Tics need to give less xp

[Carnevour]

Considering that tics currently are the most useless unit in the game can they at least give less xp? I've noticed they give waay to much xp for the mediocre job they do now. Before you say anything, currently tics are a unit that cant fight against any dedicated melee squad (which was their role a melee detergent), cap by their lonesome or do anything for that matter except bleed xp and provide worship. In regards to nade launchers they are and always be situational.

[Asmon]

They cost 190 req lulz. Two squads will still do fine in melee and be cost-effective.

[brutalisto]

They just veteranize enemy army thus making it stronger than yours. The key to victory is preserving and levelling up your squads. Tics help the enemy squads to gain levels very easily now putting you at great disadvantage. Tics are supposed to level up too not just being wiped out and replaced because of their low cost. Also asp. Champ is mandatory purchase now cuz they need durability in order to stay on the field and worship. Total bullshit.

[Psycho]

(which was their role a melee detergent)

[saltychipmunk]

Considering that tics currently are the most useless unit in the game can they at least give less xp? I've noticed they give waay to much xp for the mediocre job they do now. Before you say anything, currently tics are a unit that cant fight against any dedicated melee squad (which was their role a melee detergent), cap by their lonesome or do anything for that matter except bleed xp and provide worship. In regards to nade launchers they are and always be situational.

lol tics worthless. you funny

heretics are a melee soft counter . this means they are supposed to work in conjunction with other units to counter melee units. That should have been their intended role from the beginning of the game. the fact that they were an actual hard counter was completely broken.

210 melee unit should not be better than a 270 req melee unit at every role said melee unit could do and then some. That would be mental.

now the job of the tics is to slow melee down and provide a meat shield for the other chaos units to deal damage. its still an aoe FREE suppression that you get from the start of the game.

it is far more impactful than say the tiny extra movement speed scouts get as an excuse to call them counter melee.

[Carnevour]

They cost 190 req lulz. Two squads will still do fine in melee and be cost-effective.

So let me guess i need to have 2 tics constantly together to have a chance to countering a melee squad? Great concept. So instead of having old tics that cost 210 and did their job fine now I have a cheaper unit but which is so shit that it serves a purpose of being a soft melee counter? Why not have banshees be a soft counter to csm and sm, just drop their price and get 2 its going to be fine dont worry brah. Note i didnt even ask for a buff to them or anything im asking they give less xp to enemy heroes and units due to them being currently a pile of rubbish, since you can get around it with new builds or experimantation but you cannot get past the fact that you need more tics than before and they bleed all the same making an enemy hero lvl 3 by T2.

[Ace of Swords]

I'd rather see them getting buffed again, I don't think they were overperforming before.

[Atlas]

Don't make me push it.

[Kvn]

So let me guess i need to have 2 tics constantly together to have a chance to countering a melee squad? Great concept. So instead of having old tics that cost 210 and did their job fine now I have a cheaper unit but which is so shit that it serves a purpose of being a soft melee counter? Why not have banshees be a soft counter to csm and sm, just drop their price and get 2 its going to be fine dont worry brah. Note i didnt even ask for a buff to them or anything im asking they give less xp to enemy heroes and units due to them being currently a pile of rubbish, since you can get around it with new builds or experimantation but you cannot get past the fact that you need more tics than before and they bleed all the same making an enemy hero lvl 3 by T2.

Heretics are far from worthless. Their base utility, namely their worship, has remained unchanged, and in fact, has been slightly buffed in the sense that you can now support multiple Heretic squads more easily. Unlike a few other squads I could name, they still remain useful into the later game with shrines, repair support, and soft disruption from their grenade barrage. Their early game killing potential has been lessened, but they've been made into a more efficient screen as a result. Comparing them to Banshees is a bad call given that they fill two very different niches in their respective armies.

While I'm not a Chaos player by any stretch of the imagination, I've personally found GL Heretics to be quite good in a lot of different situations. I'd not call them situational really given that they are potent vs races such as Orks and Eldar, and can be straight up mandatory vs IG.

As for the xp, I think things are getting a bit exaggerated. They give off 50 (from 42) xp per model, which is the same as an Imperial Guardsman. That isn't really a huge amount, and while it does let the enemy squads level slightly faster, there's not going to be the discrepancy being mentioned here unless you really lose a lot of them. And in that case, you'd be in a bad way regardless of how much xp they were giving since your rec reserves would be hurting even with their discount.

Just to be clear, I'm pretty impassive as to whether their current incarnation is better or worse than before or if they need to be buffed back. Just trying to throw in some of my perspective on their current potential.

