Chaos and Buffs and Sub-commander

[Black Maw]

OK, so this is my first post, so be gentle. I do not consider myself experienced at DOW 2, nor Elite nor any RTS game. This is actually the 3rd RTS game i have ever played after Age of Empires and DOW 1, so i do expect to come across as a bit of a noob.

Right, now that I've covered my own ass a little, i wanted to get some opinions about chaos and buffs. Sorry, this might be a little long.

So I've noticed that pretty much every race has 2 things that chaos does not, or does not do well and I'm not really sure why.

-Spike damage
-A sub commander (Yes, i probably sound like a broken record)

So let me justify this first. I cannot seem to find a way to make an opponent panic that he is going to loose a squad imminently OR take a squad out in retreat OR surprise a low health squad with a pretty much sure fire way to wipe them. In the case of the latter, seemingly every race has a point, click WOAH DAMAGE ability. Chaos does not. If you know of an ability that directly and suddenly takes health away from a unit, i would love to hear it because it seems to me all you can do is jump a unit with Bloodletters, LC Termies or Raptors. All of which can be VERY risky i.e. Bloodletter's squishness, LC Termies vulnerability and cost, and Raptors low health pool. Yes, there are doombolts, but this in not good against single unit entities. I guess a good case could be made for the CS staff's ability.

Another way that seems to be good to do this is strong debuffs or buffs, stacking debuffs and buffs or a combination of the two and jumping a unit, nuke etc. Another strange thing, Chaos have almost no powerful debuffs to give to enemy units nor powerful buffs to give their own besides the very immobile worship, which wont have enough impact as soon as you hit the worship button to make an opponent feel pressured. You pretty much rely on a generally high damage output to force enemies off before they can do much. But this is high dps, not spike damage. Easily predicted by just looking at your opponents units and thinking "Dayum, that Dred's claws look NASTY. Better stay the hell away". This ability to sum up your opponents threats so easily leads to players just walking units away from a Chaos army, even with extremely low health. Not even breaking a sweat.

I just feel that all the other races have so many great buffs and debuffs practically on tap. Just 'click' and you've suddenly change the dynamic of the game and turned a loosing engagement into a panic not to loose squads for your opponent. You kinda have to be a bit dopey to loose a squad to Chaos.

Also, a sub commander. This is more a "Hmm, wonder why literally ALL the other races get one. Is there some other spell caster I'm supposed to be using? But... there isn't one...". Seems to me like having a unit that can buff or debuff, especially on single units, of which Chaos has almost none, is a pretty damn important part of the game: surprising your enemy. I would LOVE to see a Slaanesh Sorcerer sub commander. I know, i know, it's not easy to make and it could ruin the balance of the entire game, there's no room in the tiers to put him in, you'd have to remove a global, it softens an exploitable weakness of Chaos etc. but it would give chaos these tools that other races already have. And i know I'm basically saying what every other Chaos player says when i mention Slaanesh, so I'm just throwing it out there.

Why do Chaos have this lack of abilities? Buffs and debuffs? What am i supposed to be using? Being able to change the dynamic, not particularly drastically but SUDDENLY, pressures your opponent quickly and that seems to be the way to make your opponent make mistakes: give him very little time to make the right choice, induce panic or don't give him enough time to click all the buttons he needs to. This leads to squad wipes, which are devastating to economy, map control and fire power. The most important aspects of the game.

Please please PLEASE don't take this as me saying that Chaos are underpowered, they are not. Its more that i feel like i'm slowly grinding away my opponents units until they retreat or move away rather than making my opponent sweat even a little. Whereas my opponents can run right up to me and even if i start moving away or trying to dodge, directly damage a unit in a large spike. Why don't chaos get this?

And again, i just want to provoke discussion. I love this game and the elite mod, it's got me into RTS games now and I'm so addicted.

Let me know your thoughts!!

[Swift]

Well Chaos used to have very early "spikes" of damage in the form of doomblasts, but after the nerf it isn't quite so formidable. I would consider the Blastmaster to be a weapon that does spikes of damage, as do the Lightning Claws on the CL. Similar things such as Khorne Dread and Bloodcrusher do good single target damage too.

As for sub-commander, just do a quick browse of the forums, Cael had a lot of stuff on a Slaaneshi hero/subcommander but his PC died and took it all with it.

[Aetherion]

Chaos spike damage comes from presenting new threats (in the form of upgrades and new units) to the enemy to reckon with I think. An engagement you previously won against csm without eternal war vs ones with can turn quite differently. Surprise double autocannons from sorc infiltration is pretty painful. If we're talking about securing a retreat kill KCSM are pretty awesome. In general the sorceror is very good at surprising people (subjugated terminators come to mind)

These things are some of the highest afaik high dps stuff, if we're looking for mini nukes (like eldar singularity and many massive game changing abilities of the heroes) look no further than the heroes themselves. Plague champ's noxious cloud has been the death of many an IG player who either retreated through the cloud or died standing in it. And blight nades. And as you mentioned, doombolts and warpfire.

And speaking of worship, try bloodletters under worship and watch your enemy focus your heretics like hell because of the massive health regen. Best with nurgle and tzeentch (double worship to keep the tics alive too).

Chaos is very hero focused I think, most of the heavy hitting stuff comes from them, they support their units b neutralising the key enemy stuff (typically by shoving sharp objects in their faces and magic trickery).

I hope I didnt come across as saying l2p, but I hope you can consider some of this stuff and see if it works for you.

[Black Maw]

I just don't think that 'presenting new threats' is any different from what other races do, such as getting counter units i.e. Assault Marines vs. set up teams, Ogryns against ranged fire etc. It's just good play. Except that other races do this AND use buffs to support their army, i'm talking huge area of effect stuff such as Nids synapse, FC storm shield or None Shall Fall, or single target stuff such as Judgement or Doom. pretty much every race has some equivalent of this but Chaos are pretty much the only ones who don't. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm saying you have to level the playing field somehow by playing a little differently right? So how do you do that?

