Acid Splatter

[Nuclear Arbitor]

I was surprised to see in that equation that Chaos is listed as stronger than SM. And even more surprising that IG is listed at the very bottom.

Where did this piece of unexplainable crap come from?

have you checked the toilet recently?

[Torpid]

I was surprised to see in that equation that Chaos is listed as stronger than SM. And even more surprising that IG is listed at the very bottom.

Where did this piece of unexplainable crap come from?

I'll probably derive a proper proof for you later at some point, a bit busy these days, but it will come eventually. The premise of it is, out of each race if we sum the number of favourable matches and disfavourable matches for each hero, and the extent to which they are such, quantitatively, then which turns out to have the lowest value, which has the highest. By the way, it actually has IG listed as the same as SM.

[Raffa]

I promised myself I was not coming back to these forums, but some things here are really starting to get to me and are simply incorrect. Particularly how people are trying to categorise races according to their apparent strength in 1v1.

Not so long ago I too was one of those who believed that certain races were clearly stronger than others in 1v1, however I was, as most are now, mistaken. It is simply that the basic meta builds for X race were trumping those for Y race, and since the vast majority of the playerbase does not possess the right combination of will and ability to evolve the metagame, they were largely fucked and so started complaining about balance to solve problems created by their lack of ability/will respectively.

I played quite extensively with Noisy a few weeks ago and his combination of new BOs and skill is currently pretty much unstoppable. In fact I've only seen one player go more than 15 minutes with him and that was Tyger in Indrid's cast. Noisy was kind enough to teach me the basics of these builds, and although I've only just begun learning them and am making lots of errors, the improvements are dramatic.

The point is that most people want to stick to tried and tested methods without exploring new builds for the aforementioned reasons. Consequently they cannot evolve their strategies and so when faced with an opponent that trumps them, they are beaten over and over again and whine about how unfair the balance is. So don't post this crap about X race being better that Y race. Try experimenting with some new builds for Y race and actually make a concentrated effort at them.

If you won't do that then go ahead and stick with scout/tac/scout/asm or whatever all the time but please stop complaining about the balance or matchups being unfair if you can't evolve the way you play.

[Torpid]

Why are you here?

Regardless, I think you're gravely misunderstanding the point of such categorisations. It's not saying oh tyranids are the best race, everyone play tyranids, no point playing anything else or you're screwed. It's just how atm, in the current meta, the race that happens to have the most favourable MUs. It doesn't necessarily equate that there is a balance issue and it certainly isn't set in stone to stay like that even if no changes were made.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

he's back to leave a wall of text.

his point is that trying new build orders makes a huge difference, quite possibly the bias of certain match ups.

[Raffa]

Why are you here?

Because the game needs more people like me and less like you. I'm not always politically correct but I do know what I'm talking about and don't bullshit. Unlike you.

his point is that trying new build orders makes a huge difference, quite possibly the bias of certain match ups.

Precisely.

[Torpid]

Yes, because the best players consistently throw themselves at a wall, bang their head then decide the best course of action to get through this wall is to throw themselves at it again head first.

[Kvek]

Yes, because the best players consistently throw themselves at a wall, bang their head then decide the best course of action to get through this wall is to throw themselves at it again head first.

Lolwut.

[Codex]

Raffa, you made a good point, but don't think I can't see your snarky tone and Torpid's veiled flame, so same for you. Stick to the topic; this is not your personal flame war arena.

Like this:

Because the game needs more people like me and less like you. I'm not always politically correct but I do know what I'm talking about and don't bullshit. Unlike you.

Is totally unnecessary. And Raffa, I think you may want to look up what Politically correct is again. Unless you've been calling Jonah Orion a Negro, in which case you're in big trouble.

Yes, because the best players consistently throw themselves at a wall, bang their head then decide the best course of action to get through this wall is to throw themselves at it again head first.

I don't understand why you wrote this Torpid. Neither of you said that this is what the best players do, and sarcasm/irony only works if someone has stated that as their belief.

[Torpid]

"since the vast majority of the playerbase does not possess the right combination of will and ability to evolve the metagame, they were largely fucked and so started complaining about balance to solve problems created by their lack of ability/will respectively"

"most people want to stick to tried and tested methods without exploring new builds...Consequently they cannot evolve their strategies and so when faced with an opponent that trumps them, they are beaten over and over again and whine about how unfair the balance is...Try experimenting with some new builds for Y race and actually make a concentrated effort at them.

