Proposal - Make Techmarine Structures Tier 2

[Torpid]

Without devs then any melee force will wreck the SM force.Your experiences far differ from my own then. It certainly isn't as easy an as sure as you make it out to be.

Perhaps not with pubs.

But if you are an actual team that knows what you are doing, is used to playing high level 3v3 and on voice chat. Yeah... Then it becomes really uncounterable at equal skill level even assuming the same prerequisites of the enemy team, assuming no WL of course. But then, this is why it is mandatory for any such team to bring a WL, along with the other traits he has that I mentioned before.

And yes of course you get devs. Unless they went 3x sluggas or something, in which case you obviously don't go beacon. You get devs and shotgun scouts and abuse garrisons if you can.

[Flash]

It never occurred to me to purchase immolator on my LC or Apo. I also play as FS sometimes so I'll get it on her as well. Thanks for the tip.

You're welcome. Git gud.

I hate this response. It adds absolutelty nothing to any discussion except condescension and inspires fury on the part of the recepient. If you think someone is just not microing/macroing playing well enough then you should be explaining how to do it correctly. not just "hur dur you suck learn to play better". I just got done teaching math for the past year, grades 2-12. If any of my junior instructors ever gave that kind of response to a student, I would lose my collective shit at them. For someone learning there is literally nothing worse you could say except maybe "this is so easy, why do you not understand it".

Firstly, you don't need two structures. A beacon alone is incredibly difficult to destroy even without a turret backing it up just courtesy of what it does with its reinforce aura and heal aura.

Without devs then any melee force will wreck the SM force.

Secondly, even with that, ...

Your experiences far differ from my own then. It certainly isn't as easy an as sure as you make it out to be.

I would argue that your experience differs far from most.

[Dark Riku]

I hate this response.

You hate my response to his sarcastic non helpful statement that shouldn't have been made in the first place? Mkay.
If you have been reading the whole thread you would have known that my response was to something particular that Torpid said.

I would argue that your experience differs far from most.

You're probably right since most people are terrible or at least worse than me at this game altering the game experience dramatically.

[Torpid]

I happen to recall a 3v3 I was playing yesterday with you good sir Riku in which my team ended up winning on what seemed mostly to be a T2 beacon.

It was floid, moi and yaay vs ace, you and phoenix on estia.

You got a fast LRR but it couldn't do what it normally would do in pushing us back and holding the contested VP simply because I had a beacon behind a shot blocker. A beacon I only built in T2. It meant suppresses plague marines and set-up teams didn't really force that long ass retreat and walk back to the VP because the beacon was not so far away and of course it is far too dangerous for the LRR to just waltz over and try to burn it down when it is in such an awkward position.

It got so bad in fact that either you or Ace actually used an orbital bombardment on the beacon which killed 1 tac model and the beacon itself. That's how high value a target high level players deemed it to be, even in T2! And immediately I re-built it after. 275 req and 30 power for 500 red? Yes please! I would hope my nuke could inflict a bit more damage than that.

The beacon isn't really much weaker in T2 than it is in T1 to be honest. There's only a tiny timing window that is very hard to access vs a player that knows when it is appropriate to get a T1 beacon in which that T1 beacon is vulnerable in T2.

Getting a beacon in T1 is actually more niche than getting one in T2 because 200 req and 30 power is far more valuable in T1 than in T2. Still there are specific instances based on compositions (for example in this game I had to forgo the beacon to get double snipers to help my chaos ally who was against an SM who went double snipers), match-ups and maps that make it that if you recognise it getting the beacon there and then wins the game. Obviously that can be said about everything. "there is a specific scenario in which getting asm wins the game", but those scenarios are few and far between in comparison to the beacon. That's all that can be said on it.

The only thing remaining is to upload ceaseless replays showing this. unfortunately I don't play too often so that may take a while but I'll make a habit of playing TM in 3v3 so I can do so!

You hate my response to his sarcastic non helpful statement that shouldn't have been made in the first place? Mkay.
If you have been reading the whole thread you would have known that my response was to something particular that Torpid said.

Which was a stupid response, which is why it resulted in a sarcastic response.

Your statement of essentially "counter beacons using immolator" is entirely unhelpful since as Oddnerd was pointing out, most people don't play WL every single game.

I would argue that your experience differs far from most.

You're probably right since most people are terrible or at least worse than me at this game altering the game experience dramatically.

It's not that deep darling. Do calm down. Don't pretend your playing your own meta or have been particularly creative with your playstyle

[Flash]

I hate this response.