I realise that ambushes are a good way to do this with the sorcerer but that still isn't a targeted ability, it positioning. Every race has a detector unit so its not like its much of an advantage once you get into T3. The ranged damage reduction is awesome, don't get me wrong but again, its not massive its just convenient since it takes no energy. Bloodletters are excellent but their tiny health pool and fairly expensive reinforce makes them the ultimate glass cannon. They can wipe in about 3 seconds if you don't micro like crazy, or if you jump in and don't get enough energy to phase out in time to avoid the inevitable focus fire. Worship does not make them invincible, it only helps them stay in long enough to do respectable damage: they are still squishy as hell. They have the potential to do good amounts of damage but they are so risky it's only really a good idea to use them on set up teams, artillery, Zoanthropes etc. At least, from my experience. An ability generally doesn't make you all that more vulnerable and Chaos doesn't have as many buffs, debuffs or direct damage abilities; this is why i mention the lack of a sub-commander in this post too as he would ordinarily have these kinds of abilities. And KCSM are just so niche and are kinda squishy, i rarely get them when MoT CSM are such a good source of ranged damage, probably the best for the Chaos army. And 2 x MoT CSM fully upgraded and leveled? = much death.

I agree about CSM getting a lot of their fire power from the heroes , especially in the case of the sorcerer. I changed to him because of his control abilities. Using combos such as curse of Tzneetch, Chains of Torment and his Dark Flames global can be excruciating for your opponent. His abilities are usually more tricky for your opponent than straight up damage or buffs and i like that, the Tome of Subjugation is a nightmare to deal with and it's that same kind of 'pick a unit and take it out of play' effect you get with abilities but you get it in a different way. I've also been experimenting with 2 x MoT CSM with the demon shield while the CS throws Doombolts and uses the Rod of Warpfire to disrupt; the Daemon Armour's energy regen is awesome for spamming abilities. 2 MoK Havok ambushes also sound awesome, i'll try it out.

I guess I'm saying i need to l2p and I'm asking for tips aha I think i need to work on my combinations and watch some PoV CS matches to get some new ideas, I'm totally addicted to watching replays like Indrid's. Appreciate the comments guys, I'll definitely try some new stuff out.

[Thunderhost]

Another way of looking at it, would be in terms of design. Chaos doesn't have these capabilities because it has other means to achieve the same effects.
If all races had access to the same pool of abilities, they'd be the same race one could argue.

[Dark Riku]

Spike damage for Chaos: Blastmaster NM's, havoc autocannon, BC (their attack animation is so fast with a ton of damage), CL LC's, bloodlust.
Do they fit into your definition of spike damage?

It doesn't really matter imo since almost everything Chaos has just screams DAMAGE OUTPUT. It's how the race is designed.
If Chaos were giving more spike damage tools and more abilities their core damage has to go down. I prefer every race to have it's own design though.

Debuffs: daemonic visage, chains of torment, curse of Tzeench, bloodmaul, PM PF (stun), drain life (for crucial models), Bilious Discharge, chaos terminators.
Buffs: all worship/shrines, bloodlust, ToN, deamonic shield, curoscating flames, PM PF (flies: 90% ranged damage reduction) Breath of Nurgle.
Heretics are buffing your units from the start of the game and should be a nuisance all game long by buffing your units and disrupting the enemy's.

As you already mentioned about the sub-commander. I'd rather have every race to be different. It's ok for Chaos to have no transport (LRP does not count) or a sub-commander. Also the balancing aspect

[Black Maw]

I'm sorry Riku, you misunderstand me. In NO WAY at all am I saying that Chaos are underpowered, their damage output is really good and it's what the race relies on to scare off opponents quite clearly. They are quite a simple army to play as by design, it's what makes me enjoy playing as them so much but they pay for this in utility.

I REALISE this is on purpose, you generally tend to swamp your enemy as Chaos and give them too much to deal with using abilities alone. Their general damage output allows them to put pressure on an opponent quickly and they are a very 'brute force' kind of army. Let me briefly give some examples to justify their lack of utility and mass buffs that hurts them.

-Mass Buffs: You mention Bloodlust - it's only for the chaos lord as a global and i barely EVER see people use it. It doesn't seem to me to do all that much. Other races get abilities i mentioned earlier: None Shall Fall (units can't die), FC Storm Shield (40% ranged damage reduction), Nids HT ranged damage reduction, suppression resistance, speed buffs and improved synapse increases health. Passively. Again, Termies buffs and debuffs are 1% and 2%. This doesn't even compare. Chains of torment hold units in place, not make them take more damage or buff your units, similar to curse of Tzeentch; its just trickery and irritating.

-PC Fist: is ONLY a capping tool, it stays in one place and so is a static buff in a tiny area which those units must stay in to receive the buff. It's an AMAZING capping tool but i rarely find the opportunity to use to buff my army because of it's lack of utility. Not only this but it's stun also gives your enemy a damage reduction buff, so you get a short stun in exchange for buffing your enemy. Not worth it at all.

-Drain life barely drains any life. It's for control, and can help your other units to focus fire. Bilious Discharge, again doesn't buff, it's just annoying and can be retreated from with no consequence.

-Shrines: Here i have no complaints. They are freaking awesome for how cheap they are but I'd still prefer a wargear or sergeant that had these as an ability rather than a static, easily destroyed building. You can't destroy an opponents wargear.

-ToN: Awesome but it's much more useful as a defence, it works best on tics (even after the nerf) and how often do you get Tics amongst your enemy's army in T2? They are super squishy. Not only this but the effective units have to commit suicide to trigger the ability.

