Scouts...

[TE | NoSkill]

Just a short topic
When i played some games(as sm) last against races with lots of low health shooter squads (orks , IG and EXSPECIALLY Eldar) i always felt i just had my tacs and my hero because my scouts where forced of immediatly or just didn t enough ranged dmg. So what about buffing the scouts melee to maybe 10-12, because i couldn t even ty up ranged squads with them and win, in order to make them more useful. Maybe add also a slight health buff with the squad leader like 10 % or soethin

thx for ur interest

[Ace of Swords]

Default squads are useless in combat roles, they become very good with upgrades though, which means that in the first stages of the game you have to use their sight range to spot what the enemy is doing, cap or harass-kite isolated melee squads.

[Oddnerd]

Your vanilla scouts are not a direct combat unit. In the early engagements you keep them at a distance and let them kite melee heroes and units while your tacs and hero do the damage. Either that or you send them out to cap points.

[Cyris]

Useful to note also is that their dps for cost is the same as a tac. Which is to say 2 scouts put out the same dps as 1 tac squad. The scouts surviability is of course a lot lower, so distraction is vital if they are to participate in ranged combat. Mixing the scouts movespeed and sight range, with your commander/tacs distracting enemies, is vital early game. The "classic" move is to force melee with tac/commander on their ranged units, allowing your scouts to step up and pour in the damage without fear of taking bleed in return.

Countering melee with them is different. You want 2 scouts, one shooting, the other walking away from the melee. When melee turns to attack the closer scout, have it start moving away while the other stops to fire. 6.5 movespeed is a really big deal, but also watch out for melee charge. If the enemy melee gets too close, they will start getting a bonus to movespeed that you can't as easily kite away from, and Emperor help you if they get specials.

[TE | NoSkill]

Well ,but lore wise some chapters had melee scouts + for what do those scouts have a melee resistance?
Also space marines are meant to be preatty versatile;)?

[Adeptus Noobus]

Well ,but lore wise some chapters had melee scouts + for what do those scouts have a melee resistance?
Also space marines are meant to be preatty versatile;)?

In the lore SM would only need Terminators to break everything to smithereens. Now that does not sound balanced...

[TE | NoSkill]

Well i mean so scouts could be more versatile and helping against ranged armies to tie up;)

[Cyris]

Well i mean so scouts could be more versatile and helping against ranged armies to tie up;)

Get the infiltration upgrade and then this actually works rather well. Scouts don't deal much damage in melee, but most ranged squads dont either. Thus trick works especially well on setup teams. The reason you use tacs to tie up is because they don't bleed on the way in.

Scouts are already incredibly versatile. High move speed, vision range, low cost, repair, detection, sniper, disruption, stealth. Pick and choose the combination that counters your opponent, and play the unit differently based on what upgrades you have, and what you are facing.

[TE | NoSkill]

Well i already know , but i thought this would make the game more fun:(

[[EL] A Paige (of AT)]

Well i already know , but i thought this would make the game more fun:(

Try playing a few games with fully upgraded scouts.
Shotguns preferably. They are actually powerful and should never be underestimated. I can link you to some games if you wish.

[TE | NoSkill]

But what s with the ppl , who want to charge in glorious melee like me?
would it be such a big change to buff scouts in melee?

[Psycho]

But what s with the ppl , who want to charge in glorious melee like me?

You're still free to do that, but don't think it'll work.

[Tinibombini]

But what s with the ppl , who want to charge in glorious melee like me?
would it be such a big change to buff scouts in melee?

Please read this: https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2099

[TE | NoSkill]

But what s with the ppl , who want to charge in glorious melee like me?
would it be such a big change to buff scouts in melee?

Please read this: https://www.dawnofwar.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2099

Why do u show me this ?
I thought i would ve had me thought s clear and understandable

[Kvn]

I think you may be looking at it the wrong way. Instead of asking why Scouts can't fight in melee, perhaps ask why they would need to. This mod is predominantly a balance mod, and having a highly mobile squad with huge hp regen, infiltration, disruption, and grenades also be a melee superiority unit would be fairly overpowered. They already shred units with their high burst damage from shotguns, so giving them additional punch in CC isn't needed.

If you're asking from a lore perspective, there are plenty of lore-friendly additions that would break the game in a similar manner. For example, the Dire Sword wielded by the Dire Avenger Exarch can rip out a target's soul in the lore, essentially one-shotting them. That isn't implemented for good reason.