You hate my response to his sarcastic non helpful statement that shouldn't have been made in the first place? Mkay.
If you have been reading the whole thread you would have known that my response was to something particular that Torpid said.

I have been reading the whole thread. Hence the posts on the last page. Your initial statement was silly. Only one commander has an immolator. And you were responding to Oddnerd for that. I wouldn't have used sarcasm in my initial response to your immolator comment, but it was justified in it's usage. I have problems with "git gud" as a response and I jumped on you for it. I still stand by it being poor form to stay.

I would argue that your experience differs far from most.

You're probably right since most people are terrible or at least worse than me at this game altering the game experience dramatically.

I'm not contesting your skill. I don't think there is anyone here who would deny that. The condescension is a bit thick though, and the game balance doesn't revolve around only you or your experience. The mod is designed to be balanced around high level play. But there's more people in that than just you.

[Dark Riku]

I happen to recall a 3v3 I was playing yesterday with you good sir Riku in which my team ended up winning on what seemed mostly to be a T2 beacon.

I have not saved that replay, all I know is that the contested VP side didn't seem to do particularly well. The reason as to why I do not know. Bringing in a single luls 3's game as a base for argument isn't exactly a good idea either.

You got a fast LRR but it couldn't do what it normally would do in pushing us back and holding the contested VP simply because I had a beacon behind a shot blocker.

I'd hardly call my LRR a fast one but okay. The reason it couldn't do anything was because of the abundance of AV weapons that seem to be in place at the contested VP side. Again, wasn't paying any attention to that side.

Which was a stupid response, which is why it resulted in a sarcastic response.

Your statement of essentially "counter beacons using immolator" is entirely unhelpful since as Oddnerd was pointing out, most people don't play WL every single game.

Can you two not read or do you guys just want to make me look like a bad guy or something? The response was to you saying that beacon play is only countered by beacon play which is not true in the slightest! Nobody here asked for counterplay to the becon either. And even then it was already touched upon a bit by Atlas. This is a balance thread, not a strategy discussion now is it?

It's not that deep darling. Do calm down. Don't pretend your playing your own meta or have been particularly creative with your playstyle

I'm not claiming anything here! Where do you guys keep getting these ridiculous thought processes from??

I have been reading the whole thread.

Looking at the rest of your post I highly doubt that.

Your initial statement was silly. Only one commander has an immolator.

It was a response to Torpid saying the only thing you can do is have another becon, which is not true, the immolator upgrade is one of many things that you can do.

And you were responding to Oddnerd for that.

Again read the thread, that was a response to Toprid.

I wouldn't have used sarcasm in my initial response to your immolator comment, but it was justified in it's usage. I have problems with "git gud" as a response and I jumped on you for it. I still stand by it being poor form to stay.

You have a problem with my sarcastic response to another sarcastic response? Ever heard of the term hypocrit?

I'm not contesting your skill. I don't think there is anyone here who would deny that. The condescension is a bit thick though, and the game balance doesn't revolve around only you or your experience. The mod is designed to be balanced around high level play. But there's more people in that than just you.

I've never claimed that the game balance has to resolve around my experience. What kind of bullshit claim is this??
I'm sorry that stating facts comes over as condescending to you but it's just the truth. The sky here was blue today, please don't be offended by that.

Way to derail the thread btw Not that this topic deserves much attention imo anyway.

[Oddnerd]

Aside from the immolator, which will roast a turret and mostly toast a beacon, what else is there? Maybe a bile spewer, but that requires at least 10 seconds of continuous firing to bring down a beacon (assuming the codex is correct) and you to get in range in the first place. It seems that once a beacon is down, especially with a turret nearby, the game automatically demands much more skill and effort on the part of the opposing team than it does of the team with the defensive structures.

[Impregnable]

Looking at this post reminds me of an old idea that I had when I first started this game. Since I am posting 2 events every month, at the end of and at the start of a month precisely, I can organize sort of a anti beacon event. One team is consisting of people who will use beacon centered strategies while the other try to win against that without using beacons themselves and Warlock. No restrictions on map, hero selection, player skill level. I would want signed up teams on both sides with availalbe reserves. Also it will be better if both teams are premade team with voice talks and practiced startegies.

I really like to see what can be done agaisnt well played beacon. By having lots and lots of game with beacons, we can build up some database of them. Through it, we will be able to make a collection data that envolves below
1. What kind of counter plays each faction can field vs beacon without using beacons or Warlocks.

