IG imbalances

[Soberson]

the new HWT is really good now esp with LC

This response might as well be automated

What if I am not playing LC? What if HWT is way to susceptible to AoE now? What if I had too much fun playing against PC already but now it's a literal comedy gold? Nobody just stands and shoots at HWT anyway so please don't give me "they have a lot more hp" again.

[Aguxyz]

the new HWT is really good now esp with LC

This response might as well be automated

What if I am not playing LC? What if HWT is way to susceptible to AoE now? What if I had too much fun playing against PC already but now it's a literal comedy gold? Nobody just stands and shoots at HWT anyway so please don't give me "they have a lot more hp" again.

more models so they survive longer, like for inq for example you could use interrogators armor for when its getting attacked on retreat if it had 4 models it will most likely die by a well placed retreat nade but with 6 they're a bit more spread out with more hp so they're more survivable. It's kinda a pain to kill them atm imo. Dont forget 2 extra model means more dps even it just flashlights shooting at you

[HARRYY]

Lol aguxyz , yeah tjey are less susceptible againsz Retreat nades. Fantastic! But get face-raped by immolator and comparable things more frequently. Good trades here. Attention !! Good trades here!


I dont like the new hwt. the lower HP per model often results in loosing models pretty quickly now, even on retreat. Would be curious if the rejnforcement costs are tweaked correctly, since its only said upkeep remained the same in total.

Generelly with models dying earlier I noticed hwts are mire threatened to get squad wiped. I learned to Retreat mich earlier, if you don't have a chim or a deckd out Bunker around. This is a slight dynamic change I actually don't like. Iosing control.

The indirect LC execution-buff is nothing really crazy as people try to make it SEEM. Oh whyyy? L2P noob itts CRAzzzyyy BAffff!! -Generally you don't use execute on a hwt(Vanilla) much in T1. It's better used situationally on GM or something with a higher damage Output., optionally catas in melee. You don't buy the hwt for damage, you buy it for for supression.
When is execution used efficiebtly on hwt? Mostly on lascannon/autocannon and then you have it either way more in back. If you have 3 or 5 models to execute doesn't make a real difference: in one encounter you can only execute one member.

I don't like the trade-off. It feels more squishy now. IG is already fragile as fuxjk. Even ogryns.

[Tex]

Harry, again, please use it before you toot the horn over it.

Execute on the HWT in T1 is EXTREMELY strong. It means that they are doing double damage with their long range modifier which actually ends up being a very respectable amount. Any damage you can dish out in T1 as IG should be relished.

[HARRYY]

For me , the trade was not really Needed as explained above. ID like to have it more tough.

The damage increase on hwt is only viable if the opponent is getting close(r) and not willing to Retreat when under supression fire anyway. Ok maybe a shootout from far away is shifting a bit. But please don't forget , you cannot Retreat it anymore, any jumptrooper coming up will wipe the squad.. It's all pretty virtual because we have a game with lots of Counters. Itsveerry situational to execute hwt but I have to admjt i must Test it more. High risk tho on top without being able to retreat for the duration.

Further what would you say about the squishyness Tex?? Higher risk of squadwipe experienced?Let me guess? It's all fine , notjkbg changed. Im having a Placebo it seems.

Chheers

[Soberson]

Harry, again, please use it before you toot the horn over it.

Execute on the HWT in T1 is EXTREMELY strong. It means that they are doing double damage with their long range modifier which actually ends up being a very respectable amount. Any damage you can dish out in T1 as IG should be relished.

Hey Tex, big fan of yours, got posters and everything but does

Tex: .........................................................................

remind you of everything? Maybe a particular game you had recently? Against an Eldar player?

Your HWT got hurt BADLY by those grenades so I would think you are the first who'd propose revert HWT hp's to "normal" state. It's not like you couldn't execute HWT before, I am sure that ability was still used situationally before nerf has been applied. So why fix what isn't broken?

[Crewfinity]

the small subsection of games that are casted replays are no basis for a system of balance proposals -_-

[Tex]

@Tarre

I have to admit, I was quite frustrated at that moment. But I think this is where the context needs to be filled in by the source (me). I was more so frustrated my own play, rather than the new iteration of the HWT. If you watch the replay again, you can see that I did a few things that almost cost me the game, truly, I had to fight really hard to claw my way back into that one.

