Banshee scaling, or lack of

[ChokoBambus]

Before I start trying to argument this, I know that most of you are gonna roll your eyes and say that Eldar is fine, that banshees are fine and so on and so forth.

The truith is though, even though they are cheaper their lethality is less and their leaders are far more expensive. Furthermore, while they keep their interactions in tier1 vs other units, they fall flat on their face in tier2. And do not try to argument that they can get support from other squads, this is true for other races as well.

The closest unit comparison wise is the slugga squad. While banshees have a slight edge given the cost difference. But as soon as the first upgrade comes along sluggas become more of a threat in both direct combat and in gen bashing potential.

Come tier2 sluggas completely out scale them. The nob is both cheaper and far stronger and one would say that its orky for a unit to be stronger in melee, given the cost of upgrading banshees they need to have some oomph in tier2. Another thing is the availability of the wartruck scaling ork units extremely well into tier2, but thats a different topic entirely.

So my proposal:

- Instead of having two exlcusive upgrades we can have sequential upgrades
- Aspect of fleetness is the tier 1 upgrade that does the the same thing as it does now
- Aspect of strength is moved into tier 2 and provides the exarch with the executioner, while further increasing banshee HPs by 10-15% and damage by 10-15%.

The point is, banshees need to mater in tier 2 and fall off as they do now. However, one would need to pay for it. There are other squads that can purchase multiple upgrades to make them viable down the line. CSM, Tacs, ASMs, GM, etc.

Oh yeah, do something about the exarch positioning in the squad or its HP. Its always the first to die xD

[Lesten]

Cheaper rebuy for exarch (and other squad leaders) and problem fixed imo. Alternatively better positioning for her so she won't die first. Leveled banshees can still wreck faces in T2.

I often prefer dual swords on exarch over spear, but depends on matchup. Fleetness indirectly improves their survivability also.

I do agree about sluggas scaling much better.

[Dark Riku]

Banshees lethality hasn't been diminished. Only their toxic chasing potential has.
The banshee exarch has gotten a price increase because it offered way too much for its cost.
Leaders dying first is not a banshee only "problem". Need to position carefully.
Using your preposition on the linear upgrades would mean we won't see the dual blade exarch any more.
Now you have the choice if you want to do soft AV damage or more damage towards (S)HI and have the leap.

[ChokoBambus]

What you call toxic here, and in other topics, was on of the best parts of DoW2 as a game. Varying degrees of effectiveness in different situations. For example, ASMs were the best get into combat and disrupt melee unit, even if SM were a bit lacking at times, and banshees were the best chasers. Sluggas were the most cost effective brawlers once in combat.

What you call toxic is something that made absolute sense gameplay wise. Rangers one shotting low cost models was something made on purpose to provide an additional layer of skill to both snipe and counter.
Banshees retreat killing was made on purpose because it was an expensive and fragile melee unit that needed to be babysat but could punish a bad position harshly.
Orks being very explosive damage wise in tier1 but falling off in tier2 thus being given an ultra cheap wartruck to equalize was made on purpose. And a pleathora of other things.

What this mod has done was completely eliminate playstyles and streamline things. But in that streamlining the creators have forgot to do so till the end. Thus you have a starting squad , ahem Sluggas, become a powerhouse AND still retain the ultra cheap wartruck. Lets not forget the utter crap that is Eldar tier3 as it was in vanilla except D-cannons no longer explode stuff but in fact place a small AoE dot?? Is that toxic gameplay as well? All in an enviorment where Chaos can summon terminators, IG have new tier3 stuff and the usual SM or Ork tier3 spam.

And remember what was said to be the counter? Dont let him get there? Well, that is no longer the case because its all equal in tier 1 now a days. Dont talk to me about toxic gameplay. You know what is bad gameplay? Rangers not one shotting stuff and having to pew pew the enemy with their pea shooters while IG laugh at the damage.