-Daemon Shield: Again a great ability but Pales in comparison to the abilities i just mentioned. Small AOE is it's main weakness and how it forces you to cram your whole army together. Such a tasty nuke target.

-Coruscating Flames: A T1 wargear. I don't even bother using it past T2, its weak and does absolute jack to heavy armour units.

On top of this:

-Lack of On-Field Reinforce: Only the plague champion has this in the form of a static, low health shrine, which is sweet as anything but other races get units that the whole race has access to. CS have the Daemonic Summoning but it costs red and it is WAY more useful as a retreat killer or an offensive ability. Very situational, not worth using for 175 red if its just to reinforce.

-Lack of transport: as you said.

-Point, click, damage abilities.

As for heretics, i feel like they are for buffing your units because they are seriously lacking in the first place. Take CSM for example, they are inferior to SM in almost every way. You don't use Tics to make an opponent panic, you use them to level the playing field! They aren't a great option you can choose to use or not use like a wargear, you HAVE to use them or you WILL loose. And their melee nerf i just can't seem to understand, it's just made T1 engagement really hard now that they are plain and simple, less killy.

You mention Havoks MoK which has been nerfed not long after it was buffed! Bloodcrushers RARELY survive to T3 and wont survive big engagements and CL LC? He's so slow you have to stand right in front of his face to receive any damage. Most units can walk away and its DoT, not really spike.

Having said all of this, i wouldn't change a thing. As i've already said, it's the way chaos plays and that is fine, they aren't underpowered, I'm not calling for buffs to stats. What I'm saying is that all the other races have so much in terms of utility that chaos does not and in retail this was counter balanced by making them have INSANE damage output. Obviously i don't agree that retail was ok just the way it was, Bloodcrusher spamming infuriated me. But Chaos have now been nerfed in almost every conceivable manner and i just can't seem to find where they have been compensated even a little for this string of nerfs. Raptors were SORELY needed anyways and the Phobos was just a given since Chaos's vehicles are generally very bland and just do their job really but these nerfs have been applied across the board. I don't feel like i have as many tricks up my sleeve for chaos or as many options to choose from, they have a lack of abilities in general and this is a serious disadvantage when all the other races have multiple abilities.

Again, i'm not saying they are underpowered, i guess i'm asking for tips on how to wipe squads and increase the durability of my army when i lack mass buffs and point and click damage abilities.

So again i have to ask, what should i be doing to make up for not having multiple powerful, en-mass buffs or single target debuffs? Is the simple damage output of the army supposed to make up for this because I'm not feeling it. Even so, as i mentioned before, surprising your enemy with abilities is far more effective at wiping squads and inflicting irreversible losses than simply hoping your opponent forgets about stuff and limits your play style to just 'throw everything at them'. Rapidly changing the sway of an engagement is something other races do far better so how do i trap my opponent and force a complex and quick reaction?

Again, I'm more asking for tips on how to play Chaos than anything else. I'm constantly trying to sum up my opponents abilities and threats and often retreat things early for fear of a Destructor or Doom-like ability that could cause a squad to suddenly become too vulnerable to escape safely. Chaos units just aren't tanking enough to get hit by these abilities and stay in play, you have to predict them same as other races but you have less to throw at you opponent. How do i level the playing field?

[Dark Riku]

I'm sorry, you must have misunderstood me. I'm not saying that you are saying Chaos is UP. I'm only trying to give reasons why Chaos is the way they are and would prefer them to stay this way. If you prefer other play styles, other races will fill those roles for you.

I wouldn't dismiss bloodlust at all. It's a very powerful global when used right. With a high chance of wiping units since this will be used with a minimum of melee units in your army. The buffs also need to be taken into the race context and the downsides they might bring. Non shall fall for example is a T3 wargear. The FC shield does nothing versus melee and makes the units very slow so you have the option to out position the FC and his army. Synapse is a big part of Tyranids, Tyranids players want to keep them close and alive, while the enemy player wants to kill them as soon as possible for the negative synsapse bombs and to force away the buffs. Chaos terminators debuff 3% damage output on kill and received damage by 2% per kill, this is massive versus high model squads. Kill for example 5 gm models and the entire enemy army (radius 25) loses 15% damage and receives 10% extra damage from your entire army.

PC fist is much more than just a capping tool. It gives you the advantage in melee vs melee fights and is absolutely devastating versus units that can't retreat. You should have blooletters, KCSM, .. (take your pick) wailing on the stunned unit.

Drain life is indeed a control tool, it basically "debuffs" the model with -100% in every regard.
Movement impairment abilities are extremely useful debuffs in a game like this. (like chains of torment)

Shrines can be destroyed, but so can be squads, leaders or heroes.
Put these suckers behind any LoS blocker and their performance skyrockets.

In general, people need to stop assuming to be on the offensive all the time and think that abilities are only good if able to use offensively, which Ton still can be used as btw. If you have Tics guarding your setupteams and the enemy pushed in with melee your tics are there to counter initiate with ToN and absolutely destroy them in most cases.

I wouldn't call Daemon shield a small radius or pales in comparison to other buffs at all: 35% ranged damage reduction is quite a bit and suppression immunity is very good. Very useful if your enemy tried to go for a ranged superiority army.

You also use the sword against infantry units and not vs HI units. Every wargear has it's own purpose.

Yes, no on field reinforcements for Chaos, bar the 2 you mentioned. But that's just fine for them.

Chaos has tons of point and click damage abilities: LTGB, cloud, warpfire, warpflames, aidsnade, ACCSM, Vomit, ...

Chaos units are not lacking in the first place at all. in case of your example: CSM also cost less than tacs, do slightly more melee damage than them while having a little less HP and ranged damage. But with the eternal war upgrade they permanently become better than tacs in damage output. Not to mention the more specialised roles that CSM can fill later on.

