SM balance

[Vindicarex]

It sucks: A rant at the end of my stream of playing mostly Grey Knights and getting rekt.

VindicareX: so harddd
VindicareX: lol
VindicareX: GU
VindicareX: do soooo much dmg
VindicareX: for a free unit
lotusvivius: I think u should go sleep man u look tired
VindicareX: my scout and storm troopers suck ballx
VindicareX: im good
VindicareX: lol
RexFTW: is this a mod?
VindicareX: ya ELITE mod
VindicareX: https://www.dawnofwar.info/
Ppphoenix: Why do you play sorc over pc/cl?
VindicareX: hes the coolest
RexFTW: Man this game is so old
Baconpancake123: yet so good :3
Baconpancake123: cant wait for DoW 3
RexFTW: I was like top 5 for the first few weeks
RexFTW: now I dont even remember a thing
lotusvivius: coh2 the vest XD
RexFTW: its very different
RexFTW: VERY
RexFTW: the resources work differently
RexFTW: and there are a lot more mechanics
RexFTW: in DOW
lotusvivius: what u mean on mechaincs
RexFTW: for example
RexFTW: melee units
lotusvivius: what game is easier u think
RexFTW: more impactful abilities
RexFTW: oh and
RexFTW: NO MINES
RexFTW: I mean play DOW 2 now as a starter is probably murder
Aguxyz: this game has mines
RexFTW: this game is like 15 years old
Baconpancake123: its 5 years
Baconpancake123: old
RexFTW: 2009
RexFTW: 7 years
Baconpancake123: on steeam it says
Baconpancake123: release date
Baconpancake123: 2011
Baconpancake123: i think steam is more right
RexFTW: no
RexFTW: that is the expansion
Baconpancake123: oh you mean jsut regualr dow 2 ?
RexFTW: yeah
Baconpancake123: i thout you mean retrobution
lotusvivius: its old game for sire
lotusvivius: just by looking at the graphics lel
RexFTW: but this is a mod
Baconpancake123: grapichs arent that bad
lotusvivius: for now is not bad just u can tell is old
lotusvivius: this game has balance issues?
RexFTW: he is playing a balance mod
VindicareX: definitely
VindicareX: its not bad
VindicareX: but on high level play
VindicareX: much more of a problem in 1v1
Ppphoenix: Get a rhino
VindicareX: as SM
VindicareX: lol.
VindicareX: probs.
RexFTW: eldar has always been OP
Ppphoenix: Instead of purifiers
Adila610: Keepo
Ppphoenix: Purifiers for AV DansGame
x1982x: so u are the number 1 Kappa
x1982x: btw why models are so small in warhammer 4000 first episodes were bigger
ZenoOfC: first episodes?
VindicareX: fuck this
VindicareX: ime done
VindicareX: cant take any more OM
VindicareX: they hurt my head
VindicareX: gotta sleep..
x1982x: btw there is also no hrealing or yes?
VindicareX: ?
VindicareX: healing?
x1982x: y
VindicareX: at base there is
VindicareX: but for SM its really slow
VindicareX: because its % base with diminishing returns
x1982x: ah
VindicareX: so easy to get to 50%
VindicareX: hard after that
VindicareX: makes it so eldar and orks which lsoes models and work better with low hp
VindicareX: have little to no time waiting
VindicareX: IF SM base healing was better
x1982x: got it
VindicareX: I think the game would be wayyy more balanced
VindicareX: since my models are so expensive
VindicareX: I have to wait all day to heal if i wanna save them
x1982x: but i guess do more damage
VindicareX: but not rlly...
VindicareX: a regular DA squad
VindicareX: or big shoota squad
VindicareX: really out classes them
VindicareX: u get the added utility of melee which is cool
VindicareX: but harder to pull off then just pure ranged dps
VindicareX: or rape melee
VindicareX: so all their squads are in between on top of their already low mobility...ugh



EDIT: TL;DR - just go to comments and discuss.

[Lesten]

What's this about diminishing return on base heal? Never heard of it, and wouldn't it effect everyone equally?

"Allied infantry units within a radius of 25 of the HQ take 50% reduced damage, can reinforce and are healed for 1% of their maximum health every second. Heroes are healed for 2.5% of their maximum health."

[Torpid]

Diminished base heal is entirely made up.

The so called "problem" of SM is simple - none of their units are good at soloing shit and unlike IG they do bleed (if not req, time in base healing). Yet they have great synergy with one another. Wipes are still possible (mostly using scouts mind you) and they don't get simple solutions to melee such as stomp or 'ol reliable. So you basically have to micro more with SM to get the same out of them as you would orks, nids or IG.