[Carnevour]

So let me guess i need to have 2 tics constantly together to have a chance to countering a melee squad? Great concept. So instead of having old tics that cost 210 and did their job fine now I have a cheaper unit but which is so shit that it serves a purpose of being a soft melee counter? Why not have banshees be a soft counter to csm and sm, just drop their price and get 2 its going to be fine dont worry brah. Note i didnt even ask for a buff to them or anything im asking they give less xp to enemy heroes and units due to them being currently a pile of rubbish, since you can get around it with new builds or experimantation but you cannot get past the fact that you need more tics than before and they bleed all the same making an enemy hero lvl 3 by T2.

Heretics are far from worthless. Their base utility, namely their worship, has remained unchanged, and in fact, has been slightly buffed in the sense that you can now support multiple Heretic squads more easily. Unlike a few other squads I could name, they still remain useful into the later game with shrines, repair support, and soft disruption from their grenade barrage. Their early game killing potential has been lessened, but they've been made into a more efficient screen as a result. Comparing them to Banshees is a bad call given that they fill two very different niches in their respective armies.

While I'm not a Chaos player by any stretch of the imagination, I've personally found GL Heretics to be quite good in a lot of different situations. I'd not call them situational really given that they are potent vs races such as Orks and Eldar, and can be straight up mandatory vs IG.

As for the xp, I think things are getting a bit exaggerated. They give off 50 (from 42) xp per model, which is the same as an Imperial Guardsman. That isn't really a huge amount, and while it does let the enemy squads level slightly faster, there's not going to be the discrepancy being mentioned here unless you really lose a lot of them. And in that case, you'd be in a bad way regardless of how much xp they were giving since your rec reserves would be hurting even with their discount.

Just to be clear, I'm pretty impassive as to whether their current incarnation is better or worse than before or if they need to be buffed back. Just trying to throw in some of my perspective on their current potential.

Paying 380 for a job that 210 tics used to do doesnt sound reasonable. Exeprimanted with 3 tic build 2 with gl and let me tell you that its mediocre due to the main fact that come T2 they provide nothing and have to be kept together to do atleast something. You can spend that power on noise marines that do a better job of fending off melee and doing more dmg (mind you they cannot be dodged like nade launchers). if you dont want to be givin free xp constantly to the enemy you pretty much have to limit 1 or 2 tics that are just a walking worship or a meatshield (what the nerf im guessing aimed to do) that makes your enemy stronger. But considering that tics are pretty much the CORE of a chaos army by some demented design choice done by relic, making so they cant do anything in any stage of the game except worship and feed xp is not ok.
On the subject of guardsmen they are ranged and are complemented by Sentinels.
You can play chaos without csm but you cannot play them without tics and its have been done beofre.

[Kvn]

Paying 380 for a job that 210 tics used to do doesnt sound reasonable. Exeprimanted with 3 tic build 2 with gl and let me tell you that its mediocre due to the main fact that come T2 they provide nothing and have to be kept together to do atleast something. You can spend that power on noise marines that do a better job of fending off melee and doing more dmg (mind you they cannot be dodged like nade launchers). if you dont want to be givin free xp constantly to the enemy you pretty much have to limit 1 or 2 tics that are just a walking worship or a meatshield (what the nerf im guessing aimed to do) that makes your enemy stronger. But considering that tics are pretty much the CORE of a chaos army by some demented design choice done by relic, making so they cant do anything in any stage of the game except worship and feed xp is not ok.
On the subject of guardsmen they are ranged and are complemented by Sentinels.
You can play chaos without csm but you cannot play them without tics and its have been done beofre.

You're not paying 380 for a job that one Tic squad could do previously. You still get double the worship, double the repair support, double the bodies to soak up enemy fire, the option to go one AC one GL, etc. They didn't cut the Tic stats in half, they just removed some of their damage output while dropping their cost. Similar things have been done with a lot of other units as well, and most (not all, but most) of those are still widely used.

It's hard to take your argument seriously when you state that they are completely helpless and can't do anything in any stage of the game. That simply isn't true. They still can perform their base function, and none of their added abilities are affected.

I don't recall it ever being advertised that triple Heretics would be the new meta beyond some mild speculation. Going mass Tics was a bad idea in the past, and it's still a bad idea now. 2x Tics on the other hand, has been widely tried and tested. When I play Chaos I almost always go for that due to it being a lot more flexible, cheaper, and more supporting than double CSM.