MoK havocs still over perform imo, anti all unit with too much damage, and an animation that always finishes even if the unit walk out of their fire arc ...
The NM nerf is fine, it allows for a little counter play. All they needed was 1 small burst to fuck up any ranged squad or ability ...
Properly used BC's will definitely survive bigger engagements, 1v1's rarely go to T3 anyway and I find BC can still server a purpose when it does reaches that stage. Units that can guard vp's vs lone cappers are never wasted.

First of all I disagree that Chaos has less utility than other races.
Look at all the change logs, you'll see where Chaos got some love.
That's funny because I think Raptors are not such a needed addition, I personally find most builds way better without them

I'm confused here, buffs are available enough in Chaos imo and they have point and click damage abilities

You don't need en mass buffs if your units already do a ton of damage. You don't need to worry on buffing your squads as they already perform well without them. I'd suggest you to check out MRT replays with Chaos in them. Latest MRT I played CL exclusively for example.

[Black Maw]

I get that this is the way Chaos plays and the variety is such a great part of this game, every race plays so drastically differently. I like this about DOW 2, don't get me wrong i just feel that there is an intrinsic disadvantage with having a brute force army compared to one that can better tailor itself to an opponent. A Chaos player really has to know he can win a fight before he's even started, whereas an ability like IG's NSF turns battles drastically and immediately.

I changed to main the sorcerer exactly because of abilities like CoT, Subjugate and infiltration on tap because it provides these surprises and have been doing much better than i had with the PC and CL. Abilities like Waaarg! also cause your opponent to quickly re-evaluate their situation. I'm not saying Chaos should have something similar and Bloodlust is a good example of a mass buff that can achieve a similar result but it does have the drawback of costing a large chunk of red so i really doubt you'd use it to retreat kill anything other than Termies since you want the trade of 175 red to be worth it! And again, why don't i see it used much? It seems like it should be a vital ability of the CL.

Of course i realise these abilities have potentially huge drawbacks, when you get such a poweful buff from a unit, once that unit is down or unable to use the ability, your in deep poop. I need to target these kinds of commanders and units better.

Chaos terminators debuff 3% damage output on kill and received damage by 2% per kill, this is massive versus high model squads. Kill for example 5 gm models and the entire enemy army (radius 25) loses 15% damage and receives 10% extra damage from your entire army.

I'm confused as to how you worked this out...? Does it stack? Well, i was very wrong about Termies, i didn't think this was so. Is it written in the tooltip and I'm just being stupid lol?

PC Fist:

absolutely devastating versus units that can't retreat

Doesn't this pretty much only apply to Terminators though...? I'm struggling to think of a unit that can't retreat other than Termies. Does the stun work on vehicles? It's a nightmare trying to get the PC in close combat anyway so i doubt even if it did that he could get close enough to anything but a LR, and that's too much health to take down in melee. Even so, you still reduce the ranged damage the unit takes and basically remove half of your damage out put, cutting your own army in half. It's great to counter initiate and that's what i use it for so like i say, i can't think of a way to use it to kill a unit that can retreat and the ones that can't still get a reduction to ranged damage. It is clearly a much better defensive tool.

I won't go through and address al the abilities because I've already made this post sound like I'm complaining or something, thats not my intention. Although i do have to disagree with you about CSM, i do hear a lot of people talk about CSM having better melee skill but both Tacs and CSM have 60 no...? I realise EW gives you the advantage but in an engagement in the first few minutes this isn't helpful at all, I'm far to busy thinking of getting a more effective T1.5 unit to give me some impact. I'm not saying this should be tweaked, you have worship to even things up but this is what i meant by having a worse unit that needs support. Yes they are a little cheaper but I'd rather pay more for a unit that will do more work for me

I also don't think i can agree with the MoK nerf, the reason it was buffed in the first place was because they are so vulnerable with low HP. Havoks + MoK = 315 req and 45 power while being easy to kill. Times that by 2 and that's 630 req and 90 power plus taking up something like 30 pop cap? Thats a third of your whole army! I never go 2 x MoK Havoks, such a big risk when better units could be used. Now using one alone is something you can power though. As for the animation, that's a bug and absolutely should be fixed, no arguments here. I'm sure the nerf isn't too crazy and I've got nothing to worry about though.

I guess i need to put some more time in to playing other races, i do play Chaos almost religiously I think i need to be more clever in picking my enemy's armies and abilities apart while making it harder for them to use debuffs on key units. I'll study up and kick some ass.

See you on the battlefield!

[Dark Riku]

Again, NSF is a T3 thing, it's only going to be in effect at the very late game and, more often than not, not even going to get to that stage in a 1v1.

Great! The sorcerer might suit your play style better then. The thing with Orks is that pretty much all their abilities cost red and are not as massive of a boost as bloodlust is. Why don't you see bloodlust used much? Could be many reasons, not the right situation for it, It's a T2 global so the game has to go to that stage already, you have to have decided not to use other abilities, could be anything.

Yes, terminator debuff stacks, every kill lasts for 15 secs.

The PC stun does not work on vehicles. As stated above, you don't need to run in head first, use it correctly.
Yes, you reduce the ranged damage from your own squads, but in the meantime your PC and whatever melee squad you have is smacking away for "free" on a unit while the enemy can't support with ranged fire either.

CSM do more melee DPS than tacs, they have the same default melee skill yes.
Tacs as a squad do 3.48 more ranged DPS than CSM, you really want to pay 50 extra req for that? That also means extra reinforce cost etc? And it's not like that's the only units in the roster. NM's are far superior flamer tacs. Chaos suppression team is just straight up better than the heavy bolter imo, etc.

MoK havocs over perform, there is no way around that and as long as their animation finishes all the time, even outside of the range it's part of their balance. And they are not easy to kill in a Chaos roster. They are not supposed to be on their own.