I still believe the skill-cap for SM is higher than other races though so I don't think this is a balance issue.

[Vindicarex]

Idk it definitely seems like it's really hard for units to heal to 100% HP than than 1% - 50% - I could just be insane though.

It was a late night so I was ramblin' but my point is SM have like everything going wrong for them at all fronts whereas the "good" races (basically orks and eldar) barely have any variation in a good strategy (Hello double shootas and banshees/nades) because their basic upgrades are so godlike.

Like, is a flamer upgrades nearly as good as a big shoota upgrade?

You said it yourself, they all suck alone - but they are suppose to be elite and expensive (ironic right). So you end up spending more and getting less out of them than a banshee or a termagant.

[Torpid]

Idk it definitely seems like it's really hard for units to heal to 100% HP than than 1% - 50% - I could just be insane though.

Well it's far more likely for high hp units to end up alive with a lower percentage of their hp than higher ones. Think about how rare it is to have 5 dire avenger models at ~150hp. That would mean each one had 30hp out of 100. They would take quite a while to heal in that instance but it just happens very rarely.

Tacs at the same percentage (30% of their total hp) would need to have 315 hp with 3 models. Doesn't happen super often, but it does tend to happen more often that they get closer to that without bleeding as typically positioning a model accidentally out of cover won't lead to it dying instantly to ranged fire as space marines. But as eldar it will die. So each model remaining on the squad has 100% hp... Whereas the tac doesn't.

Remember it does % based heal per model. So if one of your models is extra fucked up compared to the rest you're really wasting time sitting in base for it to heal when you could have healed up from 315hp to full in the same time if the damage was shared between the models.

[Vindicarex]

Idk it definitely seems like it's really hard for units to heal to 100% HP than than 1% - 50% - I could just be insane though.

Well it's far more likely for high hp units to end up alive with a lower percentage of their hp than higher ones. Think about how rare it is to have 5 dire avenger models at ~150hp. That would mean each one had 30hp out of 100. They would take quite a while to heal in that instance but it just happens very rarely.

Tacs at the same percentage (30% of their total hp) would need to have 315 hp with 3 models. Doesn't happen super often, but it does tend to happen more often that they get closer to that without bleeding as typically positioning a model accidentally out of cover won't lead to it dying instantly to ranged fire as space marines. But as eldar it will die. So each model remaining on the squad has 100% hp... Whereas the tac doesn't.

Remember it does % based heal per model. So if one of your models is extra fucked up compared to the rest you're really wasting time sitting in base for it to heal when you could have healed up from 315hp to full in the same time if the damage was shared between the models.

And most of the races dont even have to bother with waiting because their economy functions in those several model losses so they usually spend way less time sitting at base compared to space marine armies..

[GuruSkippy]

actually, I do agree with vindi
SMs are lacking.

I thought about changing their heal in base too, I'd like to test some kind of free ability on TSMs and ASMs, activable on base only, wich boost heal rate, and with a high cooldown (I don't want to see it spammed each time you fallback on base).
But we would have to reconsider their insane capping speed then.

And I'd like to see a higher supression level on TSM flamers, and/or a higher melee value on TSM flamer model.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Isn't suffering Chaos or in the lesser extend Grey Knights from the same problem? Because Chaos with the exception of heretics and PM (because his godlike HP regeneration) also have high HP low quantity models squads.

Just saying, I'm a bit off from the game ATM

[Vindicarex]

Isn't suffering Chaos or in the lesser extend Grey Knights from the same problem? Because Chaos with the exception of heretics and PM (because his godlike HP regeneration) also have high HP low quantity models squads.

Just saying, I'm a bit off from the game ATM

You're right, but Grey Knights fall under the SM faction imo. Chaos does have this problem, but happens less since their play style is much more aggressive and therefore you tend to lose a model or two more often than SM.

And, heretics... being much more generally useful than scouts.

[Adeptus Noobus]

How are Heretics more useful than Scouts?

[Vindicarex]

How are Heretics more useful than Scouts?

Basic melee counter without upgrades (melee damage and suppression ability) and worship (and tend to give less exp than the exp heavy scout models). Scouts are pretty much worthless without their upgrades whereas upgrades are quite optional on heretics.
This makes them far more efficient as a cheap, req only unit as compared to scouts where they have to dump at least 25 power into serg. just to make them viable as something other than a capping unit.

Plus, since they drop models, replacing them is super easy and they often march right back to the battle as soon as they reinforce (compared to a scout squad that gets away with 100 hp with 2 moels or something).

[Nurland]

Tic tend to bleed more xp than Scouts based on my experiences.

