Ork balance

[Aguxyz]

Im here to talk about ork balance as of today and some few concerns over a few commander war gears that need buff/nerf. Ive been playing orks for a while and playing each commander every now and then so heres what i think need some changes.

-Knob knife does a lot for just 20 power maybe a cost increase to 25 power and it should be fine.

-Warboss Cyborg implants is hardly ever purchased because it gets out performed by spiky armor. i suggest giving cyborg impants a 0.15 hp regen because there's 0 reason's to by cyborg implants unless you're fighting termis,double genes, and for spiky armor, spiky goes to 0.25 hp regen, 200 hp from 0.35 regen and 250 hp and make it 25 power.

-For mek tuffa beam is really good atm so i suggest 50% dmg reduction instead of 75% or lose knockback or suppression resistance.

-Right now electric armor isnt bought as much because it gets out performed by batter pack so i suggest things to make it more useful either lower energy drain,give more hp to mek, or make it 25 power.

Now its time to talk about the most complained about leader slugga nob. I suggest a 25 hp reduction on him or lose 5 dps or even both just to balance him out. The rest of the ork army is fine as it is but here are just a few concerns.

EDIT: Just made it a bit more readable - Atlas

[Tex]

Bravo, I agree with everything you listed.

[Cyris]

Everything but the Cyborg Implants sounds good to me too. Spikey Armor over-preforms - mixing a thorough T1 melee shutdown with high health and regen for a low price has been too much for a while now. Like the BC, this T1 armor shuts out all other armor slot upgrades, and arguably outperforms the T3 heavy armor for cost. Buffing Implants is fine, but using Spikey as the target is not. I'd love to see a buff to one and a nerf to the other go hand in hand, like the old TM change to bring Artificer's and Bionics in closer. Unfortunately they are both basically melee counter wargears, the big difference I see is Implants combos a bit better with a full melee rushdown build (allowing your sluggas/storms to tear shit up) and can stun Termies. Differentiating their roles more seems important?

Oh, and upkeep on Stikkbommaz - does it really need to be so high? It's a niche, 12-pop squad with 40.8 upkeep, while a "normal" 12 pop squad would be 30.6 Maybe it's degenerate in 3v3, but I've never had a problem with this unit since retail when it seemed to wipe full health squads. Though, maybe I should start using it as AV when I play ork...

PS: Thankyou so much for formatting this Atlas. I 100% didn't read it when it was a wall of text

[Caeltos]

Good point Cyris. Stikkbommaz does have a higher upkeep value then the normal values. (Actually by quite alot)

Considering our early-tweaks to Stikkbommaz, their upkeep value should have maybe have been normalized.

[Carnevour]

A propose Nerf to the knob is a mistake. Considering that in Elite detection is pretty much handed to a lot of squads for ''free'' without a risk of the leader dying straight away you have a situation where he becomes quite useless as a lone hero on the prowl with a knife and just can get kited. In elite being infiltrated is kinda pointless. Dont let me get started on the bullshit of eldar guardians having detection for the whole squad not even a leader.

[Atlas]

A propose Nerf to the knob is a mistake. Considering that in Elite detection is pretty much handed to a lot of squads for ''free'' without a risk of the leader dying straight away you have a situation where he becomes quite useless as a lone hero on the prowl with a knife and just can get kited. In elite being infiltrated is kinda pointless. Dont let me get started on the bullshit of eldar guardians having detection for the whole squad not even a leader.

But avengers do have a leader that grants detection, not the squad. He isn't even die last.

The problem with the knife is its ability to erase a model of your choosing basically. I think Elite in general has tried to even out the damage spikes in general.

[GuruSkippy]

A propose Nerf to the knob is a mistake. Considering that in Elite detection is pretty much handed to a lot of squads for ''free'' without a risk of the leader dying straight away you have a situation where he becomes quite useless as a lone hero on the prowl with a knife and just can get kited. In elite being infiltrated is kinda pointless. Dont let me get started on the bullshit of eldar guardians having detection for the whole squad not even a leader.