[Dark Riku]

Banshees chasing your units across the map and deleting them might not have been toxic and unfun from your (Eldar only?) PoV but it was from mine and others.
Problem was banshees didn't just punish bad positioning. They punished almost any positioning.
Rangers one shotting models doesn't take any skill at all, point and click, instant reward.
Eldar T3 is amzing in Elite and retail. Yes, D-cans deleting squads without any possible counterplay is a very toxic design indeed.

[ChokoBambus]

Every melee squads effectiveness could have been described in three situations: initiation, brawling and chasing. Banshees were solid in initiation, pretty bleh while in general combat vs non ranged units and had great chasing potential. The point was not to get them INTO combat, the point was the keep them out of it up until the last minute where you would send them in and they would chase .

In this mod they have been streamlined into a general melee unit, and I do respect and do not dislike this. Its fine. Having said that, they scale pretty poorly compared to other melee squads.

Tier1 effectiveness is fine.

early tier2 effectiveness is fine

Later tier2 and tier3 is where they fall off significantly. Their leader is kind of crap no mater how you put it. At the very least it needs to be more durable ala slugga nob for how much it costs. And melee heavy is no longer a banshee exclusive thing. But I get what you are saying, that leaders dying is not an Eldar exclusive thing as a problem.

The point I am consistently trying to make is that due to a very specialized nature of the Eldar army rooster and lack of new more cost efficient late game units is something that punishes saving squads. They fall off significantly late tier 2 and tier 3.

Having multiple upgrades is not something that is not unheard of. tier1 upgrade, leader, tier 2 upgrade
-

[Ace of Swords]

Have you ever considered that, you know, perhaps, it's the slugga leader that's too strong and not the shees/exarch that suck?

Though, I was fine with shees having melee charge, but their original chasing potential was straight up pants on heads retarded, still I don't like their current leap though they do fine.

[ChokoBambus]

Quite honestly, I do not care either way which gets adjusted. But I would rather a new upgrade, even at a premium price, to scale up banshees then nerf a core ork squad.

[Asmon]

Ofc slugga Nob is too strong, but it has little to do with the topic.

Banshees are a fragile starting squad with no late upgrade to make up for their inherent stats, in a game where squad preservation is supposed to be a core mechanism. I'll gladly have some data from Caeltos about how he feels about squad preservation vs purchasing higher tier units.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Though, I was fine with shees having melee charge, but their original chasing potential was straight up pants on heads retarded, still I don't like their current leap though they do fine.

- Banshee leap breakdown time reduced 0.1 s to 0 (recover from leaps faster)

Has anybody noticed any changes in their leap-chase behavior now that Banshees recover from leaping faster? I always thought that this change was implemented to re-add some chase-potential again. In 2.4.2 leaping onto retreating units meant that they would not chase them for the duration it took them to recover from the leap (even if that was a very short interval).

[Rataxas]

I do not think that banshees are bad. In my opinion ppl just dont use them well. For me shees are more like unit created for defend instead of opening attack. Not sure if you know Chocko , but sluggas also cant charge in to melee vs 2 shotungs + TSM . They need heros support like warboss Boss Pole , Shootas Suppresion , mekboy with healing , or knob with stun nade. Its working the same with Eldar. Shees are fine as they are i would maybe change that exarch thing but thats not only problem only from shees , some other units got the same.

Point is eldar players dont use ranges much / any more cause they are nerfed rly hard right now. ( maybe too hard ? not sure about that im not suggesting anything here ) But still on some 2v2 / 1v1 maps ( i know balance you do for 1v1 ) if eldar will go double shuri + shees + some gates around its rly a pain in ass.

Also referring to T2 of eldar , try to use WG maybe ? Act right now they are amazing , they can simple rape most types of armors , cant be supressed and provides many combos with rest of eldar army. PPl are trying to mainly focused shees are the core of eldar army. Its not SM or Chaos. Eldar does not have something like that.

