Nids vs SM

[Cyris]

6) It's not really 600 health though since they are small which means units are only 80% likely to hit them so it's effectively 720hp

Public service announcement:

Just in case this confuses newer players, Torpid is being an obnoxious pedant here. Spore Mines are indeed small, which means most ranged fire has only an 80% chance to hit them, so 720 EHP (effective hp)!

This is true, but it's misleading in a vacuum. You might compare Spores to DA (5 models at 120 health) and conclude that Spores are harder to kill then them, because DA's have 600 EHP and the small Spores have 720 EHP! Nope, DA are also small and have the same EHP, as is nearly every infantry in the game. This is a useful thing to know, but it's important to also know that Spores have no special resistance to ranged fire above and beyond "normal" infantry.

Units that break these rules are important to know about. Sizes besides small change hit chances of various ranged weapon families. Notable unit sizes are Rippers at Tiny, HT and Warriors at Medium and Tyrant Guard at Large. Each of these conveys some unique hit probabilities, but small is by far the most common size for infantry.

[Torpid]

Public service announcement:

Just in case this confuses newer players, Torpid is being an obnoxious pedant here. Spore Mines are indeed small, which means most ranged fire has only an 80% chance to hit them, so 720 EHP (effective hp)!

This is true, but it's misleading in a vacuum. You might compare Spores to DA (5 models at 120 health) and conclude that Spores are harder to kill then them, because DA's have 600 EHP and the small Spores have 720 EHP! Nope, DA are also small and have the same EHP, as is nearly every infantry in the game. This is a useful thing to know, but it's important to also know that Spores have no special resistance to ranged fire above and beyond "normal" infantry.

Units that break these rules are important to know about. Sizes besides small change hit chances of various ranged weapon families. Notable unit sizes are Rippers at Tiny, HT and Warriors at Medium and Tyrant Guard at Large. Each of these conveys some unique hit probabilities, but small is by far the most common size for infantry.

Tbh I actually thought spore mines were tiny, they seem that difficult to kill with ranged fire in t1...

I then checked and saw they weren't. They were small. And I assumed that was abnormal and nearly everything was medium...

The more you know. lmao.

[Torpid]

Thank you guys for answers.
Rending talons are my first power purchase in this MU, I don't even want to try to play without them . I were thinking of using my horma\tguard as counter initiation, but i'm really used to my horma side-capping everything on the map. And i always lose my TG once i lose an engagement and forced to back-off (I really dislike TG even if everybody says it's overpowered, for me TG is just a melee walker w/o melee resistance or vehicle armor). I'll try to play more defensively vs orcs.
Still don't know about zoan, I think stormz can snipe it, even if HT guarding it. Funny thing is - I got no problem with other jump troops, but I am scared of stormboyz.

6- No matter how many times I try to make them work, melee Ravs are just not a thing. Heck, they even do more melee damage with the Devourer upgrade!

The only time i use melee ravs is to fight SM with devastators. And it's only to save 15 power, not because they perform better that way. Devourers are just to damn good in any situation.

Hope it's okay to derail a thread a bit from NIDS vs SM topic.

HT shits all over orks in my experience. If they go lootas I feel like it's a free win.

A MASSIVE mistake you are making is rushing rending talons which leaves you very vulnerable to loota+shoota upgrade builds... that's why you are losing the ranged fights. Termagants thrash shootas cost-cost in ranged combat, the only advantage shootas get is a little extra range, but that should very rarely benefit them since you have the speed advantage and better melee units. Instead rush ravs!

So, default horms, term, term, spore mine (I'd get three of them vs warboss personally), ravs asap, devourers asap, toxin sacs, now you might be able to get a second hormagaunt if you haven't been bleeding a lot and that is ideal, but sometimes you will have spent all spare req on gens. Then two toxin sac upgrades on the terms. Then adrenals on horms. Then rending talons. Final purchase. You really shouldn't need them too much. The basic synapse of the HT is most important alongside his armour rather than the melee weapon. Carapace armour should be purchased after devourers and before gaunt upgrades if they go loota, get improved synapse after term upgrades, before horm upgrades typically.

