IG imbalances

[Soberson]

The most amusing is: regardless who wins in IG mirror overall conclusion would be "IG is fine" because IG has won.

Looking forward to watch the show though, no doubt about it

[HARRYY]

Fr33man has proved himself in tournaments, even I know this when I've been gone for months and months >.<

sorry i havent skimmed through last 3 years of elite history =) i was checking his games on the ESL ladddr and did not see something

The most amusing is: regardless who wins in IG mirror overall conclusion would be "IG is fine" because IG has won.

Looking forward to watch the show though, no doubt about it

yeah hahha. i dont see the point either. wozld actually prefer to see him beating top 10 orks&chaos

Btw i cannot see Freeman beating some1 good.

Okay the duel is settled then i've added you for 1vs1's BO3 and i will post the games

give me some time for this, you are 3years ahead atm. glad to see you improved so much and made yourself a name amongst the elitists =) btw there is nothing more boring than IG-mirrors

oh wait... if you beat me, you still havent beat some1 good

[Codex]

I'm sure he'll just point to a bunch of casts where he beats what you call good players. I've casted more than a few in my time.

Btw do you realise how inflammatory saying something like "you haven't beat someone good" is? If you doubt him, you could just ask "can you show me some evidence where you beat a good player?" Small differences like that make all the difference, and I can tell you I'm finding your attitude uncool.

[Tinibombini]

oh wait... if you beat me, you still havent beat some1 good

Well he will have beaten someone who considers themselves good enough to complain about balance on a near daily basis.

[HARRYY]

Oh my dear gentlemen! Get over it !
I didnt know about fr33man being so good meanwhile, we often played 1v1 in vanilla.
Freeman! Heres my official Sorry, I didnt mean to offend you, but I guess you know this.

Would it break artillery spotter if you give them more HP? No. Do they need it though? No.
- Would it break CSM if they got 30 more HP? No. Do they need it though? No. See how that works?

hrhrhr, YESSS when I read the changelog of 2.4 and 2.5 I do: (just some random bits)

-Angels of Death cooldown decreased from 180 to 120s -- was it needed? No!
-Chosen Plague Marines now have melee resistance -- was it needed? No! But forget about synergy, Bro.
- Dark Age of Technology cost reduced from 100/30 to 75/30 -- was it needed? No! But its there ! hahahaah
- Bloodcrusher cost reduced from 300/60 down to 250/60 --- was it needed? Hell, No. bloodcrusher overrated.
- Tactical Space Marine Plasma Gun damage increased from 65 to 75 -- Was needed? not needed, but heyyyyy, why not!?....
- Increased Librarian ranged bolter damage from 14 to 30.8 -- was it needed? No. We just wanted SM to not only win with their T3. Making him attractive was a very good idea.

Hell, the list could go on with stuff that wasnt a necessity.... what I am trying to say:
THERE WAS DEEP FINE-TUNING AROUND FOR SM-STUFF.
I guess no one really cares to give IG a bit of variety, theres no real lobby. If one speaks of tuning IG he gots shredded that its all fine. Noisy here, Noisy there. Wait until VindicareX eventually masters SM after he goofed enough with OM and you hopefully will have "OMG NERF SM" flags everywhere. But wait, 50% play SM. Enjoy your mirrors.

Because the old armor upgrade brings nothing for IG, it's useless, takes up space and is only there as a trap for newer players.

Riku man, I said it was situational and I mean it this way. it was NOT useless when you tried to really safe your sentinal in a cornered situation. You could put the upgrade on and cancel it later if not needed.. was a nice trick back then. It could safe him! It was also pretty good when conflicting other vehicles in a 1v1 environment. It was definately NOT useless and had a appearance in late-game.
If somebody is confused by that, then im sorry. dont buy it. I dont see any valid argument for not having it, [irony]except "its fine as it is now"[/irony].


I know im not making friends here, but its no problem.

[Tinibombini]

Oh my dear gentlemen! Get over it !

-Angels of Death cooldown decreased from 180 to 120s -- was it needed? No!
-Chosen Plague Marines now have melee resistance -- was it needed? No! But forget about synergy, Bro.
- Dark Age of Technology cost reduced from 100/30 to 75/30 -- was it needed? No! But its there ! hahahaah
- Bloodcrusher cost reduced from 300/60 down to 250/60 --- was it needed? Hell, No. bloodcrusher overrated.
- Tactical Space Marine Plasma Gun damage increased from 65 to 75 -- Was needed? not needed, but heyyyyy, why not!?....
- Increased Librarian ranged bolter damage from 14 to 30.8 -- was it needed? No. We just wanted SM to not only win with their T3. Making him attractive was a very good idea.

Well with an indepth analysis like that, who can really argue. I guess none of the changes were needed at all.

You might want to think about how you present your arguments. They are...less than convincing and it is very hard to take you seriously.

[HARRYY]

the point (or problem) is the perception of things.