I'm fairly sure that the nerf was designed to push them further into a supporting role rather than a straight-up killing unit. That's what their main theme is. They don't have special attacks (prior to getting the AC) but have much higher than normal melee skill, meaning they won't get special-attacked in turn. Their goal is usually to tie up, bog down, and essentially bury their target with numbers. While they've been hurt in terms of aggressive capabilities, they're more capable of taking losses now and won't punish your economy as hard as before.

As for the xp, 50 isn't nearly as much as you're making it sound like. It might push a hero/squad who is nearly leveled up over the limit, but that extra 8 xp per model isn't going to suddenly rocket the discrepancy up unless you're losing way too many models to begin with.

You can also play SM without Tacs, but not without Scouts. That isn't a design flaw, that's part of the race. Worship control has always been a major factor in good Chaos play, and repair support is crucial regardless of faction.

[Carnevour]

You're not paying 380 for a job that one Tic squad could do previously. You still get double the worship, double the repair support, double the bodies to soak up enemy fire, the option to go one AC one GL, etc. They didn't cut the Tic stats in half, they just removed some of their damage output while dropping their cost. Similar things have been done with a lot of other units as well, and most (not all, but most) of those are still widely used.

It's hard to take your argument seriously when you state that they are completely helpless and can't do anything in any stage of the game. That simply isn't true. They still can perform their base function, and none of their added abilities are affected.

I don't recall it ever being advertised that triple Heretics would be the new meta beyond some mild speculation. Going mass Tics was a bad idea in the past, and it's still a bad idea now. 2x Tics on the other hand, has been widely tried and tested. When I play Chaos I almost always go for that due to it being a lot more flexible, cheaper, and more supporting than double CSM.

I'm fairly sure that the nerf was designed to push them further into a supporting role rather than a straight-up killing unit. That's what their main theme is. They don't have special attacks (prior to getting the AC) but have much higher than normal melee skill, meaning they won't get special-attacked in turn. Their goal is usually to tie up, bog down, and essentially bury their target with numbers. While they've been hurt in terms of aggressive capabilities, they're more capable of taking losses now and won't punish your economy as hard as before.

As for the xp, 50 isn't nearly as much as you're making it sound like. It might push a hero/squad who is nearly leveled up over the limit, but that extra 8 xp per model isn't going to suddenly rocket the discrepancy up unless you're losing way too many models to begin with.

You can also play SM without Tacs, but not without Scouts. That isn't a design flaw, that's part of the race. Worship control has always been a major factor in good Chaos play, and repair support is crucial regardless of faction.

First of all worship doesnt stack the point of the double worship is meaningless. Hmm never knew chaos was fancy of a lot of vechiles, since bloodcrushers heal under worship that does stack again. Double the bodies of giving free xp to the enemy sound a really good move. And again you are spending 40 power for 2 units that, one of them which you can dodge nade launcher and a mediocre melee suppressor, kinda means that chaos has no kill potential before t2, and raptors are an abysmal chasing unit. Triple heretic were with csm not just naked 3 tics and it works sorta if they gave less xp. Hillariously you cannot play SM without tacs mainly because you would have no dmg and an enemy can abuse that. In regards to high melee skill its necessary so they dont get specialed since they are all bunched up all the time.

[Kvn]

First of all worship doesnt stack the point of the double worship is meaningless. Hmm never knew chaos was fancy of a lot of vechiles, since bloodcrushers heal under worship that does stack again. Double the bodies of giving free xp to the enemy sound a really good move. And again you are spending 40 power for 2 units that, one of them which you can dodge nade launcher and a mediocre melee suppressor, kinda means that chaos has no kill potential before t2, and raptors are an abysmal chasing unit. Triple heretic were with csm not just naked 3 tics and it works sorta if they gave less xp. Hillariously you cannot play SM without tacs mainly because you would have no dmg and an enemy can abuse that. In regards to high melee skill its necessary so they dont get specialed since they are all bunched up all the time.

Worship chain. Chaos Lord is a perfect example of that. Through smart positioning and micro, you can get him shooting across the battlefield to tie up vital squads, or to help offset his slow chase and snag a retreat kill. Double Tics also works well with Sorc since they can stealth each other, either creating an infiltrated zone where the enemy has no way of getting at you besides charging in or waiting to get a detector, or allows one of your Tics to close on the enemy without getting shot at. The only Chaos hero that doesn't benefit from multiple Tics is the Plague Champ, but you don't really use those guys in fights anyway. They spend most of their time worshipping while your heavy hitters sit behind cover, or doomblasting AMS jumping in so that either your Havocs can resetup, or your PC can come in with the Sword to put the hurt on them.

Double the bodies means the enemy has a lot more pressure put on them. If done correctly, you'll actually bleed less given that it will force them to retreat earlier, and allow you to tie up more than one squad at a time. Of course, that all comes down to context.

