Ork Topic

[MyMe]

You can't really criticize someone for bumping a "dead thread" when it's the "ork topic." Otherwise, they would be creating new threads about discussed info and everyone would be all over that person for "making useless threads."

Anyways, regen was removed from spiky armor a while back Riku, and while it gives decent HP (250 I believe), that's not really worth 25 power. And I still stand behind the argument that it just does not do enough; the damage is not only the worst damage type in the game, but it is only effective against maybe 3 units in the game, and those units can simply let the rest of the army focus the WB and go do something else useful.

It CAN be useful in very rare circumstances, yes. But it does not scale at all and is, imo, far TOO situational. Not to mention Cybork Implants being far superior (for cheaper and only 50 hp less), because not only can it be used as a melee deterrent to the squads Spiky Armor is effective against, but it is useful against ALL infantry, and can be used offensively as well. Plus, an AOE stun scales perfectly fine later into the game, whereas the pitiful damage on Spiky Armor won't.

[Vapor]

A few random ideas for spiky armor. I will not say anything about its current state of balance, just throwing out some thoughts.

- make it passively do dmg to units very near the warboss, say radius 3 or 5 (spikes hurt!)
- or, make it passively stun units near the warboss for a very short duration (1 second or so). Possible synergy with angry bits charge
- or, make it debuff enemies that the warboss strikes in melee. Slow, stun, increased dmg taken, whatever


Of course the armor might have to increased in cost with a buff, but at least it would be interesting and do something besides act as a simple melee deterrent

[Dark Riku]

There is no pressing question to be answered.

Not referring to the Ork balance thread.

[Codex]

To be honest, for what it does, it does so admirably. Look at it this way: if the meta was to be such that everyone did melee heavy builds, spikey armor would be good, even for cost. Thus it's made situational by the metagame. So in that sense I don't think a flat buff would work: to make it compete with big stomp you'd have to buff it to epic proportions. Therefore I'd argue that the only way to make it less situational is to totally redesign the armor.

[Batpimp]

I don't see how that is funny. :/

Shooting and/or suppressing the wb is a counter to him, armor or not.

A wb player isn't going to get this vs a shooty build either.
Unless it's purely for the regen and charge combo.

its funny because its effing TRUE! In all your games ive seen you play have you EVER seen anyone get this war gear? I havent gotten it maybe 4 times. twice cause i was curious and two more times when it was updated and i was curious again. this thing is pretty stupid as is. Needs a change. A buff doesnt help an unused war gear

[Batpimp]

You can't really criticize someone for bumping a "dead thread" when it's the "ork topic." Otherwise, they would be creating new threads about discussed info and everyone would be all over that person for "making useless threads."

Anyways, regen was removed from spiky armor a while back Riku, and while it gives decent HP (250 I believe), that's not really worth 25 power. And I still stand behind the argument that it just does not do enough; the damage is not only the worst damage type in the game, but it is only effective against maybe 3 units in the game, and those units can simply let the rest of the army focus the WB and go do something else useful.

It CAN be useful in very rare circumstances, yes. But it does not scale at all and is, imo, far TOO situational. Not to mention Cybork Implants being far superior (for cheaper and only 50 hp less), because not only can it be used as a melee deterrent to the squads Spiky Armor is effective against, but it is useful against ALL infantry, and can be used offensively as well. Plus, an AOE stun scales perfectly fine later into the game, whereas the pitiful damage on Spiky Armor won't.

Exactly!...If its never used, and even when it can be used i can use big stomp to better effect, why would i get this? It seems that you guys are basing on this on the idea that the wargear is used. I dont think i have ever seen it used against me once and like i said earlier i have maybe used it 4-5 times ever. Much better to upgrade a unit or another warboss ability than waste resources on this. It scales like CRAP too

[Batpimp]

To be honest, for what it does, it does so admirably. Look at it this way: if the meta was to be such that everyone did melee heavy builds, spikey armor would be good, even for cost. Thus it's made situational by the metagame. So in that sense I don't think a flat buff would work: to make it compete with big stomp you'd have to buff it to epic proportions. Therefore I'd argue that the only way to make it less situational is to totally redesign the armor.

exactly for what it COULD do its a great idea. but its never used because there are way better options. I vote for a redesign as well. Buffing it seems useless since almost nobody uses it.