I do have to agree that, after some point in the game, hide da boyz become very situationnal compared to the other ork global. And with kommandoz in t3, you only have CDB if your opponent is smart enough to have detection.
Though, if knide is OP, as to be nerfed, but I don't know, I never use it.

[ChokoBambus]

Knob is only OP if the enemy faction has poor detection. Its the reason Knob has been historicaly very strong vs Eldar for example. I would say that some of the Ork stuff is over performing though. Burnas + Nob turn sluggas into monsters and coupled with the very cheap truck it becomes kind of silly. Knob initial DPS is kind of silly as well.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I think the strength of the Kommando Nob starting weapon comes from the fact that it has 100% fire on the move. Damagewise it is like the CLs Combi-Flamer (although the K-Nob fires more often). I do not agree that Rangers are a useless unit (as you constantly describe them) but do feel somewhat weaker against Orks since Shootas detect as well and have high dps, so they can pick of Rangers very fast. Since Rangers have superior range though, all you need is good micro (as in general with Eldar) and you should be fine. Don't solely rely on DA-Exarch detection imo.

[Forestradio]

If agu's suggestions were implemented orks would be the best balanced race.

I'll add about electric armor: it simply does not provide enough benefit to the hero particularly in comparison to battery pack, it drains all the mek's energy when he's already energy starved as are most ability-intensive t1 heroes, right now it doesn't really have a clear role, is the hp boost+AoE supposed to make the mek a teleporting force melee hero? A solo capper? For thirty power it is meant to be a gamechanging wargear in t1, yet even without stormboyz battery pack will be much more useful just due to the heal, which also has scaling on trukks/deff dreds/nobz (try supa tuff beam+battery pack+painboy heal/speed implant on nobz for ultimate trolling). Also forget about using any accessory with electric armor unless the mek levels like crazy.

K nob starting dps is fine, I also didn't see any mention that he has a shorter range than the standard 38, nerfing the FOTM down to 75% or 50% wouldn't be out of the question, if only to stop all the complaints.

And the knife indeed should be 25 power, it is quite powerful against sm/chaos and also has a niche against BSWB nids since it can stun the lead model with the strangler.

I'll end by saying that just because there is a lot of detection in the meta does NOT make infiltrating units or other tactics that require infiltration (mines/traps of all kinds, webways, etc etc) useless, they require a brain to pull off that's true but also have a high reward when executed correctly.

[Asmon]

I'll make electric armor reduce the energy cost of the teleport to about 20-25 and be done with it.

[Dark Riku]

One of the indicators of a good balance proposal are the small amount of posts
+1 to Agu and Forest.

[GuruSkippy]

nerfing the FOTM down to 75% or 50% wouldn't be out of the question, if only to stop all the complaints.

I thought it had been tested in this mod in the past, am I wrong ?

[Tex]

I was looking over my little notepad document that I jot down thoughts into, and I don't think we need to change anything about the knob. He does get a lot from his knife, but that's because its in huge competition with his starting shoota. 25 power seems reasonable, but again, It might become even less attractive. It isn't an auto buy in the slightest bit.

The knob already struggles with the die last detection, and extra detection. Penalizing him further in T1 is probably not going to be well supported.

If anything, the knob is a really well balanced hero. Clear strengths, and clear weaknesses, internally and externally.

[Deuce Bigalow]

As we bring supa tuff beam into the gracious light of "wow that's batshit", let us not forget the Nob pain train.

Painboy cyborg implants (shudders) and git sauce + battery pack + supa tuff beam + frenzy =

https://youtu.be/RzToNo7A-94?t=1m9s


My vote for what it's worth: (Remove either knockback or suppression immunity) AND (drop damage resistance to 50%) AND (drop cost to 40 power).

[Rewston]

As we bring supa tuff beam into the gracious light of "wow that's batshit", let us not forget the Nob pain train.

Painboy cyborg implants (shudders) and git sauce + battery pack + supa tuff beam + frenzy =

https://youtu.be/RzToNo7A-94?t=1m9s


My vote for what it's worth: (Remove either knockback or suppression immunity) AND (drop damage resistance to 50%) AND (drop cost to 40 power).