Also, posting some balance rant from Twitch chat as an OP to a balance discussion topic is not a great idea. It doesn't elaborate the issues enough and doesn't suggest any solutions.

The tone is hardly constructive either.

[Tinibombini]

Basic melee counter without upgrades (melee damage and suppression ability)

In addition to bleeding more than scouts, I am not sure they are really a melee counter after the recent changes. As Caeltos has said, they can be used as a screen to delay incoming melee, but in their vanilla form they are no longer a melee superiority unit. Their status with the AC is debatable, but definitely not overpowering like they used to be.

I don't think there is anything wrong with them but I am just starting out with SM after a loooong time with chaos and I do like scouts better and think that shotgun scouts are more useful than AC tics in early game.

Full disclosure - just 2v2 and 3v3 experience. I blow worse than usual at 1v1.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I agree with Tini - Heretics have become an utility unit that is good for screening, maming and worshipping. If you want some of their old glory restored, you must invest into the Aspiring Champion which costs 25 power.

[Vindicarex]

Did you guys miss my entire point? I'm not saying heretics are OP, but viable right out the gate. Scouts are not useful and not viable right out the gate...
- I'm comparing the viability of one race to another in a crucial stage of the game (early game).

Look at it this way - a simple 1 heretic, 1 CSM can pretty easily force off a slugga boy, hormogaunt, or banshee squad. This requires the races to committ more squads to beating a heretic/csm combo.

Now think about scout squads - 1 Scout, 1 TSM squad basically gets super rekt by a banshee squad and most other melee. The only way you can possibly win, even though you are already 1 squad more than the opponent, is to kite across the map to your other squads while the other squads of eldar or orks or whatever go ahead and do whatever they want depending on the player's strategy.
- Granted if your opponent has no micro and just runs his melee straight at them with no cover - chances are scouts/TSM can do enough damage before they close in. As you can well imagine, though, most players wisely use terrain shot blockers for these deadly melee squads to minimize this "disadvantage."

This forces SM into some really terrible situations with poor map control and frustrating kiting mechanics since; they basically require most if not all of their army strength to beat 1 melee squad.

[Asmon]

Scouts are viable out of the gate. Higher speed and sight radius, they can capture points without ever being targetted (except by stuff such as infiltrated units or snipers). They lack good DPS without upgrades that's all. Their upgrades are very fine.

First message with endless chat is... well, did you really think someone would bother and read it?

SM do indeed heal at a lower rate, because often a squad retreats with one model much less damaged than the others, which therefore stands in base just waiting for its brothers to heal up. High-model-count squads do not suffer from this.

[Vindicarex]

Scouts are viable out of the gate. Higher speed and sight radius, they can capture points without ever being targetted (except by stuff such as infiltrated units or snipers). They lack good DPS without upgrades that's all. Their upgrades are very fine.

First message with endless chat is... well, did you really think someone would bother and read it?

SM do indeed heal at a lower rate, because often a squad retreats with one model much less damaged than the others, which therefore stands in base just waiting for its brothers to heal up. High-model-count squads do not suffer from this.

How exactly does their high speed make them viable? So i can run away all day from whatever they see? Ya game winning plan there...
And their extra sight radius isnt as good as you make it out. Maybe I'm paying enough attention to them at the beginning of the game to notice when a unit immediately enters their sight to run. More than likely I have to micro and back-cap with scouts and notice squads incoming a second or two after they appear (which is more than enough time for scouts to start melting to DAs or big shootas).

So unlike EVERY OTHER SQUAD that can actually put up a fight without upgrades, scouts are forced to be pussies and run away 24/7 unless you feel like dumping 25-55 power in a utility squad...

Let's not forget the added benefit that sluggas, hormas, and banshees gain if their opponent's attention wanders (dead squads) - whereas not noticing an SM squad shooting you for 5 seconds is simply solved by pressing "X" and trying again... Hell, even a double big shoota combo can easily start tearing chunks out of squads' health in seconds (compared to TSM dps which takes longer to achieve that same hurt on the enemy squad). And yes I know that costs power and TSM don't - but SM don't really even have a comparable ranged damage output in t1 as most of their high dps kicks in at T2 (which is why T1 is such a hell for SM and why teching with them is way harder than teching as eldar or orks).

This is a huge disparity between the effort put into micro'ing and the reward you get out of it; and is quite simply why SM have almost always struggled in 1v1.

[Tinibombini]

Did you guys miss my entire point? I'm not saying heretics are OP, but viable right out the gate. Scouts are not useful and not viable right out the gate...
- I'm comparing the viability of one race to another in a crucial stage of the game (early game).