Yes, playing other races is a great idea. If you literally want to see me on the battlefield I'm always open to challenges

[Black Maw]

I realise it's how Chaos plays but still, NSF is just one example of many that shows that many other races have much better buffs and debuffs on multiple tiers. FC Shield, Fight harder, Back in the fight, Waaarg!, Nids synapse, Warlock energy aura, cloaking shroud, hell even GK have a few with a smaller AOE. I'm not saying this isn't balanced but it's a big blow for an army to not have something every other army does; lack of on field reinforcement also really reduces the utility of the Chaos army in the same way - you have to play smarter.

Tried out the Termies debuff using the Autocannon on some GM and melted some faces. Kudos to you sir, you have my thanks.

The PC fist is still defensive tool, you can just retreat at you leisure and the stun is irrelevant if there aren't any jump infantry. Much better to stay back and use the strike or cap.

Tacs also get more health. You simply can't run your CSM at Tacs, they'll take damage on approach, do less while approaching and then get in to close combat with a unit that has more health and the same melee skill; the melee damage difference is tiny. It only works if you already have the advantage or have EW and can get in quick, hence worship. No problem with that but Tacs are the better unit early game. Reinforce costs don't matter much if your doing what you should be doing and retreating when you need to, it's very unlikely you'll loose a low model high HP squad like Tacs in early game anyway. Worship tips the balance.

NM are 350 req 30 power and a totally different unit, flamer Tacs are pretty much just for gen burning and you can switch between weapons. That versatility makes one of SM starting units a constant threat to gens every time they push against you, very powerful imho. NM are needed more to shut down ranged fire, it easy to out-shoot chaos T1 since Tics are squishy and their auto pistols do jack. The damage difference is 3dps, not exactly a crazy difference.

Devs and Havoks are almost the same except Devs do more damage and have an ability to further increase this damage and Havoks get better melee skill, which your never gunna use aha. Having said this, Havoks give +9 and Devs give +12 - i guess that's the advantage, more damage but higher risk of feeding you opponent red.

I guess I'll see how i get on with Havoks, i just never felt like the Autocannon did much for me. It was always more of a straight up upgrade so that they do some damage before they get jumped and have to leave the party.

And maybe we will see each other on the battlefield some day but i expect tips afterwards Many thanks.

[Dark Riku]

Saying Chaos is fine and balanced as is but then complaining about how big of a blow it is that they don't have certain abilities available that you want them to have makes little sense to me :/

PC fist: If they retreat their stunned unit then that's already 1 less unit to deal with, probably leading to a won fight --> map control, etc.

You're not supposed to compare Tacs/CSM only in a 1v1 situation. Imagine CSM versus an incoming melee squad. They shoot at them first and then can hold their own better in melee combat. The melee damage difference (9 DPS) is higher than the ranged damage difference (3.48) ... I very much disagree with the notion that Tacs are better early game than CSM are. CSM are less straining on your economy than Tacs are. Worship only further helps CSM.

NM's are indeed a totally different unit, that does the same damage and also disable any ranged fire and ability while also having a disruption ability
NM's stay a big constant threat throughout the game with those perks and can later even become artillery...

Why would you say it's easy to outshoot Chaos T1? That makes no sense to me at all :/

And except Havocs fill their intended role faster as they suppress faster.

[Black Maw]

They make up for their lack of AOE abilities with damage output, I thought this was your point earlier and I agree, I'm saying it reduces their utility and the ability to turn engagements quickly. Instead, you achieve the same effect with just your units, like using demons with Tic support and worship in general. All I'm saying is that versatility generally tends to be more useful no? I'm not arguing for changes here, it's their play style and they are compensated in other ways but it does give them a totally different play style to other races.

And hold on here, we're getting so off track with the Plague Fist. I was talking about large AOE buffs and debuffs and point and click damage abilities. The fist is none of these and I'm not complaining about it, it's just not what I was talking about lol. It's great for counter initiating melee units that get too deep into your army while cutting off your opponents ranged damage, yes. We agree! Huzzah!

Again, Tacs have More ranged damage for a ranged squad AND more health. 2 very big advantages. Why would you want a slightly higher melee skill for a unit you'll always want to keep behind cover and away from melee units? They still wont be able to fend off melee units until they have MoK, this is a complete non sequitur. And having more health is never a bad thing, you pay more and get a more specialised, high health unit. Please, show me a game where you have 1 squad of CSM vs one squad of Tacs and you win. You say not to compare them in a 1 v 1 but you have to compare apples to apples, that's exactly what I was doing when I said CSM have worse stats. Not only this but Tacs have 75 more health, meaning the extra 9 dps still requires your CSM to stay in melee for at least 8 seconds longer in melee to beat Tacs. Tics make up for this difference by using Khorne worship to get in there quickly, Tzneecth to reduces the ranges damage difference by 20% and Nurgle to overcome the health difference, evening up the playing field.

Chaos are easier to outshoot in T1 because SM Tacs, IG GM and DA Eldar have higher ranged dps. Maybe even Nids with one of the auras, I'm not too familiar with them. They have a higher model count to compensate this but you will still loose out in the end. Hence, tics. They need support is my point, tacs have the advantage, no doubt.

Yes, noise marines are better than flamer Tacs but they are still WAY more expensive, require a long build time, less health etc. Having mobility and the option to switch weapons is REALLY useful for bashing gens. Short build time, mobility and the ability to switch in and out. Perfect if we are just talking about gen bashing here. It's a different kind of advantage, they are starkly different units and I don't think there's any imbalance there. There a big difference comparing an actual unit to an upgrade. Apples and oranges man, apples and oranges.

And yes the fast suppression is very nice but you said they are 'straight up better'. Damage and an ability is great! Vengeance Rounds are scary D:

And light AV straight out of base!

I feel like we are going a little off topic here...