Here's what I was doing wrong in regards to the HWT:
1) I was relying on old information. In one instance, I let my HWT eat 2 full grenades because I'm used to them being able to take it on the chin when they have the shield upgrade in place.
2) I was desperately trying to get a final salvo out before I retreated my squad. It is true, in their old iteration, they would have probably lived, but this again my fault for sloppy play.
3) I was positioning and controlling my HWT poorly in some instances. You can see that there were times where the salvos were fired at the wrong targets, and also times where my HWT's were not being placed in more ideal positions. This cost me dearly.

So yeah, I really appreciate your support and I love that you can see I was pretty damned frustrated, but I always want people to know that I try my best to take accountability for winning or losing. I think we all need to use this change and focus on the new benefits it brings, rather than wish we had our old HWT back. If it doesn't work out, I'm 100% positive that the change will be reverted.

Last thing, just in case it wasn't mentioned before, I just wanted to show that there is a benefit for non LC IG players as well. Outside of the HWT having more resistance to strait up pew pew, the reinforcement cost and extra staying power from this reinforcement makes huge difference in the deep tier 2 portion of the game. I know a lot of IG players favor 2x HWT's now for the auto-cannons, and truly, combining them with a med bunker (or chim) is very cheap and effective. You get a lower reinforcement cost, super fast reinforcement time, and a higher rate of regen from having more models.

Hope this helps

[Nurland]

I am not the biggest fan of the new HWTs. They are less susceptible to jump troops which alreade weren't the best thing ever against IG and they are get fucked over by pdves, GL, blastmasters, autocannons etc pretty hard.

[DandyFrontline]

I am not the biggest fan of the new HWTs. They are less susceptible to jump troops which alreade weren't the best thing ever against IG and they are get fucked over by pdves, GL, blastmasters, autocannons etc pretty hard.

Warlocks Destructor + immolate is killing blow for IG HWT now tho

[Ordie]

It seems like the Inquisitor's Holy Brazier is too strong; nearly an automatic upgrade.

For 20 power you get a 50 DPS power weapon (good against heavy armor races), a radius 18 AoE damage effect, that deals 4 piercing dps (effective against light armor races; for comparison a tactical flamer is 8.75 dps with radius 6), and a 20% damage debuff (that appears to affect everything including vehicles).

Trying to micro away from it is troublesome because it has an enormous effect range, and if you are not observing it when it is cast, the animation does not display. Assuming you can micro away from it, you will often be forced out of cover, which leads to a lost engagement against IG. In later tiers with the Mandate or Purgatus, there is simply no stopping her from getting where she wants, and then being able to lock out a large area of the map.

It has a 30 second duration and a 40 second cooldown meaning that there is only 10 seconds when spell isn't in place or ready to be placed and, because it costs 40 energy, and the Inquisitor regens energy at 1 per second at level 1, there is nothing stopping her from using the ability at will.

My only thoughts on how to rebalance would be to either alter or remove some of these pieces. (Remove the damage on the spell, increase the energy cost, only debuff squads she hits?) I suppose it could also have the weapons cost increased, though given IG's fairly power light t1, it would be worth buying at almost any power cost.

What do other people think about this particular piece of wargear?

Edit: Corrected mistakes. Thanks Sorcerer!

[CSM Emperor]

u must be new to dow 2 or havent played much.

[Caeltos]

u must be new to dow 2 or havent played much.

Hardly a constructive or elaborate post. If you don't have anything productive to post, then don't post at all. The person you responded to provided arguements for his/her thoughts on said matter. If you disagree(which is fine) then at least elaborate on the matter.

[Psycho]

a radius 30 AoE damage effect, that deals 4 piercing dps (effective against light armor races; for comparison a tactical flamer is 8.75 dps with splash), and a 20% damage debuff (that appears to affect everything including vehicles).

The actual AoE damage radius is 18, according to the codex. The debuff is still 30.

[ChokoBambus]

I am not sure wheter the IG problems are based within the IG rooster or within other races. Elite gives out much more options for IG to counter setup teams, given how Catachans are cheaper and you got spotters.