Nice strawman - no one has said that tics are OP, actually the opposite. You are just moving the goalpost now.

You're right, but Grey Knights fall under the SM faction imo. Chaos does have this problem, but happens less since their play style is much more aggressive and therefore you tend to lose a model or two more often than SM.

And, heretics... being much more generally useful than scouts.

Your comment introducing tics says nothing about "being viable" right out the gate.

Adeptus responded directly to this assertion

How are Heretics more useful than Scouts?

You replied

How are Heretics more useful than Scouts?

Basic melee counter without upgrades (melee damage and suppression ability) and worship (and tend to give less exp than the exp heavy scout models). Scouts are pretty much worthless without their upgrades whereas upgrades are quite optional on heretics.
This makes them far more efficient as a cheap, req only unit as compared to scouts where they have to dump at least 25 power into serg. just to make them viable as something other than a capping unit.

Plus, since they drop models, replacing them is super easy and they often march right back to the battle as soon as they reinforce (compared to a scout squad that gets away with 100 hp with 2 moels or something).

The comments responded to some of your claims above. The most glaring is that you claim tics are a melee counter but you diregard this and now merely say:

Look at it this way - a simple 1 heretic, 1 CSM can pretty easily force off a slugga boy, hormogaunt, or banshee squad. This requires the races to committ more squads to beating a heretic/csm combo...

So now we aren't comparing scouts to tics (unupgraded vs. upgraded??? who knows) but rather early compositions I guess.

So i guess we did miss your point since it seems to have changed since we responded to your own statement. Not that your OP was the paragon of clarity to begin with...if you want people to get your point, make it clearly.

[Forestradio]

Super strongly disagree with everything in this thread, imo scouts carry the entire sm race along with asm, dreads, rb/preds, in that order
Scouts are the key to map control and to disruption both of which SM need, they need the map so they don't fall behind in the tech race, and they need disruption so their low dps units (for cost) can pound on the enemy and actually inflict some damage.

Losing models that cost requisition to replace is an advantage now? Actually the balance between high and low model squads is pretty good, one bleeds consistently at a low/medium rate, the other bleeds irregularly but will suffer a shitton of bleed when it actually does, there's nothing wrong there.

So to conclude, SM are fine. Actually they are probably the best balanced race in the game at the moment, which mean they suffer from OPs of other races which should just be nerfed in the first place. And let's not forget, the last big "rework" that an SM unit got was the LRR which turned into a batshit op machine of death with suppressing flamers, and the "op" ven dread which randomly got its cost increased despite being a melee walker in t3, a stage of the game where mobile AV and snares are flying all over the place and tanks dominate the meta anyways.

So:
--Revert the LRR change entirely, it's just completely ridiculously atm
--Do something to the Ven dread so it's not a useless overpriced piece of shit, either ranged weapon upgrades or melee perks like regaining energy on kill or something along those lines

But leave SM alone for the most part, they are fine.

[Tex]

I agree that scouts carry the race hard.

They are so fast, and so deadly. Sure, vanilla they are crap. But the return on investment you get on scouts far outweighs that of most units in the game. Invisible grenades are just so dominant I don't know why they aren't used more. Mind you, Orks are the one race that nullify scouts with their beefy shoota nob so I see where you are coming from in that respect.

[PaperBaG]

For arguments saying that running away wastes time, scouts never "run away" there is always a req point to decap or "running away" just means gets out of range with 6.5 speed and infiltrate then in most cases return to doing what they were going to do unless it involves capping. Melee squads can't touch them either for 15 power you get the best anti-melee counter in t1 minus (high damage, far KB and easiest to use) other than suppression itself. I don't feel scouts are "OP" but they are defiantly the most annoying unit for me to deal with in the entire game, often times you just want to rip their little trolley capes off when spotted.

PS. While we're on this topic, why do scouts have melee resistance and no other low hp per model ranged squads in t1 do?

[Carnevour]

I found that scouts are kinda really durable with a sarge upgrade. You rarely cant get a model off of them since the sarge is always up front and is the one who takes the dmg most of the time sharing it with other 3 models effectively reducing a chance of a model drop.

[Paranoid Kamikaze]

Unupgraded Heretics cannot go off alone like Scouts can due to less speed, no ranged attack and less vision. Unupgraded Heretics are better at supporting their army compared to unupgraded Scouts due to them doing more damage and having more utility. Scouts are meant to go off alone while Heretics are meant to be more centralized and stay with their army. Nothing inherently wrong with either. Just different.