[Dark Riku]

Chaos has multiple damaging AoE abilities... How does this (lack of, in your mind, buffs/debuffs) reduce their utility? °_O
Versatility in general does not tend to be more useful as that trait tends to make a unit average in every role and not good in a couple of specific roles.
Note that this does not include the anti all units, like Chaos autocannon Havocs.

The PC fist was only 1 example. A stun like that is a major debuff while it can also function as a ranged defence tool.

Again, Tacs ranged damage is ONLY 3.48 DPS higher. With Eternal War CSM do more ranged DPS than tacs.
The HP difference is fairly small (75HP). They also cost 50 less req.
CSM do not have higher MS, they have 9 more melee DPS. I already gave you an example where this is useful in the post above. I'm sorry, but what you stated is just total bullshit that they can't fend of melee units without MoK. They can fend of melee units when they fire on them at approach, especially in the early game.

Chaos is not easier to outshoot. For example: sure, DA have Tac-like dps, but they don't have the armor type to fight your CSM 1on1 ...
GM, even with sarge, do not deal more ranged DPS than CSM ...
Those type of units also lose damage output with the loss of models.

So much NO! Flamer tacs are way more expensive than NM. NM cost only 350 req! and 30 power, versus 515 req and 20 power flamer tacs! while NM's are also way more useful in combat! This is a compositional comparison between Chaos T1 and SM T1. Tacs swapping weapons costs a butload and is not available in T1. They pay every time to equip something else unlike commanders.

HB devs do not have light AV straight out of the base....
suppression team are there to suppress, not for the damage, and the damage difference is about a mesely 12DPS! from the ~300+DPS
Vengeance rounds are not free either AND lock you out of the lascannon upgrade, while they also don't have access to the (imo over performing) autocannon.
So yes, Havocs are straight up better HB devs. The only "real" advantage HB's have over Havocs is their teardown time. (2 instead of 3 seconds)
Teardown time doesn't exactly help in combat now does it? ...


You are really starting to piss me off with all these wrong statements, bad thinking patterns and asking me to prove anything to you, while you as the original poster have the burden of proof, yet failed to provide any proof at all. And while I hold a lot of game experience behind my posting. You wanted reactions, then take those reaction instead of arguing with them. Only thing we've established now is what your opinion is and you aren't swaying from your own misconceptions. What do you want anyway then?

[Codex]

Alright let's just take the tension down a peg, it's really not necessary.

[Black Maw]

Deep breaths dude, deep breaths. Maybe I need to take a few steps back here.

I love the Elite mod.

I appreciate the work the team has done on it. It's free, it's fun, it's fantastic.

I love playing Chaos. The balance is excellent and so are the units. I have no complaints.

This was merely a conversation on any helpful tips on how to achieve a similar effect to large scale buffs. I admit, there's a lot of stuff I overlooked or didn't understand the application of but I still feel my point still stands. Chaos have less large scale buffs. They don't rely on those and I'm not saying they need to. The previous posters gave me advice on how to achieve similar effects, which I appreciate. I'm asking for help and instead I get this blowback of you just telling me I'm wrong about everything so I should just shut up. Real helpful.

I'm just going to say my piece for the last time ok, this conversation isn't going anywhere and like a lot of conversations about elite mod, things get insanely heated and opinionated and it feels like the conversation devolves into 'Oh yeh, well your army is OP!" "No YOUR army is OP! And you SUCK at DOW 2 so neeeeeeeeeeeeeh!!!!11!!". I precisely put disclaimers and caveats in my post to avoid this. This community can have a serious problem with toxicity that I've been trying to ignore for a while now but people make it hard and you haven't exactly filled me with confidence. And before you start with how awesome all your friends are, I'm referring to randomers in custom games. I've never heard so many racist slurs or rage quitters in a game in my life, it's crazy. What ever happened to a love of the game?

Versatility in general does not tend to be more useful as that trait tends to make a unit average in every role and not good in a couple of specific roles

Fair point, I guess it comes down to the army's structure: would you prefer a general all purpose unit that is ok against most things or a unit that is fantastic against a specific kind of unit but really feeble vs. other units. I guess I would prefer the specialised unit and learn how to play with it.

PC Fist: Again, I was talking about Large. Scale. Buffs. And. Debuffs. I still can't figure out how we got on to the fist. Lets let that part of the convo die pls.

Yes CSM get more damage with EW, while the space marine player pays 50 req to get more health, and yes slightly higher ranged dps, right out of the gate and with no build time compared to a small build time for EW that requires power. If I haven't already made this clear, I was referring to early engagements, mostly first encounters and how you need worship or commander support. I was also referring to lone CSM vs lone Tacs. Yes, lone CSM with eternal war will probs win against Tacs if your opponent decides to do nothing with his extra power at all. This power usually goes towards getting ASM or Devs out quick or wargear. At no point did I say I don't like this dynamic, it was an example.

And you can't be serious about melee units, your telling me a single squad could fend off a single squad of Shees? Sluggas? Hormagaunts? What melee squad is gunna stand in front of CSM doing nothing while they get shot at? I'm very confused :S

Ok, I'm wrong about GM. I guess it's because an IG player generally get two of them out before I can get 2 x CSM. I apologise. And I did mention the higher model count being a downside. Again, different topic to my OP.

Again with the noise marines, they are a COMPLETELY SEPARATE UNIT. It's ridiculous to compare the two! Yes, flamer Tacs cost more but it's not like I can get bolter wielding noise marines as soon as the match starts and upgrade them to a cannon, I have to wait for 30 power and 350 req and there is no option at all to undo my purchase and get a different unit. They pay every time because they can get these weapons instead of having to make an entirely new unit. And at no point did I suggest that NM underperform or Tac flamers are OP. It's also nothing to do with my original post, how did we get here?