[Laplace's Demon]

Banshees chasing your units across the map and deleting them might not have been toxic and unfun from your (Eldar only?) PoV but it was from mine and others.
Problem was banshees didn't just punish bad positioning. They punished almost any positioning.
Rangers one shotting models doesn't take any skill at all, point and click, instant reward.
Eldar T3 is amzing in Elite and retail. Yes, D-cans deleting squads without any possible counterplay is a very toxic design indeed.

Can we put you down for a manticore nerf then Dark Riku? Maybe a general nuke nerf while we're at it... deleting is part of the game. the question is is the deleting balanced out

[Aguxyz]

Banshees chasing your units across the map and deleting them might not have been toxic and unfun from your (Eldar only?) PoV but it was from mine and others.
Problem was banshees didn't just punish bad positioning. They punished almost any positioning.
Rangers one shotting models doesn't take any skill at all, point and click, instant reward.
Eldar T3 is amzing in Elite and retail. Yes, D-cans deleting squads without any possible counterplay is a very toxic design indeed.

Can we put you down for a manticore nerf then Dark Riku? Maybe a general nuke nerf while we're at it... deleting is part of the game. the question is is the deleting balanced out

why nerf manticore? it doesn't insta delete squads unless you're blobbed, most nukes dont delete squads unless well placed

[saltychipmunk]

Banshees chasing your units across the map and deleting them might not have been toxic and unfun from your (Eldar only?) PoV but it was from mine and others.
Problem was banshees didn't just punish bad positioning. They punished almost any positioning.
Rangers one shotting models doesn't take any skill at all, point and click, instant reward.
Eldar T3 is amzing in Elite and retail. Yes, D-cans deleting squads without any possible counterplay is a very toxic design indeed.

Can we put you down for a manticore nerf then Dark Riku? Maybe a general nuke nerf while we're at it... deleting is part of the game. the question is is the deleting balanced out

did you seriously make a jab at an artillery unit whose wiping potential can be hard countered by the x button and some basic situational awareness? the only issue with the manticores is that many of the early dawn of war maps were clearly not designed to have long ranged artillery units in them. as evidenced by the fact that on several of these maps ig can hit 75% of the map while keeping their manticores in side their base....

but that can be addressed by asking for a change of map.

[Dark Riku]

Can we put you down for a manticore nerf then Dark Riku? Maybe a general nuke nerf while we're at it... deleting is part of the game. the question is is the deleting balanced out

Are you for real? °_O
You simply move out of the way, or hit retreat if you are a setupteam or are snared, resulting in the manticore doing almost nothing to your units.
Nukes cost 500 red, are in T3, both players have access to a nuke and it's also not something you use from T1 throughout the game They are nukes...

[Laplace's Demon]

Whether you like the comparison or not, the point is that complaining that a unit 'deletes' other units allowing little chance to play around it is not a valid concern given how common 'deleting' potential actually it in this game.

I do think manti is op tho, but that's a different thread...

And while we're jumping the shark, why the hell doesn't doesn't the whirl wind do friendly knockback when most other artillery does? SM privilege is the answer, friends.

I'm done

[ChokoBambus]

The same reason Drop pods are super strong and cheap. Overcompensation for SM sort of sucking in retail.

[Tex]

SM drop pod is a huge T1 boon for SM, on this you are absolutely correct. I also feel like scout regen is off the charts. With that said, every faction has their strengths and weaknesses at different timings.
With the stronger T1, and also nothing but T2 buffs for SM afaik in recent history, it does make me think that a couple of things could use a touch of penalty... (no need to go any further off topic here)

Anyway, in terms of artillery not having friendly fire, just look at the zoanthrope, and then I think you will immediately stop complaining about the whirlwind .

[Dark Riku]

Whether you like the comparison or not, the point is that complaining that a unit 'deletes' other units allowing little chance to play around it is not a valid concern given how common 'deleting' potential actually it in this game.

You don't make any sense whatsoever. You're comparing a T1 power free squad to T2 artillery pieces and T3 nukes!
Banshees got nerfed for the same reasons OPS got nerfed. They could delete squads with no effort and with too little room for counter play.
Toxic and anti-fun gameplay for everyone involved.