[Codex]

I presume with the terms "best players" and "the vast majority of the playerbase" that you can find some players who do not come under both categories.

Raffa's point: the vast majority of the playerbase
Your retort: the best players

I hope that's clear.

[crazyman64335]

am i the only one laughing at 2 people arguing over a video game? seriously guys grow up and learn to argue in a constructive manner instead of verbally attacking eathother's intellect.

regardless i feel the wargear is perfectly fine in it's current state, it's good but not game breaking or even that solid of a choice, imo the devourer is a much stronger option in t2 but that's my personal preference.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i think you are. it's the same as arguing over sports and countries have gone to war over sports.

[crazyman64335]

i think you are. it's the same as arguing over sports and countries have gone to war over sports.

actually theres only 1 recorded "war" over sports and that's the football war of 1969 between Honduras and El Salvador which lasted 100 hours. Regardless this is getting off topic quick.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

that's the one i was thinking of. plenty of riots though.

[JuhwannX]

So how about that Acid Splatter?

[Tex]

I have been using acid splatter a fair bit... trying to figure out if all the fuss is worth any merit. It definitely is pretty strong, but all I really needed to ask myself was, "am I more afraid of comparable weapons or acid splatter?", and then the answer came out pretty quickly from there.

Quite simply, the thunder hammer and nemesis halberd are WAY MORE SCARY than acid splatter, largely in part because they can be used very offensively. Both of those weapons can be accompanied by an instant teleport which means your back line is instantly wrecked. For full value usage of acid splatter, it is relegated to a defensive role, as well as having big chase potential after a unit is over-extended when combined with strengthened sinew.

The RA not only loses his ranged attack by getting acid splatter, but you also aren't equipping devourer, which is a full ranged anti-all weapon. That is a lot to sacrifice.

[Ace of Swords]

The RA not only loses his ranged attack by getting acid splatter, but you also aren't equipping devourer, which is a full ranged anti-all weapon. That is a lot to sacrifice.

You can swap weapons around and actually lose nothing, you can stack up the sinew and towers speed buffs outrunning any unit in retreat and you can kill a squad of catas in about 5 attacks with the acid splatter, and pretty much every eldar/ork/nids/tics squad in the same amount of attacks.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the halberd is a horrible thing to face with IG. they don't have anything that can deal with a leveled BC and that thing ruins GM, especially with the teleport.

[Tex]

So the RA magically just got all up in a catachan squad and isn't shot to bits first? I'm not even going to get started on how it just doesn't ever go down like that.

Also, I know of a lot of weapons that rape squads that have infantry armor aka eldar, ork, nids, tics. Is it so awful that a t2 melee splash weapon should be scary?

The one thing that I think can get out of hand is the chasing potential. But even then, if you see an RA setting up for "chase mode" then I would suggest responding with appropriate actions such as not over extending, and having your retreat path covered with a form of disruption the RA can't counter quickly (meaning if he has his knockback resistant armor, then you have a supression team).

[dance commander]

So the RA magically just got all up in a catachan squad and isn't shot to bits first?

That's kinda the whole problem for me, he is too mobile, he has various tools to help him get close, towers, speed warger and burrow(not talking specifically about catas), then there's the fact that it is now power melee.
Did you ever try fighting the RA with fully upgraded KCSM? I was shocked to see my CSM get wrecked, with reinforced chitin he just becomes that strong in melee.

I think it was one of those cases of "this commander's wargear is too weak, let's buff it" since he pretty much saw an increase in effectiveness to a lot of his wargear, not saying they didn't need work but how about improving them little by little instead of giving them a massive damage buff and change damage type while giving kb immunity to another one on a hero that can reach mach five by himself let alone with the new tower mechanics, I get the feeling there wasn't much thought gone through these changes, as if the corrosive devourer wasn't an amazing anti HI weapon already and he needed anti HI capabilities.

[Caeltos]

I get the feeling there wasn't much thought gone through these changes, as if the corrosive devourer wasn't an amazing anti HI weapon already and he needed anti HI capabilities.

A melee oriented build that does well in melee, WOAH- NO WAY, and it requires multiple wargear investment, that's craaaazy!

Besides that, he can still be supressed, and is still quite vulnerable to general ranged damage output. And besides, he doesn't quite have the same damage output as let's just compare the power_melee + splash , (Brother-Captain) or prev. existing retail FC Commander with Hammer.