I think it is fine, because that is a combo that ain't used all that much due to the fact that (from my own experience) not a lot of people play the Mekboy, me for one. I mean, it is not as aggravating as the Holy Pyre from the Inquisitor.
So at most I only get a Painboy, but I could be completely wrong about this. xD

//FATFRED

[Forestradio]

nerfing the FOTM down to 75% or 50% wouldn't be out of the question, if only to stop all the complaints.

I thought it had been tested in this mod in the past, am I wrong ?

I can't speak for the very early stages of the mod but I can't remember anything about the k nob's starting ranged dps being changed since forever...

I was looking over my little notepad document that I jot down thoughts into, and I don't think we need to change anything about the knob. He does get a lot from his knife, but that's because its in huge competition with his starting shoota. 25 power seems reasonable, but again, It might become even less attractive. It isn't an auto buy in the slightest bit.

The knob already struggles with the die last detection, and extra detection. Penalizing him further in T1 is probably not going to be well supported.

If anything, the knob is a really well balanced hero. Clear strengths, and clear weaknesses, internally and externally.

Tex.......

It's not an autobuy ofc you will never buy the knife against ig or in mirror, and very rarely against eldar, and only occasionally against nids (BSWB) still doesn't change that it overperforms in the right hands.

And most auto-buy wargears are op anyways, if a wargear is an autobuy it either means that a) the other wargear options are completely trashbad b) the meta forces the hero to always be forced into a certain playstyle or c) the wargear is op to such an extent that it overshadows the other options.

Every infiltrating hero struggles with die last detection and extra detection, I already said it in this thread but I'll say it again: detection DOES NOT make infiltration tactics useless, it means that actually you need to think about what you're doing and have a plan involved for setting up ambushes and traps and whatnot instead of just brainlessly amoving all over the place. Infiltration snowballs hugely if you already have a map control advantage for example, setting up mines or traps or having infiltrated sluggas/FS gate shees popping up and ganking your opponent while he's trying to spread out and cap is something that wins games.

25 power is a fair price for the knife. 20 power is underpriced, or too cost effective and the knife's stats/abilities need a nerf, you can look at it either way, but something should be changed.

And yes it competes with the starting shoota but this is exactly what the k nob is about: picking the right tool for the right job at the right time, all of his weapons are balanced around giving up the option of switching back to his starting shoota, same thing with the PC.

I think it is fine, because that is a combo that ain't used all that much due to the fact that (from my own experience) not a lot of people play the Mekboy, me for one. I mean, it is not as aggravating as the Holy Pyre from the Inquisitor.
So at most I only get a Painboy, but I could be completely wrong about this. xD

Yes the combo is expensive but it doesn't change that it overperforms, if something is rare and op it still means that it should get nerfed.

The thing about the supa tuff beam+nobz combination is that there is no counterplay to it, you have a speed 6 unit (implant upgrade) with huge damage and hp. There are two healing abilities from the mek/painboy that synergize EXTREMELY well with the damage resistance from the beam/frenzy, because as soon as the nobz hp gets down you pop either the beam/frenzy and then heal them back up to full hp. You can do this twice on a speed 6(!!!!) unit that also has a damage type effective against everything. Using suppression/knockback works only barely as a delay because frenzy cancels suppression and beam cancels everything, only thing that works are 100% immobilization abilities which are also kinda op and not available on every hero.

Noisy did this a LOT when playing mek and wrecked literally everyone he faced, I did it a while back against Floid and the nobz ate everything, literally nothing could stop them, not 2 crippling poisons/seismic roar/ht charge/doom of malantai, I'll just quote Floid from that game: "mega nobz."

And it's the supa tuff beam that's the problem indeed, k nob and warboss both have the painboy and have their own synergies with nobz (infiltration! UYC/HB!) but on both of them nobz are fine because they can still be controlled, and the way you fight painboy nobz is by controlling them, they are meant to dominate at extended melee fights especially with the hammers. When the mek has the supa tuff beam nobz can't really be controlled, so it's the supa tuff beam that breaks them.

The comparison between super expensive t3 wargear+super expensive t3 melee unit+subcommander vs holy pyre makes no sense whatsoever, not sure what you're trying to say there.