Stormboys are definitely way scarier than shitty lootas. Personally as ork I go either 2x shoota, storms, painboy as WB or 2x slugga, shoota, storm, painboy as KN/Mek. Shootas suck vs nids especially in T2 however you need something to kill spore mines/the HT in T1 and lootas are just crap with both the HT and the ravs going around.

You should NEVER leave T1 without getting devourers on your ravs. They are just way too cost effective an upgrade. I know your ravs won't get a t2 hp boost from melee synapse then, but comeon, the devourers bleed your foes endlessly. They are way more important.

[Cyris]

I then checked and saw they weren't. They were small. And I assumed that was abnormal and nearly everything was medium...

Yeah, I've been tripped up by that too. Small is standard and medium is one of the least common sizes - counter intuitive but true. I hope you take it as the compliment it is meant as, that I assumed you were being clever and not making a mistake

WB vs HT notes

I had some good rounds against Tex recently in this match up, and totally agree with the rundown. Charge if you see Lootas, Rending is good but best to wait for Storms and combo with Toxin Sacs. Ravs are essential for bursting the WB down. Warriors seem skippable unless I needed BS to counter garrison - the WB, sluggas and storms plus UYC does too much work on them. The Spores I haven't mixed in yet, but will be messing around with in the future. Improved synapse is amazing if you don't need the charge, it also lets you conserve Energy for Talons. If you end up not needing Talons, I highly recommend warp field to go with the synapse, though get it only when the HT is on field with low HP, and you have time to finish the upgrade. The big spike of bonus health undoes the focus fire that got him that low, and can help you take a lot of map.

A 2nd horma seems like it would push T2 too far back. I'm assuming only add it in if you see them also going heavy in T1? When do you add that guy and what do you focus him on? The aformentioned sluggas storms and WB + globas make the horma feel very secondary in this matchup. I often use it only to cap and the occasional flank after HT is tying things up and some enemy melee has been forced off.

[fe_]

Thanks a lot for advices, Torpid, i'll try to implement them!

A MASSIVE mistake you are making is rushing rending talons which leaves you very vulnerable to loota+shoota upgrade builds... that's why you are losing the ranged fights. Termagants thrash shootas cost-cost in ranged combat, the only advantage shootas get is a little extra range, but that should very rarely benefit them since you have the speed advantage and better melee units. Instead rush ravs!

So, default horms, term, term, spore mine (I'd get three of them vs warboss personally), ravs asap, devourers asap, toxin sacs, now you might be able to get a second hormagaunt if you haven't been bleeding a lot and that is ideal.

I usually rush talons vs banshees too. Crippling poison do not work well on them, they are usually already leaping then crippling animation goes off.

For me getting toxin sacs before 1.5 is so tempting, unless i'm playing non-HT hero ofc. But i can work around that.

Why horma vs orcs? Sluggas just demolish them on flanks in my experience, and major engagements are so fast and brutal I can't even use them efficiently as counter-charging unit. I think that's one of my main problems in this MU - I am losing flanks. It' ever sluggas or warboss on side capping duty, and my horma or one squad of terma can't fight them at all.

And yes, I am as well always happy to see SUT in any matchup. Strong melee/jump troops/disruption are much scarier for me.

[Torpid]

I had some good rounds against Tex recently in this match up, and totally agree with the rundown. Charge if you see Lootas, Rending is good but best to wait for Storms and combo with Toxin Sacs. Ravs are essential for bursting the WB down. Warriors seem skippable unless I needed BS to counter garrison - the WB, sluggas and storms plus UYC does too much work on them. The Spores I haven't mixed in yet, but will be messing around with in the future. Improved synapse is amazing if you don't need the charge, it also lets you conserve Energy for Talons. If you end up not needing Talons, I highly recommend warp field to go with the synapse, though get it only when the HT is on field with low HP, and you have time to finish the upgrade. The big spike of bonus health undoes the focus fire that got him that low, and can help you take a lot of map.

A 2nd horma seems like it would push T2 too far back. I'm assuming only add it in if you see them also going heavy in T1? When do you add that guy and what do you focus him on? The aformentioned sluggas storms and WB + globas make the horma feel very secondary in this matchup. I often use it only to cap and the occasional flank after HT is tying things up and some enemy melee has been forced off.