The only thing that he can do better is;
- More Area of Effect damage but less direct damage
- Faster , yet more fragile

The only thing tho with the faster aspect only comes into play through either through, wargear investment, or globally investing. Alot of his wargear that orients towards melee builds are connected to each other. Much actually in certain similiarities to let's say, Plague Champion or Techmarine. You could probably tie in Kommando Nob (Boom-Time) that is a wargear that is aimed for wargear cost effiency improvement, but on it's own, it has no real merit over the others. So it's a debate of cost effiency of multiple wargears.

Melee Ravs WERE ALWAYS like that even since vanilla Dawn of War 2. Normal Ravs melee builds that were absolutely DOMINANT was due to numerous wargear upgrades. (Acid Splatter + Toxic Miasma) , on their own, they were actually just "Meh", but it's when you started combining that's when you noticed a more skyrocketing performance, and righfully so.

And plz, Corrosive Devourer wasn't primarily purchased for it's HI capabilities. You wouldn't pour that much resources for him esp Nid T2. That was like super old-meta, and that was just primarily just anyway to deal with Razorback/Trukks or Falcons anyway due to it's ability that justified it's cost to deal with the more mid-game dominant light vehicles. It would serve it's cost way more efficiently. Needless to even now, it's a rarity to even see people get, let alone any wargear at all. The tunnel themselves almost alone good enough to warrant a pick-up on the RA, or his early-game utility.

Once he starts picking up wargears, that's when he starts getting annoying, but the question to ask is, is it worth the cost investment vs army composition/upgrade timings you can get? And those factors are heavily dependant and fluxuated by how the game is going.

[dance commander]

What you're talking about would apply if the wargear would be expensive, unfortunately the whole argument is nullified when you consider the costs on the wargear we're talking about, or the "investment" on the global we're mentiong (as if it would only benefit the ravener, come on now).

Other than that, what does it even mean that you would get the devourer for its light av capabilities? Does that magically make it a bad anti HI weapon? I'm pretty sure it's one of the weapons with the highest dps in the game (as far as ranged weapons are concerned) that doesn't mean anything other than the fact that the weapon also had anti av capabilities to incentivate its purchase it doesn't mean the RA needed another anti HI weapon with associated damage buffs, also less direct damage on the splatter? if anything you buffed BOTH direct and splash damage, and he DOES have the power melee + splash of the brother captain, sure the direct damage is lower but the splash is much stronger, especially because instead of being range 3 it's range 5.

"He can be supressed" Really? I wasn't aware of the fact that pretty much every commander in the game can be supressed, except 1 (now 2) of them, unfortunately not all of them can have the same mobility of the rav.

Then on one hand you prove your argument by citing super old meta (melee rav) on the other hand you use the same argument (now for the corrosive devourer) and say it doesn't apply anymore because it was old meta, also if melee rav was always that f* good as you claim, why buff it so much? Not trying to prove anything just pointing the discrepancies.

You lowered the cost on the vast majority of his wargear in one single move while buffing and changing, the only one having a slight increase was the acid splatter. As I said in the previous post I would have liked to see more gradual changes especially when you consider the massive changes nids have had with elite, but instead it feels like you just cba and went "fuck it, let's go balls deep" and just buffed the shit out of it, I might be wrong and you really thought it out, but this is how it feels to me.

[Ace of Swords]

tex im throwing it because you probably don't know, but the RA's second armor makes him immune to KB, so i don't know what sort of distruption you want.

[Tex]

Or maybe I do, and did know.

Disruption is more than knockback. I consider stuns and suppression to also be in this category.

Also, as I stated before, if the RA is charging in offensively, he should be shot to bits before he even gets to pull his claws out. With his reinforce chitin armor, he simply doesn't have the same tanky quality or quick entry quality that other splash weapons can be accompanied with.

[Ace of Swords]

But the RA is not supposed to charge in, the RA is supposed to flank and kill retreat since it's a rocket, or to move in like any other support commander after your melee squad or blob, or perhaps the apo with power axe is up because it's gonna get raped hard if you send him first without any support? what about a pc?

This is the whole problem the RA is a support hero that's not supposed to annihilate everything he touches and with that weapon it's exactly what it does.

Also i really don't know about what stuns you are talking about, you have to always keep in mind the speed of that thing, almost everystun is an ability that requires you to be near the RA or to throw something near it, it's just not going to work. the only stun i can think of that it's point and click is the trippa shot, sure the MCB(TM) would work too to slow down the RA but it's a bad purchase vs nids.