[HARRYY]

I am not sure wheter the IG problems are based within the IG rooster or within other races. Elite gives out much more options for IG to counter setup teams, given how Catachans are cheaper and you got spotters.

it's actually both.

Take care long post ^^ ..... (-> OK, I cut it down a bit)
I’d also say spotters need something to transition better into T2/T3. They are dying pretty fast, especially beyond T1. I have two suggestions here (see below).

Further, T2 is a big problem for IG because everything starts being shaky. All races have easy&intuitive AV-Upgrades, but IG is a house of glascannons and overall too reliant on synergies to counter vehicles, or suppression. IG-Stuff being able to do the killing blow often needs to be retreated too early compared to other races etc. Vehicles & suppression being a main weakness. I admit IG can be easily overpowered with buff/tweaks on those weaknesses – but for the moment they are the most unforgiving race. IG is still having their strength no question, but the glascannon-factor and the heavy dependence on synergies makes IG the most high-risk/high-reward race to play.

The Vehicle-weakness mostly comes into play IF you don’t field Melta-Storms. After Melta-Storms initial purpose (countering a vehicle) they become more and more annoying to use because of their low-range and thus cost you lots of requisition – maybe cost you the match in some matchups: throwing cheap vehicles against IG is brutally effective just to force AV. For example against Orks/Chaos. Against Orks you’d like to stay in safe range with AK-Storms instead of Melta-Storms; and against Chaos you really don’t want to get close with them. But actually also against SM/OM/Eldar you'd prefer AK-Storms on the Long-run. I just love AK-Storms. Another point regarding AV-Options is that the Sentinel is always at the brink of death in T2 since there is generally more on the battlefield. Vanilla had this sometimes-useful “Extra-Armor” Upgrade to Sentinels which was removed in ELITE (why?). In some matchups you struggle for ability-knockbacks to win time (especially if you don’t play OP INQ with “crippling volley”/”assail”). This is the case against T3 NOBZ, seers or melee-Tyranids. I’d love to see “stomp” work against those. Considering a T2/T3 Upgrade? Back to AV: Lascannon/autocannon often have to re-setup because of their natural counters and then its over. You cant deal enough AV damage to win the encounter/or kill the vehicle…. retreat. Then often IG falls like a card-house….. unable to re-setup. Lose lots of VictoryPoints. I have several Ideas here:
-it would be interesting to see Sentinels past mid T2! Fine-tune them a bit
-Stormtroopers being even more adaptive
-INQ being nerfed, esp. assail

Talking about glascannons, Ogryns once made a good appearance concerning the glascannon-problem. They were something you could ….eh. you could put your head on. They drawn some attention since they've been a threat and allowed your forces to Setup / or resetup.... Now in ELITE they’re only clumsy clowns. Combined with bionic eye/interrogator/medpack they CAN become useful, but if you fail to raze all gen-farms with their support .... you lose against T3-Infantry / T3-Tank anyway. So, why field them at all???? There is a little reason from an ECONOMIC POV since Ogryns require A LOT of power: 90 Initial, then 25 for the bonehead and 25 power since they HEAVILY rely on supportive-wargear= 140 power in total. As said, they are clumsy and their HP is also decimated pretty fast despite they’re having SHI. Most of the time, Ogryns appear half-dead in their final destination, when they could dish out some damage. If theres something melee-ish around Ogryns can just retreat right away or go down.. As said, if you don't manage to rape the whole map with them, the opponent soon enough will have his T3 Infantry / or a T3 Tank incoming and by then you can type “gg”. The Problem with ogryns: initial power cost since they rely on synergy + wargears to make them actually work. I’d tweak something on their power-cost, they’re not worth it currently. Generally, some power-costs are too high along the IG-Roster, especially since everything feels like a light-Version of what it once was in vanilla.