[Cyris]

https://youtu.be/RzToNo7A-94?t=1m9s

Thank you for reminding me that this video existed, and allowing it to give me 3:41 of additional amusement.

[HARRYY]

Ive got a question regarding Ork Nobz / General T3 Infantry:

dont you think they level a tad too fast ? "dont let them kill a thing to avoid this" could be the automated response here... OK..... But one time you'll have to decide "OK ill take this fight on" and you can be assured that nobz will level up by then.
you can KB them once, okk, they're not alone and will come up closer then, trying to smash you.. they can break suppression etc. and theyre not the only threat ---- so there will be the inevitable point they will eat you and level up. the progression of gained HP is insane for an already tough unit

health 650 748 860 989

Same must be regarded for Terminators of any kind - or general T3 Infantry. Bunches of HP in SHI-Armor levelling like mad. I dont like this. Make it a bit harder. I mean they are fine levelling etc in such big steps, but Id say, make it require double the XP.

What do you think?

[Adeptus Noobus]

Terminators don't level and Nobs are HI if I remember correctly (and I do). Nobs are thus prone to take more damage from Plasma Guns and other weaponry that hurts HI more. Knockback and suppression is the best way to go.

[Dark Riku]

Terminators don't level Harry ...

[HARRYY]

Terminators don't level Harry ...

Oh, I saw that they have levels over on the codex. then its fine for terminators.

Still, you think nobz are OK levelling so fast?

[Crewfinity]

Still, you think nobz are OK levelling so fast?

yes. They cost a metric dickload (750/200) when fully upgraded, and still get countered by suppression (still have to pay 75 red for limited immunity), knockback, stuns, and tanks. if your enemys nobz are leveling too fast you're just not controlling them enough.

only exception is when they're supported by mek's super tuff beam but even then you can retreat so its not like they're autokilling things.

[GuruSkippy]

I never payed any attention to leveling on nobz to be honest, I will try to focus on it on my next games.

Though, keep in mind that nobz manage to kill enemy units that other orks units have many trouble to deal with. And these enemy units have generally higher XP reward : tanks, walkers, terminators, ogryns.
Or if they don't kill high XP units, they stay on the battlefield longer, killing more low level units than a slugga or stormboy squad would kill.

Maybe that's why you think nobz level fast ?

[Aetherion]

Forgive me, but I'm no ork player, I was just wondering what is the role of flash gitz? They seem abit niche (and dare I say, underused?)

[Torpid]

Forgive me, but I'm no ork player, I was just wondering what is the role of flash gitz? They seem abit niche (and dare I say, underused?)

Whatever the role of shootas is, they do waaaaaaaaay better in the late game. In fact, I often suicide my shootas to lower upkeep/pop and just replace them with gitz becaus even at lv1 gitz are way better than lv4 shootas.

[Forestradio]

keep in mind that flash gitz with the gitfindas upgrade outrange suppression teams

definitely a niche unit, but nothing wrong with niche units

they used to be cheaper and cost less population and upkeep but Noisy spammed the shit out of them and got them nerfed

[Ace of Swords]

Forgive me, but I'm no ork player, I was just wondering what is the role of flash gitz? They seem abit niche (and dare I say, underused?)

Whatever the role of shootas is, they do waaaaaaaaay better in the late game. In fact, I often suicide my shootas to lower upkeep/pop and just replace them with gitz becaus even at lv1 gitz are way better than lv4 shootas.

This, and this is also the answer to any question that says "What is the role of X T3 ranged unit implemented by elite mod?"

Basically they are replacements for your army if you got something wiped along the way, permitting you to stand in the game if you lost something but are maintaining your eco.

[Aguxyz]

Terminators don't level Harry ...

Oh, I saw that they have levels over on the codex. then its fine for terminators.

Still, you think nobz are OK levelling so fast?

Nobz should not even be lvling as fast if you're letting them get in your lines there should always be some type of disruption or stun that you should always have ready when you see nobz. Stun is your best friend vs nobz esp when they use their invul ability pretty earlier then they should. Their lvling scale is fine as it is