Catachan Devils-Why are they good in Close Combat?

[SquidThingy]

I don't mean to rub the IG players the wrong way, but the IG is composed of mere humans. They aren't genetically enhanced, bear no psychic powers, and have no cybernetic enhancements. The only ones who have such gifts are those of high command.

So why does it make sense to have a squad of IG beating up dedicated assault units in the assault?

I get it: IG need a CC unit counter. But why power weapons? Couldn't you just re-work them so they work as a good melee counter as well as not being so incredibly strong in the assault?

Please keep them in their place: a COUNTER melee unit. I mean, SG scouts aren't butchering up the place. Why should these guys get to?

EDIT: I realize I came across like a bit of an ass and I'm really sorry about it.

[Codex]

This is a classic example of what happens when you consider lore and fluff to be primary and superseding balance and game design choices.

Catachans, when IG were introduced, were intended to be a utility unit, but also it was intended to be their counter to melee squads in melee... e.g. ASM and banshees.

Why power weapons? To make them good against stuff like ASM. Why high melee skill? Because most units can't be effective in melee if they're getting knocked back all the time. They don't even have special attacks available to them, so the melee skill is simply a defensive stat.

They ARE a counter melee unit. Do you see people charging catachans into fights willy nilly all the time? They can bleed heavily, they're super vulnerable to AOE, they cost quite a lot to reinforce.

So yeah, SG scouts aren't butchering up the place. But they're completely different units in a completely different composition.

No, I'm not an IG player, but your post has rubbed me up the wrong way. Lore and fluff have no place in this subforum, as you would know if you'd read the balance discussions guidelines.

[Torpid]

Like Codex said, in short - balance.

They aren't a proper melee unit in that they have no melee charge so you can't really do much with them offensively. And come T2 they're terrible vs dedicated melee anyway. Not that I'm even sure why, but they just can't seem to do anywhere enough dps to fend it off.

[Oddnerd]

Catachans aren't good in close combat the way a dedicated melee unit is. They are a counter melee unit - if you just move them into melee they will be horribly inefficient because they are slow, have no charge, and don't have the raw DPS of a dedicated melee unit. However, if your opponent has melee or jump melee troops and you utilize their disruption abilities, fire off a few shotgun bursts before melee happens, then engage the opponent with support, your catachans can take on melee units. They have enough damage and melee skill to hold their own against another melee unit when supported and using their abilities, but no so much that you can just use them as an IG slugga mob.

Overall I like this - in my opinion it is an excellent counter melee design.

EDIT - as others have mentioned, the power melee is to improve their effectiveness against ASM/raptors. It is a 1.3x increase, so a devil is only doing 4 more dps than a slugga, but without the potential for a special. The high melee skill is to stop melee units from knocking them around to the point that they can't get off many hits. They don't have a special themselves, so it is just to prevent them from being knocked about.

[SquidThingy]

This is a classic example of what happens when you consider lore and fluff to be primary and superseding balance and game design choices.

They are supposed to work hand in hand. It's why Nids don't have set up teams and scouts have 3 models.

Yes, my derpy ass now understands why you would keep a high melee skill. But I still believe you shouldn't have them going head to head with melee squads. Use them to be buffers and disrupt and tie down the melee units while your ranged units blast them. There are plenty of ways to keep them an anti melee unit without them actually kicking ass in melee.

[Codex]

Yes, my derpy ass now understands why you would keep a high melee skill. But I still believe you shouldn't have them going head to head with melee squads. Use them to be buffers and disrupt and tie down the melee units while your ranged units blast them. There are plenty of ways to keep them an anti melee unit without them actually kicking ass in melee.

Is that so? This is a relatively expensive squad that can be expensive to reinforce that appears in T1.5. This means that unlike most of the IG blob, they appear closer to the enemy's preponderance of AOE spam in terms of tech than say the Guardsmen Infantry squad. And they also represent a resource burden if they bleed too hard.