I was thinking of various Options to improve IG-Options. This is just a collection of IDEAS to solve power-hungry IG-play and soften/equalize some imbalances on the big picture

Inquisitor
-crippling volley range from 30 to 35 (easier to apply) but duration from 6 to 4 seconds
-Holy Pyre duration from 30 to 20 seconds, remove detection
-Execrurators from 140/20 to 130/30
Lord Commisar
-inspire courage / executions of all kind: no-retreat duration cut from 10 seconds to 6 seconds.
Artillery Spotters
- entering stealthed-state if you don’t move them (as catachans) or at least they reinforce faster (from 5 seconds to 2 seconds per model)
-adding slight HP with their T2/T3 upgrade
-consider adding a grenade-launcher (per upgrade?) for the remaining two members. Aim is to make them useful, inflict some little splash damage when you can affort to reveal them
Guardsmen
-Plasma-Gun from 25 to 20 power
Sentinel
- additional T2 armor-upgrade for plus 100 HP (for adequate price)
- considering “extra-armor” from vanilla being re-introduced.
Banewolf
-Consider making him buildable for any Commander, making it possible to react.
-Consider changing damage-type for initial appearance, then revert to current state per upgrade (other variant)
Stormtroopers
-You can re-equip KITS for 125/25 (or for adequate price)
Ogryns
-power cost from 90 to 60 power (tweak reinforcement-costs)
-upkeep from 12.75 to 10
- “doing weapon knockback in radius 6 every 5 seconds” tweaked from every 5 seconds to 3 seconds to see actually happen at times (other variant)

Chimera
-limit chimera to 1
-power cost from 60 to 50
-Mobile base power cost from 25 to 20
-upkeep from 25.5 to 22
bunker
-if possible, decrease general SIZE of it.

[The_Convertant]

I don't think inquisitor should get a radius stun for just 20 power, but straight nerfing xbow to the bottom doesn't help. 4 second immobilize is underwhelming. It needs a redesign.

Inquisitor has way too many CCs in general. Playing inquisitor is weird as the rest of the army is basically following the roflstomp train. However as a commander she has no positive buff for her army otherthan making one squad of them invisible, she needs those abilities. Just not the no-fun-allowed stuns, but some other ways to help her own men.

I think xbow's ability should be replaced by another annoying ability. Like maybe debuff units within an area or a mini mind war (smaller radius and disable melee attack only). Assail can be kept but the cost should be raised to 30-35 power. It is so useful that even if it costs 35 power it is still worth for purchase.
And can we give more love to the servo skull?

[Soberson]

Would asking for an sentinel armor "heavy infantry -> vehicle" T2 upgrade be too radical? "Extra armor" is way too questionable since it doesn't bump overall hp and it's likely going to cost power if implemented anyway

[The_Convertant]

Would asking for an sentinel armor "heavy infantry -> vehicle" T2 upgrade be too radical? "Extra armor" is way too questionable since it doesn't bump overall hp and it's likely going to cost power if implemented anyway

vehicle armour sentinel means it can walk onto someone's face and stomp/chase down enemy low health vehicles without worrying about small arm fire. It will also prove difficulties for soft vehicle counter (missile tacs, for example) to hunt it down due to its fast rotation and movement speed.

[HARRYY]

Good Points.

Possible fixes for the Problem Convertant mentioned.... such upgrade must be pricy! And certainly lower Sentinels movingspeed.
Personally I'd prefer the extra armor upgrade from vanilla, but with less "building time".

Anyway,I dont know if real vehicle_armor would conflict with the general Imperial Guard fluff?

[The_Convertant]

Good Points.

Possible fixes for the Problem Convertant mentioned.... such upgrade must be pricy! And certainly lower Sentinels movingspeed.
Personally I'd prefer the extra armor upgrade from vanilla, but with less "building time".

Anyway,I dont know if real vehicle_armor would conflict with the general Imperial Guard fluff?

It will, unfortunately.
In reality sentinels never have the extra armour upgrade, and their default armour is like being naked in general. (10 on both side, even termaguants can shoot it down with ease)

[Dark Riku]

@Harry

Spotters transition just fine, see all the other posts with reasons.

IG's AV is as easy and intuitive as other races' AV. If a Chaos lascannon gets jumped on, it also has to fall back or be supported. An IG lascannon for example can hide inside a chimera and reposition while the rest of the army deals with the threat. A real vehicle usually requires more than 1 source of AV, that's normal. The IG heroes can also help a huge deal with AV with either buffs or their own AV source.