And while we're jumping the shark, why the hell doesn't doesn't the whirl wind do friendly knockback when most other artillery does? SM privilege is the answer, friends.

You mean like the zoans that don't do friendly fire? Or like most other artilleries that do massive damage? O wait a minute the Whirlwind does barely any damage at all ...

I'm done

One can only hope, but I'm sure you'll disappoint us all.

[Lichtbringer]

A bit offtopic, but I don't want to make a Thread for this.^^

In the recent Adila vs Tex game from Indrid, we could see very nicely how detrimantal friendlyfire of Artillery can be. Adila had 2 Fireprisms, and had them most of the time in focused blast mode, even though Tex never had a single vehicle against them. Just because when he had them in the wide mode, they always disrupted and damaged his own units. Which is especially dangerous when the Forcecommander is knockback immune and can annihilate the banshees should the wide shot hit the melee brawl and knock the Banshees down. Then, the Fireprisms couldn't disrupt the ranged blob effectively.

To be fair, Fireprisms are micro intensive, and if you have 2 off them, you almost have no choice except for setting them on fire and forget and keeping them back. You almost can't manually aim them at the ranged blob then, and if you leave them on wide shot you run the risk that they autotarget the melee when you don't manage them constantly.

Anyway, that doesn't mean anything should be changed, but them doing friendlyfire is a HUGE detriment. (Same for Plasmacannons btw, I can't count how often I have them seen wipe allied/own squads).


I also sadly found out, that the Kineticshot of the Rangers does not only do the obvious friendly knockback, but also friendly damage. )=

[saltychipmunk]

And while we're jumping the shark, why the hell doesn't doesn't the whirl wind do friendly knockback when most other artillery does? SM privilege is the answer, friends.

You mean like the zoans that don't do friendly fire? Or like most other artilleries that do massive damage? O wait a minute the Whirlwind does barely any damage at all ....

to be fair , it doesn’t need too. this might not be something to worry about in 1v1 matches. but in team games where it is hard to flank and ambush artillery units ( especially on those small 3v3 maps .. god those maps were not meant for long ranged arty) units like the ww can be a game winner simply because of how well it fucks with light infantry dominated / set up dominated races (such as eldar). Nothing ruins a fragile control freaks day like an infinite disruption spam .

I have seen a few examples where the ww was pretty much the reason why a team won. it took some pretty shameless exploitation of a few inherently flawed mechanics. but it is there.

really it is the same concept as manticores. sure you can evade or retreat from a manticore barrage. but the fact is that you are forced to react to it. being able to influence the battlefield from a safe distance is very potent.

[Crewfinity]

And while we're jumping the shark, why the hell doesn't doesn't the whirl wind do friendly knockback when most other artillery does? SM privilege is the answer, friends.

You mean like the zoans that don't do friendly fire? Or like most other artilleries that do massive damage? O wait a minute the Whirlwind does barely any damage at all ....

to be fair , it doesn’t need too. this might not be something to worry about in 1v1 matches. but in team games where it is hard to flank and ambush artillery units ( especially on those small 3v3 maps .. god those maps were not meant for long ranged arty) units like the ww can be a game winner simply because of how well it fucks with light infantry dominated / set up dominated races (such as eldar). Nothing ruins a fragile control freaks day like an infinite disruption spam .

I have seen a few examples where the ww was pretty much the reason why a team won. it took some pretty shameless exploitation of a few inherently flawed mechanics. but it is there.

....arent fire dragons immune to weapon knockback?

[saltychipmunk]

True, but they are also a short range unit. if they are already in combat range of a ww. then honestly it doesn’t matter at that point. i see it as no different than say a melta storm trooper squad infiltrating and killing a manticore , or a burowed RA with corrosive devourer murdering a fire prism that thought it was safe.

The whole point of these units is being able to strike from extreme safety . which again goes back to my jab at map design. it is an undeniable fact that having a unit that can influence a good part of the map from inside the safety of its own base is... probably something Relic did not account for