[Tex]

I admit that you do have a point about the meta codex, but I still disagree on almost everything else you've said.

First off, any warboss player left in this game knows for damn sure that big stomp and 'eavy armor are the only armor options that the warboss has. I know I don't have to explain how "big stomp" scales all the way into end game with its ability to disable level 10 heros and terminators, and how "spiky feedback damage" doesn't scale past 3 units in the game (hormas, cultists, and sluggas).

Second, buying this armor in a team game seems to me like even more of a joke. Could you find me a seriously played replay of a game where this armor was used to counter a melee heavy build? I highly doubt it my friend.

Third, I don't think this armor needs to be redesigned. I think it needs a perk like it had before, along with an appropriate cost. My idea was that this armor caused fear in enemy units such that they are slowed by lets say 15-20% when the warboss shoots at them or hits them in melee. At 130-25, it gives this armor a clear path for use and combinations.

And please do keep in mind, I haven't played warboss in probably 4 months, so please, don't be pulling the orky favoritism card on me.

[Ace of Swords]

my 2 cents, the spiky armor is not fine, but there is no need for it to exsist, the cyborg implants cover the anti-infantry and the heavy armor covers the anti-ranged aswell as gives the WB more surviability overall when it adds 600hp, what would be the role of the spiky armor then?

[Dark Riku]

its funny because its effing TRUE! In all your games ive seen you play have you EVER seen anyone get this war gear? I havent gotten it maybe 4 times. twice cause i was curious and two more times when it was updated and i was curious again. this thing is pretty stupid as is. Needs a change. A buff doesnt help an unused war gear

I use it :/

[Codex]

Re: Tex

1. I disagree with the idea that you can't have a transitory armor that is situational yet viable to get and then build into eavy armor. For example, I build Sanguine Chainsword into a Power Axe against Chaos a lot as Apo, the idea being to get the Apo aggressively levelled before taking on the power axe, which has more late game utility. The fact remains that if you cannot draw melee aggro onto him, the primary purpose of the armor is completely useless.

2. I was never saying that it was a super serious game, I was just saying that when there were trolly games it performed really well, at the job it was meant to have i.e. countering melee blobs. The issue is that most seriously played games are not played on this premise.

3. I think it's a bad idea to give him such a massive speed debuff. It would mean never kite from the Warboss ever again. Throw on a nasty weapon, and UYC? Ouch.

The idea of giving him a perk like that makes little sense. The spikey armor part counters melee, and the slow debuff allows him to chase down ranged, not to mention prevent disengagement by any melee who are foolish enough to go near him. You already have kustom shoota which prevents kiting, why make it so generalist? Because it doesn't scale?

If you want to make it more useful, we should find some way that augments its anti-melee capability, rather than making it an anti-all transitory armor.

[Indrid]

@Ace of Swords: Dunno if you just typo'd but 'Eavy is +900 hp

I think Spiky should either:

1) Give a melee damage buff to the WB kinda like Harness of Rage does to the CL, rewarding a Warboss that wants to charge in with Angry Bits and start going after high value targets rather than the very effective Charge + Big Stomp.

Might be OTT damage with the Bang Bang in T1 especially taking out Marines and Warriors.... but pretty pricey to get both, or all three if you want an accessory in T1 too while also wanting the obligatory Shoota upgrades and perhaps Stormboyz to counter the probable set-up team.

2) Make the AoE damage passive, not on-hit. So kinda like Icon of Nurgle but much shorter range, as if any model simply "touching" the WB is affected. Damage values/cost etc re-evaluated. Would have some cool synergy with Angry Bitz since you'd "touch" any units you charge through and smack them over to take some more Spiky damage.

[Vapor]

2) Make the AoE damage passive, not on-hit. So kinda like Icon of Nurgle but much shorter range, as if any model simply "touching" the WB is affected. Damage values/cost etc re-evaluated. Would have some cool synergy with Angry Bitz since you'd "touch" any units you charge through and smack them over to take some more Spiky damage.