Shotgun blast is only good as a melee deterrent if there is another unit there to do damage. SM units do low damage so they rely on synergy in order to accomplish anything. If a Scout is alone and a melee unit is charging it, the blast is just used to make them back off so Scouts can run away.

Two Scouts have the DPS of a single Tac squad and their constant peppering can add up. Once upgraded with shotguns they each have the DPS of Tacs (in close range) and are much more useful if they can get close up without taking damage. It also makes them better at gen bashing due to the DPS increase.

[Nurland]

Scouts would be too vulnerable without melee resistance. They are only 420 (blaze it) hp outof the gate so they woulddie too easily to melee without it. They are already vulnerable to other ranged squads

[xerrol nanoha]

VindicareX why do you always have only 13 posts? Do you sacrifice all your other posts to the dark gods or something?

[Vindicarex]

VindicareX why do you always have only 13 posts? Do you sacrifice all your other posts to the dark gods or something?

Something like that..

[xerrol nanoha]

So, according to the codex a squad of shotgun scouts has the same DPS of a tactical marine squad (without a weapon). With a sergaent, a scout squad has superior dps to a tactical marine squad with a sergeat (but no weapon). Getting multiple scout squads with shotguns is much more economically viable while getting power for tech, unlike getting tactical squads where you can deny your enemy tech by flaming generators.

It seems like that, combined with the current popularity of spamming cheap starter squads puts tactical marines in a bad position. They're not as good against melee (as shotgun scouts) and they're much less cost efficient (vs shotgun scouts). The only thing you will struggle against is probably heavy infantry where you won't have kraken bolts, but by skipping tacticals you are more likely to afford a devastator or a fast tier 2 transition.

That all said, for tacticals to be more viable in the economy of 1v1, they need to be more cost effective in some way. This could be having their cost reduced to something like 420(70) to be more like chaos space marines and/or having wargear costs reduced. The alternative is that the drop pod tactical callin needs to be cheaper in red (like 100 red) to make it more available in tier 1.

It's worth mentioning that in the current patch, tactical marines cost the same as the OM Strike Squad, but perform worse with no upgrades. The only way it makes sense for both squads to cost the same is if tactical squads with upgrades somehow perform better in tier 2 or tier 3 by comparison. If this is the case then tactical squads should cost less, but the difference should be in wargear costs if it's the wargear that gives tacticals better performance over the OM strike squad.

[Dark Riku]

Stop comparing the DPS of shotgunscouts to that of tacs. Something a lot of people don't seem to know...
Shotgunscouts only have their full dps at range 8!
Bolters have range 38. Shotguns at max range of 26 only do half their damage.
--> https://dawnofwar.info/elite/weapon.php?wpn=sm_shotgun

The Drop Pod global already is 100 red.

[xerrol nanoha]

Stop comparing the DPS of shotgunscouts to that of tacs.

While I apologize for drop-pod resource error, I will unabashedly say that I will not stop comparing the DPS of shotgunscouts to that of tacs because even at maximum range where shotguns do .7x damage (and not .5x damage) shotgun scouts will still be more cost effective in the resource curve compared to tactical marines. Shotgun scouts not doing full damage at maximum range doesn't change or diminish my position in any way.

Try again Riku.

[Torpid]

Tacs underperform, especially in T2. Melee at is just too strong for them to work both in T1 and T2. Granted, it must be acknowledges tacs and asm are more ranged counters whereas devs/scouts are melee counters, but nevertheless tacs I feel should get a buff. In T1 I think the most appropriate buff would simply be a decrease to their upkeep, and a reduction in the cost of the plasma gun/missle launcher in T2. Both are really overpriced atm I feel. 25 for the missle launcher and 25 for the plasma gun would be appropriate imo. The missle launcher just sucks as AV, like it's really really bad and only ever worth the cost atm if the enemy is spamming T2 melee vehicles or gets the very scary khorne dreadnought. Plasma gun is a lot better, but still likely too expensive for what it does I feel. Ultimately this won't make tacs counter their counter - they will still lose to artillery, suppression, melee vehicles and melee squads. It just makes them a little more cost effective at doing the role they are meant to do which atm they are pretty bad at. I think it is indubitable that tacs are the weakest squad in the SM T1 composition - compare them to SS - and they don't scale better in T2 unlike csm.

Scouts are still amazing. One of the highest skill caps for a T1 squad in the game. Perhaps the highest. In terms of micro (all those skill shot nades, timing shit on retreat, changing distance to maximise shotgun damage, lowering hero hp down just enough with tacs/devs to make them think they will survive then popping them with snipers) and positioning but also knowledge to know when and how to get kills and the right upgrade to benefit you not just in t1 but t2 too.