After melta storm have done their job, and the enemy's force does not allow them to be effective in combat they are very great for capping and be a constant threat to the enemy genfarm. If range is a problem with them you either keep them as a counter initiator with their damage or infiltrate in a big arc if there are detectors.

Extra armor was never useful in vanilla. It was just a waste of resources. If the vehicle was not full HP it would get healed up by paying a hefty price and if it was at full HP you'd get unrepairable HP that would get stripped of first.

The sentinel stomp works just fine versus the units mentioned.

From my experience a heavy T2 always wins versus a single T3 unit and T2 is very much capable of staying up to speed with T3.

Ogryns are the replacement for a walker in the IG roster. Same with walkers, if you use them wrong you won't get any mileage out of them.
You also need to support walkers, doesn't mean walkers suddenly should be considered for a price buff as they already cost ~120 power while you need to tie up up the AV squads by lets say jump units? ~50 power. 170 power! that's not how this works... they all have an impact on the game already.


Crippling volley does not need a buff.
Inspire courage is already insanely powerful. 100% buff for 15 secs and breaks retreat, for only 10 sec of being unretreatable already in Elite!
Spotters don't need a buff. What good will a faster reinforce do to them? They are not meant to be in combat anyway.
GM are already the most cost effective range unit. 20 power plasma guns is a very big no-no.
Bane wolf is already one big mes. Giving it to all IG heroes would be just /wrists.
Stormtroopers are already good as they are, re-equipping is a commander/SM (/OM) thing.
Ogryns at 60 power is way too low. Ogryn ability is fine as it is.
What good does limiting the chimera to 1 do? Absolutely nothing. You only get 1 as it is anyway. Power cost has to stay up. It's extremely powerfull for IG.
Bunker size is fine. How much smaller do you want it to be?

T2 sent HP buff might be considered. But I still don't see why you'd ever get it over other things in T2. If something like this would be implemented it will only get bought on full popcap. Anything that kills the sent without the extra HP will kill it with the added 100 HP.

[HARRYY]

@ Dark Riku

Ok, basicly you just pick on everything and say it's fine/good as is, because you say so or some1 else said something 1000 years ago. IG is lacking in T2 and has a very limited approach on the game from there. Slight tweaks need to bring some units into line so you can vary a bit in the build-orders. Please see IG in context of its history for a second: IG was designed to have a strong T1 in vanilla. Accordingly all the T2 stuff had more impact, because they hit the field earlier. Now the situation is like IG has no upperhand in T1 anymore and their T2 is starting more "equal". accordingly all their T2 units have less impact, and infact their T2 units have been nerfed on top.
-chimera is more threatened through veratily anti-all units.
-ogryns ....
-stormtroopers, well.... as said, melta-storms are hampering. IG needs their range now....
-manticore good tweak

They dont have a single unit they can tank with or rely on. Nothing.
Just calling out "synergy is fine, all have to use it" , "lets just go capping" , "just compare them to walkers" is just belittling IG T2 struggle (and you dont seem to play them at all). In most matches you cannot leave T2 as well (Ok, im writing this mainly from a LC-perspective). Then you say "oh stomp is just fine against nobs"... its not fine! Further, if you read the crippling-volley-suggestion for INQ as a buff, then I really don't what you're doing here. You seem to just step in and say "NO" all the way


Seriously:
-spotters cant out-reinforce against noxios Cloud in the HQ, that's why
-would it break artillery spotters give them some HP, or camouflage? - Id say no.
-if sent armor was so shitty, would it hurt to bring it back? - id say no.
-no1 re-equips? TacticalMarines do. Stormtroopers could be also considered a tactical unit. Why not if the price is right? Considering shift in IGs T2 impact, it would make sense to give Stormtroopers options. I mean, THEY ARE STORMTROOPERS. Deranking them to cappers is funny tho. Using them defensively ... wow. thats an approach yeeha. gen-razers? Ok, thats a point! But still, facing the new threats in ELITE, who would mind to not make them versatile. We could revert it later if it doesnt work! or not? its a mod!
-limit 1 to chimera has to be seen in context of the proposed power cost reduction. avoiding a possible spam. come on, that was obvious. ah, well. its fine.
-bunker size should solve pathing-issues. size decrease by 25% maybe? Would it hurt you? -would you lose when your opponent has more control over the game???
-100 extra HP for the sent would give it a better chance for later on when you need to stomp as a last maneuver etc before retreat. Id its not breaking a thing.
-Ogryns. Ah. you know what? fuck em. I dont care. never been a big fan anyway. They were so OP in vanilla. TBH, they've only been good because of their impact when they hit the field early, as a first T2 unit. Now they cant handle bloodletters..... The proposed change for the KB-trigger is also not a big deal. "its fine as is" - same flowery phrase