I'm a big fan of this.

[Tex]

Fair enough codex.

I wasn't hardballing numbers though, the speed debuff is just an idea and the numbers could be made to whatever works really. You could even make it so that the unit is only slowed if it is hit by a melee attack. But you can see that the perk is what makes this armor egotistic and thus, gives it a clear path.

Of course there are lots of other perks you could tack on, but I still feel like I'm standing on solid ground here. Transitory or not, this armor is not on par internally or externally. It needs a perk outside of its obvious purpose.

Ok a thought just entered my brain so lets try this one on for size.

Have you ever noticed that the spiky armor is only good against units that the warboss already hard-counters with his default stomp? Well how about if the perk that spiky armor gave was a chance of knockback to melee attackers? I can see this perk actually making this armor scale into early t3 because now it is useful against the melee units that will engage a warboss, spiky armor or no. With this perk it would be useful against ASM, Purifiers, KCSM, Banshees, and most importantly, pesky warlocks lol.

What do you guys think?

[Raffa]

I would implement both of Indrid's ideas. So Spiky Armor would give -

+10p/c melee damage
Damages all units within radius 3 (5?) Of the warboss for 3 hp/sec.

This would give it harness of rage-esque utility, and ofc now I'm angry lets the warboss get close in to instantly start using this.

Tex, your idea is nice and certainly has merit, I just personally think Indrid's suggestion is more practical. Would certainly try out your version of the armor if it was implemented though.

[dance commander]

@Ace of Swords: Dunno if you just typo'd but 'Eavy is +900 hp

I think Spiky should either:

1) Give a melee damage buff to the WB kinda like Harness of Rage does to the CL, rewarding a Warboss that wants to charge in with Angry Bits and start going after high value targets rather than the very effective Charge + Big Stomp.

Might be OTT damage with the Bang Bang in T1 especially taking out Marines and Warriors.... but pretty pricey to get both, or all three if you want an accessory in T1 too while also wanting the obligatory Shoota upgrades and perhaps Stormboyz to counter the probable set-up team.

I thought the same thing once, but instead of a damage buff like harness of rage I thought a moderate splash would do, it would also fit with the spiky theme.
Also wasn't the bang bang hammer changed to normal damage instead of power I don't see how it would be strong against marines or warriors.

[Tex]

Yes it was reverted back to melee_pvp

[Indrid]

It's not power melee yes but still does big chunks afaik. Isn't it 100 DPS or so?

[Torpid]

Not so sure how happy I am to make it do passive damage. The way I see it is that the role of the spiky armour is to create a unit that an enemies melee cannot fight, and so this unit can easily engage his key ranged squads. Of course if he is not investing in any melee and rushes suppression then other wargears are more fitting. So any tweaks to the wargear should aid in this role. For example then, it could buff the warboss' passive speed by 0.5, or increase his regen either naturally or when in combat, just because the armour is an offensive play, whereas the cybork is inherently more defensive.

Let's think about the match ups here. In an ork mirror where you are fighting something other than the warboss. In this MU you can utilise the spiky armour to ensure that your warboss is constantly tying up their ranged units and in doing that, if he drops his micro for a second those shootas lose a fair chunk of hp from the splash, furthermore he can't counter initiate your WB with melee because they'll die instantly to spiky armour+stomp, now if this hp regen boost was in effect it could really make the wargear a viable option to use against heavy melee builds, or an opponent who would struggle to contain the warboss such as the chaos sorceror etc.

[Torpid]

It's not power melee yes but still does big chunks afaik. Isn't it 100 DPS or so?

75dps Indrid, you have a tendency for forgetting this one

100dps in t1 would be daft.

[Asmon]

With this perk it would be useful against ASM, Purifiers, KCSM, Banshees, and most importantly, pesky warlocks lol.

What do you guys think?

http://nooooooooooooooo.com/

Yes BBH is quite good against everything thanks to its absurd damage and ability.

No Tex Knockback for every melee attack would be OP as hell. Any melee hero that is not 100% resilient to weapon kb would be eventually screwed against the WB. Give it a small percentage perhaps, but it might be either useless or still OP.