You were probably gonna spend the power on them anyway sooner or later. Vanilla Tics were never good in the later game unless your control was top notch.

As for dodging the grenade launcher, you'd be surprised at how effective it can be. The flight time isn't the quickest, but it's a guaranteed knockdown on setup teams, and can do work on disrupting charging melee at medium range. The trick comes down to timing.

Chaos has lots of killing potential. Not sure what you're talking about. A large portion of it comes from your hero (Doombolts, Plague Sword/Grenade, Combi-Flamer, etc) but there's also Raptors who will dish out the damage against enemy ranged units. They might not be great at retreat killing, but they're still more than capable of wiping squads. CSM also put out a lot of damage in both ranged and melee, especially when supported. Your Tics are meant to act as a force multiplier for these units rather than do the job on their own. And Havocs with Autocannons don't even need an explanation.

Chaos vehicles are pretty common really. They offer such powerful killing power, and can make your other units shine. Maybe not seen as widely as they used to since people are gravitating more towards Plague Marines, but Dreadnoughts and Predators are still fielded pretty often. Not to mention that the Phobos is (from what I've seen) quite a bit more popular than the GUO at the moment. The Bloodcrusher isn't the only option.

2-3 Scouts into double Devs is a build that people do use, and which can be quite frustrating to deal with actually. Lots of ratting and avoiding engagements until the Devastators come out, allowing the SM to hold ground and defend their gen farms. Come T2, a quick Razorback or Dread with multi-repair support, maybe with a Libby for VoT gives their setup some much needed punch, which hits like a truck. Not an easy build to pull off by any means, but if you've got the micro for it, it can really hammer an opponent.

[Atlas]

2-3 Scouts into double Devs is a build that people do use, and which can be quite frustrating to deal with actually.

Wait, the Swift build actually became a thing?

[Kvn]

Wait, the Swift build actually became a thing?

Don't know if it's widespread enough to be considered a thing, but I've seen it on and off in 1v1 matches. Usually either works spectacularly, or falls flat on its face.

[Forestradio]

Wait, the Swift build actually became a thing?

The Swift build? lol...
Calling that the Swift build is such an insult, last time I checked it was Torpid who first experimented with that build (especially in mirror) and actually started beating people with it.

Also I know that Ace of Swords was a proponent of 3 scout-->asm builds against nids for a time (not sure if he still is), since it let the asm come out quicker which are the core of a lot of SM builds against tyranids.

So yeah, in elite it would be those 2 players who have had the most success with a pure 3 scout build (as far as I know anyways), maybe when Noisy plays SM again we'll see some more of the good old 3 scout tac build orders.

About tics, buff their starting doomblast damage to 18, make the AC increase it further to 20 and give the squad a 10% melee damage buff, and add some minor req increase on the GL upgrade. Tics fixed.

They were fine before actually and didn't need any changes, even so a redesign around a new lower cost isn't out of the question, but the nerfbat was applied a little bit too generously when the cost went down imo.

[Carnevour]

There's no point going t3 as chaos if we are not talking team games which I don't really care for. You have all the tools in t2 but to get to t2 you must survive and apply pressure because get what chaos army has to pretty much stay together to drive off an enemy and allow breathing space to cap and gain mapcontrol by lonesome csm get murdered by any melee squad tic get shredded by any form of shooti squads because shockingly chaos doesn't have good lone capping units that are fast and mobile and if you opponent isn't daft he will abuse it to the max. Sending scouts guardians hormagaunts and all other stuff that you cant even hope to repel with current tics. You can theorycraft as much as you want about current tics but try it on practise and you will see how a freaking squad of tsm will beat the crap out tics with doomblast in melee.

[Dark Riku]

Carnevour, you really have to stop overreacting. In short.
Tics are a screening tool. The way they were a counter to any melee squad right out of the gate was not fine.
I do find however that the damage nerf was an overnerf, that doesn't mean Chaos is useless now, far from it...
Any race has to stay together to win engagements versus the enemy's, also staying together, army...
More worship sources are never a bad thing, your opponents needs to force them all off... Rest was already covered above.
No good lonesome capping squad? have you ever tried KCSM? Even then multiple tics help you just fine with map control.
Don't use the doomblast for damage, that's the worst use for it right now, it's a suppression tool.

[Swift]

2-3 Scouts into double Devs is a build that people do use, and which can be quite frustrating to deal with actually.

Wait, the Swift build actually became a thing?

We all know Torpid copied me.