Vengeance rounds only cost req and its 75. The tool tip clearly state that they are AV and they are available in T1. I would say this constitutes AV in T1 no? And how is a reduced set up time not useful in combat, you can get in to position faster and start firing earlier. You can argue that Havoks fulfil their role better but to say Devs just aren't as good flat out is to ignore their other advantages. Also, not in my original post.

I'm sorry your getting so agitated but I assure you, you are the only one out of the two of us. My original post asked:

I cannot seem to find a way to make an opponent panic that he is going to loose a squad imminently OR take a squad out in retreat OR surprise a low health squad with a pretty much sure fire way to wipe them

i just want to provoke discussion

What am i supposed to be using?

i feel like i'm slowly grinding away my opponents units until they retreat or move away rather than making my opponent sweat even a little.

Advice. I'm asking for advice. My proof was discussing these abilities you bring up. I know you have been playing for a long time, I have not. Maybe be productive rather than aggressive? Help me out here, I r n00b, cut me some slack. I already mentioned I'm new to RTS but that doesn't make my opinion invalid. It's an opinion. I wanted advice as well as comments and reactions. Of course I'm willing to change my mind but you won't even accept a single dot or tiddle of my original point, you've just been beating me down in every aspect of my comments and not trying to understand my point at all. You make it sound like Chaos are OP and I must just be a terrible player who doesn't know any better. How dare I have an opinion.

Maybe it would be better to just forget about this, it's not very productive and I got a few ideas from the other posters. Clearly we are not understanding each other at all so it's just a waste of time. I'm sorry that this is the conclusion and for pretty much wasting a thread. Happy gaming to you.

[Dark Riku]

I'm perfectly calm. -.-

For me, your point definitely does not stand. Go count all the buffs/debuffs per race and then come back here.

Again you're making wrong statements. I never claimed everything you said was wrong, however, a good chunk of the things you posted is just plain wrong and I pointed those out. One example: melee skill not being the same thing as melee DPS.

This conversation isn't going anywhere because I disagree with you and are pointing you toward hard facts while you're calling me toxic? That's just brilliant!

If you don't understand why the PC fist is on the debuff/buff list, then I don't know what is. What is a large scale buff for you anyway? Maybe you should start out by defining what it is your looking for exactly at the start of a thread instead of going with an arbitrary definition.

DoW2 lasts more than 1 minute of gameplay. You can't just look at the first minute and decide on that alone that CSM are somehow weaker than Tacs!

CSM shoot at the charging melee squad, then melee them down. How is this hard to understand? °_O

We got at NM because you can't look at 1 unit of 1 race in vacuum. Those bolter wielding NM's are called CSM.

The tooltips states many retarded things, vengeance rounds are soft AV at best. How is it not useful in combat? If you're desetting up, you're not firing...
You will not get into position faster as the setup time is the same. I can't ignore something that isn't there.

All these "extra things" are in here as examples on other things you've said.

If you want advice, take the advice instead of arguing with said advice.

[Aetherion]

I'm not going to get in the middle of this, but perhaps mods could move this to the strategy section if Black Maw wishes to find solutions to what can be done in response to a particular situation or achieve a particular playstyle?

[Black Maw]

Look, I'm sorry ok, we clearly got off on the wrong foot and that was not my intention. There also seems to be a break down in communication here because we clearly aren't understanding each other. We're having arguments I didn't even want to have.

I'm not going to count the buffs, my point was specifically large scale buffs and how many other armies utilise these to great effect, strengthening the entire army. I don't really have an off-the-top-of-my-head radius figure that I could give you to show what I mean but something like NSF, Storm Shield and maybe not quite as large as Synapse but a fair area is what I'm referring to. Buffs that you use on your entire army, the kind where you keep your units within a fair radius of a commander or sub commander so that as many units as possible benefit from the buff.

I'm sorry I got my terms confused, yes CSM do 9 more damage with their melee, I know this. My point was they aren't going to stand up to Shees or Sluggas in a fair fight, even if they do shoot on approach. Having the option to melee on a ranged unit is nice but you get arangedunit to be good at ranged damage, not melee. This is a good example of what you said earlier - a jack of all trades unit tends to be not quite as effective as a unit that specialises and does it's job very well. My only point was that like Havoks and Devs, Tacs perform their role much better as a ranged unit. Having said this, I LIKE that CSM are a little different, you can catch players in retreat and use that melee damage bonus to pick off a few models. I wasn't complaining, merely noting how it is difficult to win those early engagements against Tacs or higher damage ranged units without clever hero use and Tic worship and how the health Tacs have means that getting into melee without eternal war, even with higher melee damage is not an engagement in your favour - the health of the Tacs overcome this making it a winning engagement for them at range and close combat. This is not to say it is unbalanced or that SM are unbeatable, just that hero use and Tic worship are very important. Can we please stop talking about CSM now

We got at NM because you can't look at 1 unit of 1 race in vacuum. Those bolter wielding NM's are called CSM.

Again with the NM, this had NOTHING TO DO WITH MY POST. Why do you think criticizing my view on individual units has anything to do with discussing large scale buffs and debuffs? How are you being even remotely helpful?? It just sounds to me like your trying to pick a fight. Stop with this weird ass derailing of the conversation.

NM are great yes, much better than flamer Tacs in combat but you seem to be putting them down pretty hard and putting them in a vacuum yourself. Having a flame weapon as an upgrade makes it a much better tool for burning down gens specifically and does actually save you resources. You can simply purchase the flamer as and when you need it to bash power, I rarely ever use it in combat since SM have pretty good piercing dps anyways and most units that are vulnerable to flame weapons are also vulnerable to piercing damage. The advantage is you can buy it on short notice as and when you need it and for a unit that is already standing next to your opponents power i.e. if you've just forced them off. If you don't need it, you can get rid of it and exchange it for a more suitable weapon. NM don't have this option. SM's whole deal is their excellent ability to quickly adapt while on the battlefield. Once you buy NM you have to commit, buying NM just to bash power when they're not useful against your enemy (such as against SM Tacs where their flamer damage isn't very effective in terms of damage or they can be tied up easily) isn't as cost effective, whereas a single bash with the Tac flamer pretty much pays for itself. Yes, NM are a better unit in combat but to say the Tac flamer isn't useful in its own way is very narrow minded I feel.