[Paranoid Kamikaze]

2 Scouts = 1 Tac dps
1 Scout with Shotgun = 1 Tac dps
1 Scout with Shotgun+Sarge = T2 Tac dps
2 Scouts with Shotguns = 2 Tac dps
Not that Tac dps is anything special

Vanilla: Good sight and speed. Low dps in ranged and melee. Use for capping and occasionally adding tiny amounts of dps to a fight.

Shotguns: Good against melee due to blast and is also good against generators due to the dps increase. Upgrading two at once can lead to a timing push by itself.

Sarge: Detection and a grenade that's useful against buildings and as a melee deterrent. Useful with Shotguns as the Sarge will also equip one. Adds some survivability as well, but not really a reason to get it for that alone considering the price.

Infiltration: Good for Scouting and stealth capping. Increases health regen to the point where you can keep them on the field forever unless forced off.

Snipers: Good for long range burst damage but not high dps. Setup time makes them vulnerable to being targeted so have to keep them back.

By the way, what commander were you playing? Makes a HUGE difference in how you use your army.

With FC you want to have him spearhead your army and then move up your Scouts behind him so enemy units automatically target the tank rather than the squishy Scouts.

With TM or Apo you would use them much less aggressively and would either keep them back as vanilla or get snipers. Shotguns if you know a melee unit will be coming to you.

[TE | NoSkill]

But the surviveablility of the scouts is fairly low when focused and to buff them in melee would mean that some heavy focused ranged builds would consider this 2-times to do so like triple dire avengers or lg with tripple guardsmen or more.
I mean space marines are good for melee in early game and against the right squads but not op and melee focused like chaos.
And scouts would be able to wipe finally something in retreat+ i find it a bit weird that spce marine scouts, who have infact most of their implants , are only as good in melee like stormtroopers, despite the melee resistance

Edit: Right now im more FC focused but im used to apo too

[Tinibombini]

And scouts would be able to wipe finally something in retreat+ i find it a bit weird that spce marine scouts, who have infact most of their implants , are only as good in melee like stormtroopers, despite the melee resistance

It has been said time and again, balance is not based on lore. The fact that that scouts have most of their implants in lore is fairly irrelevant in making balance decisions about scout melee damage.

[Kvn]

But the surviveablility of the scouts is fairly low when focused and to buff them in melee would mean that some heavy focused ranged builds would consider this 2-times to do so like triple dire avengers or lg with tripple guardsmen or more.
I mean space marines are good for melee in early game and against the right squads but not op and melee focused like chaos.
And scouts would be able to wipe finally something in retreat+ i find it a bit weird that spce marine scouts, who have infact most of their implants , are only as good in melee like stormtroopers, despite the melee resistance

Edit: Right now im more FC focused but im used to apo too

Scouts do wipe retreating units. Their grenades are huge retreat killers when mixed with high movespeed and infiltration.

As for their durability, thats kind of the point. They're skirmishers who can get huge hp regen. Not stand-up battlers.

[TE | NoSkill]

Scouts do wipe retreating units. Their grenades are huge retreat killers

Well, that may be true but: -u have to be skilled in doing so
- it s just annoying not to wipe 30 hp and below models with normal melee
I dont want scout s to be melee combat monsters but they should at least be able to force off a primarly ranged unit
It could be implemented as an upgrade like the shotguns or the sniperrifle.
So the plyer would ve to choose how to play his scouts for soft melee, anti melee or sniper:)

[TE | NoSkill]

This could be preatty helpful against primarly ranged factions

[Tinibombini]

I dont want scout s to be melee combat monsters but they should at least be able to force off a primarly ranged unit

Why? Scouts are a ranged unit - why should they be able to force of another ranged unit in melee?

Also, Tacs can force off ranged units in melee.

ASM are designed to take out ranged units and suppression teams in melee.

[Dark Riku]

Why is it though that scouts lose in melee against other ranged units as well?

Certain models/squads melee DPS
Scout model: 4 (full squad: 12, with sarge: 18)
GM model: 2 (full squad: 12, with sarge: 20)
DA model: 6.67 (full squad: 33,35, with wl: 57,64)
Shoota model: 8 (full squad: 40, with nob: 63.08)

Now also look up the setupteams' melee dps. You'll find out that scouts even lose to those in melee :/

1 Scout with Shotgun = 1 Tac dps

Only at the short range of 8 or below.