Tbh if you go improved synapse that means you don't need to deal with suppression and that usually means they are going extra melee (usually jump squads). In which case you are going to want the talons, especially vs orks, perhaps not SM, but orks for sure. The knockback is key. Also, pro tip to OWN orks in melee fights - burrow your ravs behind them when they are just about to get into melee and focus fire their melee squads with EVERYTHING. Your horms will leap in, engage them in melee on retreat with ravs, if they don't retreat instantly all this melee plus the ranged fire of terms will mean the squad gets wiped by horms as soon as they can hit retreat. It's amazing as even if they hit retreat after being knocked forward horms always get a few models due to their speed. And it's not like the ork can do much - they have to go into melee or lose to the rav/term t1 blob anyway. But vs orks a fully upgraded HT in T1 can work. Sometimes that MU has really big t1s. I mean I've gone shoota, shoota, storms, painboy a lot vs nids and fully upgraded all my t1 units and got hero wargear so...

Warriors are really bad unless they go for a triple shoota blob or something, but even then vs the WB I would just avoid that. He's way too hard to kill without the additional ranged dps of the ravs. Also KN with his knife fucks up the BSWB. And then the mek can tele into it alongside storms which get two jumps due to battery pack, just no. Just no. Go ravs, you are a HT, you do not need synapse. This is why HT is awesome.

Add it if you can do so without delaying your tech, basically. If you don't bleed much in the first few engagements you should be able to afford it and with it only being 210 and 8 pop it's so cheap once you get over the sunk costs. You just use that one to cap while you use the initial one with AG to fight, primarily as counter-initiation vs stormboys since after all you have the far better ranged army.

P.S I appreciate that you don't believe I talk shit most of the time hence why you thought I was just being 'pedantic' in that instance. Dow is a funny game though isn't it? Where medium units are so rare and small is average, and in addition therefore how most weapons only have 80% accuracy vs nearly all units. It's bizarre.

[Torpid]

Thanks a lot for advices, Torpid, i'll try to implement them!

I usually rush talons vs banshees too. Crippling poison do not work well on them, they are usually already leaping then crippling animation goes off.

For me getting toxin sacs before 1.5 is so tempting, unless i'm playing non-HT hero ofc. But i can work around that.

Why horma vs orcs? Sluggas just demolish them on flanks in my experience, and major engagements are so fast and brutal I can't even use them efficiently as counter-charging unit. I think that's one of my main problems in this MU - I am losing flanks. It' ever sluggas or warboss on side capping duty, and my horma or one squad of terma can't fight them at all.

And yes, I am as well always happy to see SUT in any matchup. Strong melee/jump troops/disruption are much scarier for me.

Well in terms of solo fights termagants are your melee counter, hormagaunts are you ranged counter. But on the bigger scale fights it isn't so simple and horms generally do best vs melee. this is because the squishy ork melee will be trying to kill your ranged stuff, while it does so it isn't fighting the horms which while fragile and weak to melee specials (which is why they can't solo melee) they have the best melee dps for their pop of any default melee squad. They're really good for their price.

What you describe though is a legitimate problem for nids - dealing with sidecapping melee units. Especially in this MU because the flamers on sluggas own termagants so bad that there is literally 0 room for error when microing away from sluggas. That's why I myself as ork always go 2x slugga. I need one in the big fights as I don't want to fight at ranged vs nids but a slugga is better as a capping unit than a shoota.

Anyway, to deal with this it's simply a matter of positioning. As the nid you have the superior ranged force and the superior speed. This means that you should be able to completely control the movement of your opponent and make him very predictable. His sluggas can't go near your ravs w/ devourers which are speed 6.5. Double terms easily forces off a slugga squad and you just need to get close hit 1 crippling poison and it HAS to retreat. Sluggas are speed 5. Termagants are speed 6. Alternatively get talons on your HT or the warp field and send him over - they can't solo him. This however is not ideal because you really want your HT providing his synapse in the main fights. But basically you can afford to move 2 terms and your ravs over to one side of the map to force off a slugga when the ork cannot do the same with his shootas to force off your side-capping horms. This is due to tyranids on a whole being a way faster race than orks. Those sluggas giving you trouble are due to you not having perfected macro-movement and positioning in 1v1 yet. It might be beneficial to try and find tyranid replays of mine so you can try and get more of a feel for that positioning. It gets to a point where as nids I know exactly where my foe will go because I totally can control it with my army. But that's something you can't really 'teach' with words. Just gotta have experience doing it.