2. In which maps and in which places in those maps have op position for beacon?

3. What faction combination is good for keeping or countering becaons without using beacons or Warlock?

It is my belief that if we can hold this event on monthly basis, it would benefit elite mod community as a whole in various way even if these games do not actually provide a solution for this long argument vs beacon.
1. This topic has been a issue for many players in the past and mention of beacon in team games often brought out heated responses. With an event like this people can have a form of entertainment by looking at how high level players grind and form rivalies at each other revolving this beacon issue. Anti beacon vs Pro beacon games involving pride, salt, anger, fury will be entertaining.

2. I believe Elite Mod still need more players. DOW3 is in process of making but lots of fans for dawnofwar series are already scattered to the four winds due to 4 years of no news from relic ever since the fall of THQ. With this event, I believe we can gather up these scattered fans to Elite Mod and also prepare for the upcoming DOW3 by gathering interest in dawnofwar series once more.

3. Even if the whole community reach the consensus that beacon can becountered, thorugh this numeruos replays we form we can build sort of a manual vs beacon play that low skill level players can copy and emulate. With about 30 or more games in a database on vs beacon play widely available in a youtube channel, we will certainly be able to provide a good statistics for new players to learn from.

[Flash]

I basically haven't slept in 4 days. I was being rather dickish. explanation not an excuse. For what it's worth you have my apology.

Riku we're arguing about where the chain of events starts. I was saying from oddnerd sarcasm > your sarcasm > I jump on you. you're starting from toripid > immolator > oddnerd sarcasm > your sarcasm > I jump on you.

The hypocrite part arose out of the afore mentioned arguing about different points in time.

You're correct you never claimed that. I'm not disputing the truth that the sky is blue. I was annoyed by the tone in which you conveyed it and the implication that there is no possible alternative.

[Atlas]

Yeah, I'm going to call it when the discussion starts to get meta about it's own discussion.

Stay on the topic of TM God Tier plz.

[The Licking Boogyman]

I wish actually there would be more Video guides to dow2 Elite because i dont really find many guides :/ say there are many situations like is it 1v1 or a teamgame or what is the mu and say what youre hero/race can do in 1v1 against the other hero/race or how/who they can support other races/heros in teamgames 2v2 etc. Like guide show how to counter/utilize which units and go through different situations in a playlist, so its all summed up. I think it could help many ppl, especially starters and beginners or players that struggle with mu IG vs eldar, PC vs orcs or nids vs sm. Then it would be just learn through practice.

[Adeptus Noobus]

I wish actually there would be more Video guides to dow2 Elite because i dont really find many guides :/ say there are many situations like is it 1v1 or a teamgame or what is the mu and say what youre hero/race can do in 1v1 against the other hero/race or how/who they can support other races/heros in teamgames 2v2 etc. Like guide show how to counter/utilize which units and go through different situations in a playlist, so its all summed up. I think it could help many ppl, especially starters and beginners or players that struggle with mu IG vs eldar, PC vs orcs or nids vs sm. Then it would be just learn through practice.

This has nothing to do with the topic. There are videos here that highlight different units which are linked somewhere in this forum, although I can't remember where. All your other points are covered extremely well in casts by the following Casters:

• www.youtube.com/bbbos
• www.youtube.com/user/DoWReplaysNet
• www.youtube.com/user/RedRupee
• www.youtube.com/user/earthfrenzy (<- Torpid)
• www.youtube.com/adeptusnoobus

Just watch them, listen to what is being said and include that knowledge into your own gameplay.

[The Licking Boogyman]

K den

[Deflaktor]

IMO, turret is completely out of place in T1. The Techmarine does not need it to compete.

The turret has this property of being either extremely potent in narrow lanes or extremely useless in wide areas. I would like to see it lose its suppression in T1 with an optional upgrade in T2 to get it back (with maybe also a slight damage increase) and have its cost reduced.

It is not that I think that the turret is OP that I want it to change but rather I want it to change because it is just unfun. It limits your play style so damn much. There is no real counter to it which makes it really frustrating to play against.

I feel the beacon is just the inverse of the turret. It can be really fun against opponents who blob up at that beacon and then get some satisfying aoe damage in and see all those red numbers plop up. However, against a well organized team this is near impossible. In the hands of the right team and in certain maps it can be so ridiculously OP to the point where you just want to concede. Nevertheless I never feel annoyed when I am up against a beacon.