To get the same utility as Tacs you'd have to buy CSM + NM = 400 req + 350 req + 30 Pow = 750 req 30 pow.

Tacs = 450 Req + 65 req + 20 pow = 515 req 20 pow. You don't get two units simultaneously and this is the disadvantage but even if you buy another Tac squad you still save power and you can revert back from the flamer and get upgrades like an AC or a totally different weapon set all together. This was what I was trying to get across - they do something NM simply can't do.

Yes, Devs are light AV in T1. That's a big deal. I wasn't comparing them to a lascannon, that would be ridiculous. But what other races have this? Also 75 req is super cheap. So devastating against IG when you can lay down that AOE damage and switch to VR against the Sentinels and it eats your req rather than power you could be using to tech. A shorter tear down time allows you to save your Devs from the worst of jump and ranged damage, allowing them a better chance to survive and reposition. I don't understand how you can think this isn't useful. Please don't be so dismissive of Devs, they are a very solid unit.

If you want advice, take the advice instead of arguing with said advice.

What advice?

You quite literally just listed abilities. How is that helpful? The other posters gave me combinations, this is helpful.

My original post, if we could get back to it at some point, was asking how to get the same effect that many of the other races have with these large AOE buffs and that I cannot seem to find these in any other form other than worship. Termies Demoralise is a good one but other than that, none of the others you mentioned are both:

A) Powerful. i.e. A large percentage buff.

and

B) Have a wide range

Other races seem to have more options or powerful options to achieve this kind of kind of buff layering or buffing large numbers of units. Tics seem to be this option instead and I get that, they require no energy management, you get them as soon as the game starts and I've been experimenting with stacking all the other buffs with them. Tzeentch worship + garrisoned units has been doing me well, also using them with a the demon shield and even a shrine stacks up seemingly well. Am I right in saying that buffs and debuffs are multiplied? As in they don't stack: 35% + 20% doesn't = 55%...? More like 42%...?

Maybe I'll start another thread in the strategy section, you can chip in there if you still want to. As for now, this discussion was exceedingly difficult, try not to get so aggravated, it wasn't helpful and we totally strayed from what I wanted to talk about. See you in game some time.

[Dark Riku]

My only point was that like Havoks and Devs, Tacs perform their role much better as a ranged unit.

And my whole point is that this isn't true at all. Eternal war alone makes this not correct, not to speak of TCSM.
I'm noting how it's not hard to win early engagements. Clever hero use? Tie up tacs. Clever worship use? Press the worship button. Not rocket science...

Yes, again with NM's, they were spoken about in a way that doesn't do them justice, hence they are now part in this topic.
Fun fact: NM's debuff the enemy, effected enemies can't shoot or use ranged abilities, or they can knock them on their ass.

Their is no derailing, you can't just look at one aspect of a race without looking at the rest.
Just for the record, if it wasn't clear, I do not share your opinion at all on not having enough buffs/debuffs available for Chaos.

Having flamer as an option does not make it a better bashing tool. What am I reading here? °_O
I don't see how buying an upgrade save you resources ...
Short notice upgrade?, 25 sec upgrade... replace the flamer? That's only possible in t2, and your eco needs to be able to actually waste resources like that...
NM's have the option to upgrade to artillery for a mere 75 req come T2 ...
What are you saying? NM's not useful versus tacs? NM's shut down any ranged unit...
I also never claimed that the tac flamer isn't useful....
°_O

To get the same utility?! I didn't know tacs could split up into 2 units! You do realise you have an extra squad on the field then, right?!

Yeah, flamer tacs do something that NM's never can do and that is being straight up worse.
Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher, Sergeant, Sternguard. Tacs don't get an AC (aspiring Champion? assault cannon?)

What other races have light AV in T1? Try any power melee squad.
Targetters also lock you out of your hard AV option. For a race that is supposed to be flexible...

Because the teardown time doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, a trait also shared by all other suppression teams.
Teardown doesn't help you deal with enemy units. When Chaos has tics to defend the havocs and all these other things already mentioned.

I listed abilities because you were under the wrong assumption of Chaos not having these buffs/debuffs.

Yeah, you're right, bloodlust is really not a big deal, menacing visage is also not helpfull, demonic shield sucks too. Oh wait....

Other races do not have more option with a wide range, this is exactly why I told you to go and list them all.

It wasn't helpful to you as you seemed to just seek confirmation on your wrong observations...
And if you don't want to discuss any of the above topic, why do you keep posting about them then? Like on your beloved NM's topic?

[Black Maw]

Maybe I'll start another thread in the strategy section, you can chip in there if you still want to.

I could not have been any more civil so I think I'll just give up.

You can go waste someone else's thread and time

[Dark Riku]

What I think you mean is: "I have no real arguments, sorry for wasting your time."

Bye.

[Cyris]

My summary of this thread:

I guess I'm saying i need to l2p and I'm asking for tips aha

Riku: Spends time giving dozens and dozens of tips, explaining balance implications and the benefits of difference between races.

You can go waste someone else's thread and time

Me: Stopped reading Maw's posts about halfway through, learned a lot from reading Riku's.

Conclusion: I hope you make more threads like this Maw. Please continue to ask for tips, then explain to vastly more experienced players why they are wrong, so that the rest of us can learn in the process!

[Atlas]

And with that, the moral is learned.