Concerning wargear and/or upgrade purchases before t1.5 this is nearly universally a bad habit. The only real exception is if you can get HUGE map control from the purchase or HUGE bleed/a wipe. So for example it might be worth getting purification vials early if you think you can wipe a termagant in a building with it. Or getting the big shoota on the mekboy as your first upgrade vs eldar because that thing bleeds DA and shees to no end right away and in the early game it is just brutally punishing. But in this MU talons/crippling poison must come after t1.5.

I think your problem is perhaps trying to win every engagement. Learn to simply not take the engagements not in your favour. Abuse your speed as nids and your low upkeep. If both players are equal map in the early game the tyranid has the advantage due to lower upkeep AND you can always run away and out-maneuver your foe due to higher speed. (can you see why nids have classically always been viewed as OP? [their early game is mental, but now in elite their late game is not so bad thankfully]). You must get out of the bad habit of buying these upgrades to 'benefit' you in winning a single engagement. Yes, they may, but what does it get you, 2 req points captured and 2 slugga boy models killed? Then a loota or storms come out and you have to run away and lose the 2 req points and more. If you run away keep ratting with your shitty unupgraded squads let him cap the 2 req points while you go elsewhere and cap 2 there. When his loota/storm comes out you have ravs and actually by the time the next fight occurs you probably have either talons or a gaunt upgrade and assuming equal skill you should win it as the HT. You won't get 2 models from this, if they commit you'll get lots of models and maybe a squad wipe and then you'll catch like 2-3 points before they get back out. If they don't commit you don't need to retreat any squads (but they do because remember orks are slower than nids so they can't just casually back-pedal away from you forever like you can vs the orks) so you can cap about 3-5points ( depending on how close to your base the engagement happened, closer it was, obviously the more points you gain) AND de-cap 2 or so enemy points too before the next fight. Then you drop a brood nest and LOL, good luck ork pushing that off. Meanwhile the whole time you bleed less and have less upkeep.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions so fast haha. I would much rather see raptors or asm than I would a havoc or devs. Those jump squads are much easier to deal with. Less models = less aoe from specials. And those races just have shitty melee support in T1 which really is where nids suck vs melee. Come T2 nids are way better. AG horms w/ melee synapse are basically t2 shees without specials, except they are 8 pop... And genes are genes. Anyway, baiting ASM nearly get soloed by AG horms, as do raptors, with a little focus fire from terms or support melee from ravs they will easily beat them. Perhaps the scariest SM build is an FC/apo going devs+asm because all the microing about to kill the asm often means you end up not having forced off the devs. The ASM run away and then the devs shut down your army and you lose the fight. But generally a jump squad on its own is easy to deal with. devs+asm is heavy so you need a BSWB AND devourer ravs to deal with that and probably a charging HT too.

[Atlas]

Wait... Ravs are speed 6.5?

[Crewfinity]

Wait... Ravs are speed 6.5?

only until they get the upgrade. then they're speed 7.5

scouts eat your heart out.
(nids OP)

[Torpid]

Wait... Ravs are speed 6.5?

Correct and speed 7.5 with the improved muscle coil.

Certainly more of a snake than a slug!

They were speed 7.5 by default in retail and their devourers did 40dps each...

[Adeptus Noobus]

For the love of (insert whatever you believe in here) Torpid, just make videos again.
They were good. You know it, we know it.

[fe_]

Thank you for your effort, Torpid. I feel like I learned more from this topic than from 100 games. This can definitely be used as a guide for new tyranid players.

[Torpid]

Thank you for your effort, Torpid. I feel like I learned more from this topic than from 100 games. This can definitely be used as a guide for new tyranid players.

No problem. I hope the knowledge serves you well on and that you go on to find success with it. Good luck.