[Toilailee]

I think old tics were fine and based on one whopping 2.5 game as chaos I think they were overnerfed.

[Metal C0Mmander]

I think old tics were fine and based on one whopping 2.5 game as chaos I think they were overnerfed.

Oh well if we can give out our opinion after one match... I also played with them once and I found their lack of damage to be nowhere near as painful to them as their lack of health since I feel they wipe out easier. With that said I understand that heretics are supposed to be incredibly weak in the fluff. Still I wouldn't mind if they at least gave out less XP since even if they are less of a pain for your econnomy they will still loose models even more than before.

[Dark Riku]

Sure you can give your opinion after 1 match. But at least we now know it's with only one match played. Context matters.
And as stated before, they give as much XP as GM models. Doesn't seem something out of the ordinary.

[Metal C0Mmander]

And as stated before, they give as much XP as GM models. Doesn't seem something out of the ordinary.

Well keep in mind that guardsmen also have 25 more hp and don't have to get in melee to do damage. Mind you it becomes a complete reversal late game when heretics use worship support and fight enemies more carefully while guardsmen get reinforced by the dozen.

[BloatedChamp]

I agree, with the new changes and lower Heretic performance. It makes sense to reduce their exp contribution. Especially since their intent is to be fodder in the early game.

[saltychipmunk]

And as stated before, they give as much XP as GM models. Doesn't seem something out of the ordinary.

Well keep in mind that guardsmen also have 25 more hp and don't have to get in melee to do damage. Mind you it becomes a complete reversal late game when heretics use worship support and fight enemies more carefully while guardsmen get reinforced by the dozen.

this argument assumes that heretics share the same general role on the field as guardsman. they ... do... not. guardsman are a hybrid frontline / support/ damage sponge unit. heretics are supposed to a dedicated support unit with limited and i mean really limited counter initiation potential.

guardsman have more hp and more models because guardsman are supposed to get shot at alot and bleed alot , and reinforce for cheap alot. heretics shouldn’t really get shot at ever if they could help it. thus despite having less hp than guardsman it should be more rewarding to kill off heretics because you are punishing the chaos player for exposing a unit they should not have left exposed in the first place.

chaos have csm for the whole damage sponge thing. ig dont have csm.

[Tinibombini]

....chaos have csm for the whole damage sponge thing. ig dont have csm.

Too be fair, IG have a much better unit for the "whole damage sponge thing" - the sentinel, which doesn't bleed.

.

guardsman have more hp and more models because guardsman are supposed to get shot at alot and bleed alot , and reinforce for cheap alot.

Well tics actually have more models and reinforce for less than GM until you upgrade the GM (at least according to the Codex). So of the 3 characteristics you point out: (1) GM have more hp; (2) GM have more models; and (3) GM are cheaper to reinforce, only (1) is accurate. It seems like this is a pretty narrow distinction to say that tics are not supposed to bleed while GM are supposed to bleed. There must be other reasons why tics are not supposed to bleed...

[Metal C0Mmander]

And as stated before, they give as much XP as GM models. Doesn't seem something out of the ordinary.

Well keep in mind that guardsmen also have 25 more hp and don't have to get in melee to do damage. Mind you it becomes a complete reversal late game when heretics use worship support and fight enemies more carefully while guardsmen get reinforced by the dozen.

this argument assumes that heretics share the same general role on the field as guardsman. they ... do... not. guardsman are a hybrid frontline / support/ damage sponge unit. heretics are supposed to a dedicated support unit with limited and i mean really limited counter initiation potential.

guardsman have more hp and more models because guardsman are supposed to get shot at alot and bleed alot , and reinforce for cheap alot. heretics shouldn’t really get shot at ever if they could help it. thus despite having less hp than guardsman it should be more rewarding to kill off heretics because you are punishing the chaos player for exposing a unit they should not have left exposed in the first place.

chaos have csm for the whole damage sponge thing. ig dont have csm.

You must not play chaos a lot to say stuff like that. In T1 you often don't have any other choices but to have heretics fight and tie up squad (and thus bleed) especially if you're not a plague champion. Don't know how true it is now that tics are lot less efficient but it shouldn't change things that much.

[saltychipmunk]

Played enough to rank up to 60 twice through 2 rank reset bugs working on 3 now..... What you describe is a common start of game encounter not the whole game

[Metal C0Mmander]

Played enough to rank up to 60 twice through 2 rank reset bugs working on 3 now..... What you describe is a common start of game encounter not the whole game

Yeah and if you took the time to read my previous posts properly you'd have realised I said the exact same thing in one of them...

[saltychipmunk]

Then what's the issue here ?