[Paranoid Kamikaze]

But the surviveablility of the scouts is fairly low when focused and to buff them in melee would mean that some heavy focused ranged builds would consider this 2-times to do so like triple dire avengers or lg with tripple guardsmen or more.
I mean space marines are good for melee in early game and against the right squads but not op and melee focused like chaos.
And scouts would be able to wipe finally something in retreat+ i find it a bit weird that spce marine scouts, who have infact most of their implants , are only as good in melee like stormtroopers, despite the melee resistance

Edit: Right now im more FC focused but im used to apo too

They're just meant to tie up units in melee, not beat them. Having good melee and a cheap upgrade for infiltration would be kinda overpowered

If you want to survive, get infiltration.
If you want to do damage, get shotguns.
If you want to survive and do damage, get both.

If you're having trouble against ranged squad spam in T1 get a Dev. Whirlwind and Plasma Dev in T2.

Want a rape melee unit? ASM Vanguard or Assault Terminators (w/Claws). Buff them with Banner, For The Emperor and Power Sword Battle Cry. Destroys any unit in the game.

Wouldn't mind a slightly higher melee just so they would do better against Guardsmen in T1.

[Tinibombini]

Why is it though that scouts lose in melee against other ranged units as well?

Why not? Should all these ranged units have the same melee dps so it is equal? Maybe we can get back to buffing all the commanders side arms as well

Further, can squads like GM actually get all their units into melee or do they just sort of mill around and not attack besides like 4 of them (I actually don't know)? That would make their effective melee damage lower than their theoretical melee damage.

1 Scout with Shotgun = 1 Tac dps

Only at the short range of 8 or below.

Well OP is talking about buffing melee damage. If you are close enough for melee, you are close enough for shotguns to do full damage.

[Ace of Swords]

Well OP is talking about buffing melee damage. If you are close enough for melee, you are close enough for shotguns to do full damage.

Doesn't work like that, the time span at range 8 or less and melee is like 2-3 seconds, which means they will do tact dps for like 2 seconds before either having to run or get tied up.

[Tinibombini]

Well OP is talking about buffing melee damage. If you are close enough for melee, you are close enough for shotguns to do full damage.

Doesn't work like that, the time span at range 8 or less and melee is like 2-3 seconds, which means they will do tact dps for like 2 seconds before either having to run or get tied up.

OP is talking about buffing melee so that scouts can hurt ranged units in melee. I think you are talking about another melee squad (not sure)? Plus there is shotgun blast for a brief reprieve.

I also forgot that scouts have melee resist - doesn't that mean they will actually do more melee damage than GM in melee combat?

[Ace of Swords]

Well OP is talking about buffing melee damage. If you are close enough for melee, you are close enough for shotguns to do full damage.

Doesn't work like that, the time span at range 8 or less and melee is like 2-3 seconds, which means they will do tact dps for like 2 seconds before either having to run or get tied up.

OP is talking about buffing melee so that scouts can hurt ranged units in melee. I think you are talking about another melee squad (not sure)? Plus there is shotgun blast for a brief reprieve.

I also forgot that scouts have melee resist - doesn't that mean they will actually do more melee damage than GM in melee combat?

I'm talking about this scouts do tacts dps nonsense, they don't and in order to achieve it you need to expose them greatly.

[Dark Riku]

Why not? Should all these ranged units have the same melee dps so it is equal?

No, but they have the lowest melee DPS of them all and even lose to setupteams in melee :/

Further, can squads like GM actually get all their units into melee or do they just sort of mill around and not attack besides like 4 of them (I actually don't know)? That would make their effective melee damage lower than their theoretical melee damage.

Depends how big the target is. heroes and the likes they won't be able to wrap around. 3 models or more in a unit and they should all be able to get their melee attacks in.

I also forgot that scouts have melee resist - doesn't that mean they will actually do more melee damage than GM in melee combat?

No, scout lose to GM in melee, something I find hilarious both fluff and balance wise.

[Tinibombini]

I also forgot that scouts have melee resist - doesn't that mean they will actually do more melee damage than GM in melee combat?

No, scout lose to GM in melee, something I find hilarious both fluff and balance wise.[/quote]

This is a minor point, i don't dispute that they are losing. However, it's because GM have more health than scouts - 420 vs. 600 for basic squads. (b/c they are actually doing less melee damage right? - 40% melee resist means they are doing 12 melee damage for the full GM squad with sarge compared to scouts doing 18).

I meant to phrase that as a question more than a statement. sorry.