What you could have is a passive kb in radius something everytime the WB himself is kb'ed.

[Batpimp]

Low damage, short range, AoE passive sounds good to me.

[Indrid]

Right 75 dps, keep forgetting it attacks so slowly.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I completely disagree with give to Spiky armour a melee damage increase. The Warboss already have ways to increase his damage (UYC, Now I'm angry, WAAAAAAGH!! Call da Boyz!, WAAAAAGH!! banner...) and IMHO don't need another passive one.

[dance commander]

Not so sure how happy I am to make it do passive damage. The way I see it is that the role of the spiky armour is to create a unit that an enemies melee cannot fight, and so this unit can easily engage his key ranged squads. Of course if he is not investing in any melee and rushes suppression then other wargears are more fitting. So any tweaks to the wargear should aid in this role. For example then, it could buff the warboss' passive speed by 0.5, or increase his regen either naturally or when in combat, just because the armour is an offensive play, whereas the cybork is inherently more defensive.

Let's think about the match ups here. In an ork mirror where you are fighting something other than the warboss. In this MU you can utilise the spiky armour to ensure that your warboss is constantly tying up their ranged units and in doing that, if he drops his micro for a second those shootas lose a fair chunk of hp from the splash, furthermore he can't counter initiate your WB with melee because they'll die instantly to spiky armour+stomp, now if this hp regen boost was in effect it could really make the wargear a viable option to use against heavy melee builds, or an opponent who would struggle to contain the warboss such as the chaos sorceror etc.

I think I've already said this some time ago but, the problem is that the "don't attack the warboss in melee" is something that already happens because he's the warboss with his stomp ability, you already don't want to go in melee, and if you feel that's not enough, you get the cyborg armor to make the idea of getting in melee even scarier, not only that but you can use it even if the enemy units aren't actively attacking the warboss, so it's also an offensive wargear wich scales well in the lategame, honestly I don't even know why we're arguing about this, spiky armour is inferior to all the other warboss armours, even in its intended role(defensive one).

[Tex]

With this perk it would be useful against ASM, Purifiers, KCSM, Banshees, and most importantly, pesky warlocks lol.

What do you guys think?

http://nooooooooooooooo.com/

Yes BBH is quite good against everything thanks to its absurd damage and ability.

No Tex Knockback for every melee attack would be OP as hell. Any melee hero that is not 100% resilient to weapon kb would be eventually screwed against the WB. Give it a small percentage perhaps, but it might be either useless or still OP.

What you could have is a passive kb in radius something everytime the WB himself is kb'ed.

Asmon, I want you to go back and look at my post. Where exactly did I say that this armor should knockback melee attackers 100% of the time? I said "a chance of knockback" to melee attackers.

...

[Asmon]

I never go back.

Sorry =)

[Batpimp]

tried the spiky armor with a warboss as enemy today as always sluggas ignored me even at low health... I dont even think he noticed i had spiky armor on.

...posting my next try with it once i get a chance.

[Dark Riku]

I think I've already said this some time ago but, the problem is that the "don't attack the warboss in melee" is something that already happens because he's the warboss with his stomp ability, you already don't want to go in melee, and if you feel that's not enough, you get the cyborg armor to make the idea of getting in melee even scarier, not only that but you can use it even if the enemy units aren't actively attacking the warboss, so it's also an offensive wargear wich scales well in the lategame, honestly I don't even know why we're arguing about this, spiky armour is inferior to all the other warboss armours, even in its intended role(defensive one).

Stomp is easily baited. And then the melee rape can begin. Like ~shes for example.
The armor is just fine.

[Tex]

Riku, stop it. I demand you post replays of spiky armor dominance. It isn't fine.

Do you see me bitching about apo heal getting a well deserved leveling buff (amongst other wargear buffs)? No.

Do you see me saying that painboy heal is balanced? No.

I am trying to be objective (and unbiased) and really push for viable options in this game. More options and more diversity makes the game that much cooler. Tbh, I am already struggling against the warboss in most matchups as it is. But thats not the point. The point is that spiky armor is internally and externally under-performing.

It is just so clear right now that you aren't even giving "objective" a chance in this topic.