Further to this, the IG infantry blob is ranged, and primarily counters ranged through their superior trading through the GM leaders and eventually chimera. After a certain point a lone sentinel isn't going to counter melee by itself, and since the IG composition generally counters ranged and requires melee counters, it makes sense for cats to bring some anti-melee prowess. However, by design they are meant to bleed if improperly controlled, which means they are vulnerable to ranged, and AOE later. If they are vulnerable to ranged damage, if such an expensive squad that is prone to bleed didn't actually beat melee for cost, then it's basically a useless squad. Top players generally shy away from cats anyway because of their downsides and how they interact with the IG economy (i.e. high risk, medium reward vs a straight up T2 via sent and HWT).

Okay, so they can beat melee squads in 1v1, not necessarily even for cost, since they cost a hefty amount of power and a decent amount of requisition. Fantastic. But they don't actually have melee charge, so they lack mobility. They can't chase down shit, which means they're a counterinitiation against melee rather than a melee squad. Sure you can tie up tacs with them, but IG already have a great matchup vs SM. Compare to real melee squads, which rely on melee charge or higher speed or fleet of foot or whatever, this allows them to chase ranged squads down. Cats can't do that, they only have speed 5.

So, I look forward to hearing your suggestions on how to keep them as an anti-melee unit that will be attractive for its cost and place in the IG economy, without kicking ass in melee as well as getting countered by ranged damage and AOE.

An aside:

Unfluffy things that exist in this game:

Tac squads with 3 models out of the gate
Apo leading armies
More to come because I am short on time

[SquidThingy]

Yes, my derpy ass now understands why you would keep a high melee skill. But I still believe you shouldn't have them going head to head with melee squads. Use them to be buffers and disrupt and tie down the melee units while your ranged units blast them. There are plenty of ways to keep them an anti melee unit without them actually kicking ass in melee.

Is that so? This is a relatively expensive squad that can be expensive to reinforce that appears in T1.5. This means that unlike most of the IG blob, they appear closer to the enemy's preponderance of AOE spam in terms of tech than say the Guardsmen Infantry squad. And they also represent a resource burden if they bleed too hard.

Further to this, the IG infantry blob is ranged, and primarily counters ranged through their superior trading through the GM leaders and eventually chimera. After a certain point a lone sentinel isn't going to counter melee by itself, and since the IG composition generally counters ranged and requires melee counters, it makes sense for cats to bring some anti-melee prowess. However, by design they are meant to bleed if improperly controlled, which means they are vulnerable to ranged, and AOE later. If they are vulnerable to ranged damage, if such an expensive squad that is prone to bleed didn't actually beat melee for cost, then it's basically a useless squad. Top players generally shy away from cats anyway because of their downsides and how they interact with the IG economy (i.e. high risk, medium reward vs a straight up T2 via sent and HWT).

Okay, so they can beat melee squads in 1v1, not necessarily even for cost, since they cost a hefty amount of power and a decent amount of requisition. Fantastic. But they don't actually have melee charge, so they lack mobility. They can't chase down shit, which means they're a counterinitiation against melee rather than a melee squad. Sure you can tie up tacs with them, but IG already have a great matchup vs SM. Compare to real melee squads, which rely on melee charge or higher speed or fleet of foot or whatever, this allows them to chase ranged squads down. Cats can't do that, they only have speed 5.

So, I look forward to hearing your suggestions on how to keep them as an anti-melee unit that will be attractive for its cost and place in the IG economy, without kicking ass in melee as well as getting countered by ranged damage and AOE.

An aside:

Unfluffy things that exist in this game:

Tac squads with 3 models out of the gate
Apo leading armies
More to come because I am short on time

Well turns out I was kind of wrong anyway:

Read the following and tell me again about the standard guardsmen.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Catacha ... e_Fighters

They are not normal humans.

I hope there's no hard feelings.

[Codex]

I should apologise, my parents are visiting which results in 1000000x blood pressure, I normally am not so belligerent.

No hard feelings indeed. And I believe this topic has run its course.