under used in a faction, I think its worth asking questions. I don't see many WS players using the WS callin, and I suspect most of you don't either if you're being honest. The question should be why. If we decide the red cost is fair, then why aren't they used much? If the answer is that they're specialized/ situational, then that puts the WS exarch at a disadvantage because one of his few globals is unusable in most cases.

Either way, its a good discussion.

Or maybe just because Crack shot is an awesome global that lots of players love pouring red into. The spider call in is situational in that it's not necessary, but still quite good in many cases, as are warp spiders themselves. Globals are meant to be situational, you don't see stormtroopers call ins every game either. Altho that's more just because bane wolf is still stupid op.

I see lots of high level players use the spider call in. And wse is one of the best 1v1 heroes, same as warp spiders are one of the best 1v1 squads. No buffs needed plz.

[Deflaktor]

Mind you, when I'm actually going for the spider call-in I would NEVER waste any red on anything else as it would delay the warp spider call-in even further. Maybe it is just the other way around? People are spamming crack shot because they know that trying to use the Warp Spider call-in is a lost cause?

Okay, to be fair, I never play 1v1, I'm coming from a 3v3 perspective. I can see that in 1v1 Warp Spider perform better due to the space available in those maps. But I think the global is still just too expensive. 200 red is not easy to get and I can imagine that in 1v1 it is even harder.

[Wise Windu]

Well, for me at least, the WS call in is generally not the first T2 unit purchase, and by the time it gets to mid/late T2, the amount of Red I have will have gone up a bit, and usually I won't have bled too much because I like Falcons And if I don't have the Red, I just buy them if I need them. 40 Power really isn't that much mid/late in T2 if it means dealing with a vehicle or dealing with melee squads.

Plus, Warp Spiders are a great capping unit, utility unit, ranged unit, kiting unit, etc. They're absolutely amazing if you control them well. I think they're well worth the Red, personally. Combine them with a Falcon and you have a mobile ranged superiority and vehicle counter/snare platform.

[Forestradio]

Ravs - 300/0/150 - t2
Discount - 50/40
Bonuses: Free reinforcement, damage

Ravener callin actually costs 400 requisition.
But no one plays the Ravener Alpha so w/e

On topic, warp spiders are 100% fine at the moment and there is 0 reason to change anything with the unit itself, the callin could get a SMALL quality of life adjustment but it's also pretty much fine, overperforming callins should be addressed first.

[Thunderhost]

200 red is not easy to get and I can imagine that in 1v1 it is even harder.

I beg your pardon?
While global resources can be hard to acquire versus lowmodel/high hp races, the rate of acquisition increases dramatically in the later tech tiers. And in 3v3 it should be even easier, so I do find this a faulty argument for a decrease in a call-in. The gathering of global resources is dependent on your ability to dispose of enemy models and whether you are "too good" at preserving your own (thus not gaining global income from them).
And while, from an eldar perspective, you want as little bleed as possible, you still have a huge damage potential..