Ordie wrote:Forestradio wrote:revert them to a 2.3 state with the t3 interceptor change, lasrhino nerfs, BC nerfs, and VA nerfs. And yes that means removing operatives from the game.
There were just a series of changes that completely fucked up everything about GK design-wise and balance-wise, if someone wants me to write a big wall of text about it I can...
I would like to hear your argument for it. I am interested in hearing about the meta-game.
You want it? Then it shall be yours.
Let’s go back to 2.3, where the t1 rhino gunner got implemented.
Grey Knight t1 units: IST, ss, purgation, HI rhino, interceptors
Now, the other units all had their roles, people whined about strike squads not scaling into t2 but honestly there was no issue to be had there, git gud with energy restoration and energy drain. Blessed Aegis was in t1 and only 20 power so everyone and their cat bought it and used the BC as a suppression counter by bumrushing suppression teams like mad. As a result, interceptors were a rare sight, usually bought against SM.
T2 had the sniper lasrhino, and the teleporting lightning claw terminator in t2 (halberd, aegis, teleporter BC) which were both kinda op. Also vindicare assassin one hit kills which were bullshit. But there was a lot of creative things to be had in the t2 with heavy bolter rhinos, purifiers, and terminators librarians. Mixing up plasma cannon and melee dreads and whatnot. In a lot of 1v1 games t2 was the key for grey knights where they came back from a hard t1 (nids!) or continued from their t1 pressure (sm).
2.3.2 comes along, same as before except now the rhino has SHI (wtf). Instantly there is no reason to buy it anymore because it causes so much (perfectly justified) rage that it’s just not worth it. Also, the lascannon is still op in t2. But the main thing is that the rhino gets removed from t1 build orders unless you wanted to deal with holyhammer levels of rage from the opposing player.
Rest is mostly the same, aegis went to 25 power in this patch from what I can remember which was a good start but not enough.
And now we get to 2.4 and 2.4.2. We get operatives. Which are batshit overpowered. Probably not as overpowered as the original doom of malantai or vindicare assassin but they’re also in t1 and have a fucking huge impact on the game, to the point where the grey knight vs sm matchup became practically impossible and every single matchup involves countering operatives.
Rhino stayed in t1, went back to HI. Literally never ever purchased anymore, because operatives. Lascannon no longer so op against infantry, which opened up more HB rhino play which was a good thing.
Purgation got moved into t2, req cost increased so it’s way harder to field them. So rip creative t1 build orders, unless you wanted to mess around with 3 IST 1 SS builds or something.
Still never see anything but halberd-aegis-teleporter. Maybe demon hammer if you’re lucky.
T3 becomes so batshit insane it’s not even funny. Shockwave that instagibs lvl 4 stormboyz and terminators with the ability to retreat… yeah nuff said.
Interceptors go to t3 in actually a good design choice, but are rarely seen because who needs anything else when you have retreating terminators?
So here we are in 2.5/2.5.2
BC got his op troll build removed. We’re left with a bunch of obsolete wargears like purified blades that have needed a rework since forever. When was the last time anyone saw canticle or nemesis vortex? That’s right, almost never. Only the weapons are still good and interesting to mess around with.
Operatives are no longer so op, but the rhino goes to t2. Guess what, all the work spent around putting it into t1 is wasted.
IST get a starting cost increased, completely destroying 3 ist builds and going against grey knights being more focused on inquisitorial units.
Purgation go back into t1… but none of the buffs they got when they got moved into t2 get reverted. So yeah, they were made batshit op. Purgation builds are the meta until 2.5.2 when they get nerfed.
Paladins are no longer so insane, losing retreat and shockwave kinda getting nerfed. Ordinary terminators retain their retreat!!!111!!1 Interceptors still almost never seen.
So what are we left with? A faction with a lot of new op tools got them removed which was good, but in the process most opportunities for creativity and innovation got removed. And there are still a couple of useless things or things that have no reason to be in dow2, like the satchel charge. And still no one plays them, and we’re stuck in the same place as ages ago.
I know that I probably missed a lot of information, my memory of those patches isn’t perfect, but personally I think that they were in a way better state in 2.3 and spoke to many players who have the same opinion, even accounting for all the things considered abusive/broken, and could have been designed from that unit roster, that’s it and I don’t have anything else to add.