[Torpid]

It's a very effective wargear when used defensively. Get your BSWB, venoms + 2x terms + 2x zoans and then have your AG horms+RA around with the acid splatter and not even ASM will want to jump into your blob. It shreds everything, then get his speed buff from towers+melee charge and unless you're already suppressing that blob (Which you aren't due to double zoans) the RA is gonna be taking multiple models or even the squad in retreat. Of course the whole scenario is way worse for other, more fragile jump squads. Artillery is the obvious counter to this tyranid ranged blob + counter-initiation RA, but the 2x zoans really negate that.

Yes, tyranids can do this with all heroes. Toxin miasma LA and rending talon HT do the same sorta thing, however the wipe potential is totally different, the HT is too slow and the LA doesn't have the dps. Pop a tower near the RA, add in the initial damage from such a powerful ranged + damage synapse blob and any unit that ventured into melee is really kind of doomed. I don't think the RA should ahve such an effect on the combat himself when he is such a supportive hero. He gives a little ranged dps, and should also give a little melee dps, ok the corrosive devourer is more than little but that's an expensive upgrade, maybe acid splatter just needs a bit of a price increase, 40 power maybe? The RA has tunnels, he shouldn't be more effective than a HT at scaring off enemy jump squads.

[Caeltos]

What you're talking about would apply if the wargear would be expensive, unfortunately the whole argument is nullified when you consider the costs on the wargear we're talking about, or the "investment" on the global we're mentiong (as if it would only benefit the ravener, come on now).

I don't understand anything here.

Other than that, what does it even mean that you would get the devourer for its light av capabilities? Does that magically make it a bad anti HI weapon?

It's the frequency of shot that makes it worse. It deals quite decent damage, but I wouldn't say it has the same effiency in-conjunction with the rest of the army alongside with each other, and SM + Plasma Gun (For comparison sake) roster team synergy makes the HI weapons generally more fierce. The Devourer on it's own doesn't actually make it fierce, because there's not much to go along with it to make the damage spikes.

also less direct damage on the splatter? if anything you buffed BOTH direct and splash damage, and he DOES have the power melee + splash of the brother captain, sure the direct damage is lower but the splash is much stronger, especially because instead of being range 3 it's range 5.

I said it has less direct damage compared to the Halberd. The splash is slightly better, let's not get carried away with how good it is. And yes, you catch the point that it's damage was improved.

"He can be supressed" Really? I wasn't aware of the fact that pretty much every commander in the game can be supressed, except 1 (now 2) of them, unfortunately not all of them can have the same mobility of the rav.

The point was to excess how stupid it is to allow him to just somehow spearfront the army without getting stopped. If you have issues with the Ravener Alpha headbutting and leading the army, you must have some major issues with Chaos Lord or Brother Captain.

Then on one hand you prove your argument by citing super old meta (melee rav) on the other hand you use the same argument (now for the corrosive devourer) and say it doesn't apply anymore because it was old meta, also if melee rav was always that f* good as you claim, why buff it so much? Not trying to prove anything just pointing the discrepancies.

I was merely trying to point out some design issues alongside with the tier emplacement of the wargears. Acid Splatter & Toxic Miasma used to be both Tier 1. If you acquired one gear, it could be managed with, however- as soon as you progressively unlocked them in the early-game, it got snowbally. It lost alot of it's effiency as the game progressed however.

Now, with the new approach & new general values, I feel it has alot more overall utility and flexibility. It can opt for most matchups, you're just bound to get more out of the buck for the investments versus quantity over quality matchups.

I get the feeling there wasn't much thought gone through these changes

but instead it feels like you just cba and went "fuck it, let's go balls deep" and just buffed the shit out of it

There's good criticsm, and then there's bad. This is the 3rd one, just being plain fucking disrespectful. I put most of my days on patching, experimenting, theorycrafting and coming up with stuff. I've been doing this for close to 2 years now, and you would have thought I'd be putting things into consideration by now right?

I'm not changing Acid Splatter, or anything about the RA for a while anyway. So I guess.

( •_•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■) Deal with it

[SuperPaul]

You guys know what I love when it comes to discussions like these when someone is saying something is overpowered and should be changed?

Facts and evidence. Not some meaningless theorycrafting that is always in the favor of whatever you are arguing.

If something is overpowered then it should be very easy to show evidence in the form of replays showing the objective fact that something is so good that it has to be changed. And I've yet to see any of that.

IMO.

[Tex]

Good point! From now on, we need replay proof to back up the wine sauce. Only problem with this is the constant patching of betas...