Some stuff is OK and considered "needed a fine-tuning" (SM acorss the roster with all upgrades received soo much of tuning, giving everything a spot/role, or tweaked being useful/allroundy enough), while other stuff is just "fine as it is". I cant argue with someone saying "its fine as it is" - you could also say "it is, how it is" ... and then you come up with "until there is still one capable player out there winning one match with IG, its fine".. I tried to talk about IGs-meta recently, about their weaknesses. Going into there, it would be nice to give IG more options etc withing their build-orders, TUNING STUFF. slight helps to transition better etc. But since theres no lobby asking for an IG-Tuning, they would only receive tone-downs in their shining areas. you can see this unwanted-child in the changelogs in what has been bufffed and what has been nerfed on IG.

[Dark Riku]

You might want to think about how you present your arguments. They are...less than convincing and it is very hard to take you seriously.

This.

[Oddnerd]

I don't see why spotters need more hp. Each model already has twice the HP of a regular GM, which is quite generous, since they are just GM with some binoculars and a mortar. Considering that they should be a screen's length away from any action most of the time, their hitpoints are not an issue if you are using them the way the experienced IG players do.

I'd be open to reduced bleed cost if it was proposed, but at the moment I find that they fulfill their role more than amply.

[Dark Riku]

Check your facts Harry, seriously.
For example GM:

Guardsmen Squad

Reduced pop on Sergeant from 6 to 3
Sergeant upkeep decreased from 2.55 to 0.85
Reduced pop on Commissar from 6 to 3
Commissar upkeep decreased from 2.55 to 0.85
Improved build rate on Heavy Cover
Flamer cost decreased from 80/20 to 65/15
Flamer range increased from 20 to 24
Flamer courage damage increased from 0 to 2
Plasma Guns cost decreased from 100/25 to 90/25
Multi-laser Turret now has the "Improved Fortification" upgrade
Multi-laser Turret with "Improved Fortification" now refunds an additional 25/5 on "Salvage"

How the hell is that not fine-tuning them?! Go check it all out!
Source: Change log from the site (not completely up to date, just to give you an idea)

SM got as many changes as other races and were the ones in desperate need of change, they were absolute trash in retail.
And how are we supposed to argue with you? You base yourself on your own ideas instead of on facts and come over as IG biased.
And yes we bring up Fr33man and Noisy for IG. What would be the point of bringing in scrubs??

[HARRYY]

Riku, it says: use GM en masse and get shredded by AOE, suppresion, and KB (weirdboy, devs,projectiles, etc). AND USE DAT BUNKERS....

ofc, im exaggerating (thats my style u know meanwhile). But something else?

SM got as many changes as other races and were the ones in desperate need of change, they were absolute trash in retail.

and how did Vindi beat the crap out of anybody with SM? I consider him one of the best SM-players IIRC (also chaos ofc). You also been pretty decent with SM. how does it feel right now? eveything cool over there? all fine?

[Codex]

Well, here's Vindi's take on SM 1v1 in retail:

Idk if Choko ever had the joy of playing as Space Marines in high level 1v1 (especially tournaments), but it was a nightmare. I almost felt like being auto-defeated in loading screen versus Lictor Alpha (one of the strongest 1v1 heroes).

I will say that Eldar, Tyranids, and Inquisitor were/are the strongest 1v1 factions in vanilla and to try to deny this is to not know anything about DoW2.
- Like, I wish my faction (SM/Chaos) had an extremely fast, lethal, and easy to use melee unit that could punish players hard that you get right out the gate (banshees...). I can't tell you how many times in the past (and even recently) where I see the unit murder squads on retreat with ease. Not because of some brilliant flanking maneuver or smart use of positioning, but because they simply destroy most units 1 to 1. For example, an ASM squad EASILY loses to a banshee squad in vanilla, despite the huge difference in costs. This scenario creates an extremely frustrating play and imbalanced the match up - requiring an inordinate amount of micro and resources on my part to simply deal with a unit that may single-handedly win the game if I'm not careful (can you tell I'm glad banshees aren't as "good" in Elite).
- Just an example of Eldar 1v1 strength

I for one am glad for extended options this mod opens up.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2391&p=52719#p52719

If you aren't willing to listen to Riku's opinion perhaps you will listen to his.

[Dark Riku]

and how did Vindi beat the crap out of anybody with SM? I consider him one of the best SM-players IIRC.

He didn't, he used Chaos.

But something else?

Yeah, you're hopeless. Have fun in scrubville without actually learning anything or getting better.
Just keep complaining and showing everyone what a scrub you are. Don't give up! We really need someone to laugh at. That's always fun

[Ace of Swords]

yeah, maybe I lack adaption from vainilla-thinking. still wishful on some stuff.


Btw i cannot see Freeman beating some1 good.

Just to point it out, freeman's LC wrecks my ass hard in 1v1s

[HARRYY]

yeah, Im helping you having fun

[Codex]

So are we gonna get this thread back on track or is it lock time?

[HARRYY]

hmm,.. actually its obsolete since everything is fine. I will L2P now.

we should have locked it earlier, since there was nothing to discuss at all.