I guess its better to say eveything is just fine and go smash teamgames

[Ace of Swords]

There isn't much to say then, just play freeman in a 1v1 mirror and you'll get rekt, or play him with OP SM while he's LC and let's see how that works out for you, he knows how to use spotters and if anything they are borderline too strong since they can easily counter 2 setup teams for 30 power, with stupidly cheap GM now as well, your bleed is highly diminished making the synergy between GMs and chimera extremely powerful, thus making your T2 great, manti got cheaper as well although at the price of an upgrade if you want the old performance, ogryns got some cost reductions through time and they still perform incredibly well, especially with LG and LC.

IG T1 is still strong as well, they only really struggle against chaos atm but not much considering that NM were recently nerfed, the havok doesn't insta suppress anymore and for T2 the plague cloud and LTGB were greatly nerfed overtime when compared to retail.

[HARRYY]

yeah, maybe I lack adaption from vainilla-thinking. still wishful on some stuff.


Btw i cannot see Freeman beating some1 good.

[Dark Riku]

@Harry

Yeah, because I say so with my experience and the explanations given to them. Take that as you wish.
You on the other hand are not giving proper explanations and seemingly are comparing things from retail in vacuum without having the whole picture.

Chimera is not more threatened than it was in the past. example: Bloodletters don't do heavy melee. A threat less! What is threatening it more? If, for example, you'd say the powerfist on raptors, I'd lol for compositional and actually getting them in melee with the chimera reasons.
Learn how to use Ogryns, it's really not hard at all. For example, Ogryns with an aura of discipline LC.
Melta troopers are not hampering at all. Already covered: counter initiate, power bashers, cap (which is very important in 1v1's, I don't see how that's funny).

No tanking unit? See Ogryns above. GM with any reinforce point, INQ invulnerable shield, stubbron LC, Leman Russ (unkillable tank pretty much), ...
Most serious 1v1's stay in T2 for most races. It's how 1v1 works. Looks can be deceiving. You do not know what I do.
You said stomp did not work against said units. While I merely pointed out that the ability does work on them. It is fine.
Yes I say no all the way because all those suggestions are very bad imo.

Would it break artillery spotter if you give them more HP? No. Do they need it though? No.
- Would it break CSM if they got 30 more HP? No. Do they need it though? No. See how that works?
Because the old armor upgrade brings nothing for IG, it's useless, takes up space and is only there as a trap for newer players.
Because Elite takes balance serious, we do not want a whole patch that stays in place for months to have broken storm troopers just for the fun of it.
I already stated the exceptions being SM (/OM) as they are never specialised. Storms on the other hand get very specialised and good in their role.
Yeah, because you want to spam that Chimera now that it costs 10 less power, right? NO...
I never said 100HP would break a thing for the sent either...


Give your reasoning behind things instead of these what for me just come across as "nub complain, L2P" reasons.
Also read more thoroughly. Some things in here are just corrections on misquotes...
Listen to Ace, smart man.

Btw i cannot see Freeman beating some1 good.

Fr33man is capable of beating good players. Play him a couple of times yourself if you don't believe us.
If you consider yourself good, he'll have beating someone good Or try Noisy.

[Fr33man1800]

Btw i cannot see Freeman beating some1 good.

Okay the duel is settled then i've added you for 1vs1's BO3 and i will post the games

[Codex]

Fr33man has proved himself in tournaments, even I know this when I've been gone for months and months >.<

[Oddnerd]

You just spoke ill of the guy who wins the LC v INQ matchup easily.

I guess this means no one is good at IG.

[Aguxyz]

GRUDGE MATCH