Land Raider Phobos

[Arbit]

I always assumed that chaos didn't get a mobile reinforce point because of tics - you can doomblast all day if you have a reinforcement point nearby (and the req. income, obv).

Whether that's a valid concern or not, I dunno.

[Ace of Swords]

I always assumed that chaos didn't get a mobile reinforce point because of tics - you can doomblast all day if you have a reinforcement point nearby (and the req. income, obv).

Whether that's a valid concern or not, I dunno.

It is, tics with circle of summoning are unstoppable, that's one of the combinations to force anything to retreat, but it's also red expensive as it should.

[dance commander]

Nonsense, you hardly see tics in melee starting t2, between more effective counters, repairs worship and capping, let alone doomblast being a concern for anyone by the time a phobos hits the field.

[Torpid]

It doesn't need to reinforce...

[Asmon]

Please, do explain why? Most races can buy a reinforce aura for less than half the price or even use some form of global to either reinforce or call in more units. Chaos are in the unique situation of having horrible reinforcement options and having no call-ins until terminators. And just for the record, I'm not saying that chaos globals are weak at all. I'm just saying that reinforcement is a unique weakness they possess.

Anyway about your idea for an ability to reinforce for 20s. What would be the cooldown on this ability? Would you call it something like "open wide the maw" ?

As you say reinforcement is the unique weakness T3 Chaos has. Take it out and it's pretty much gg. First, by keeping tics on the field, and we do know they can be an engagement winner unit through the use of globals (ToN, Blood Sacrifice, Bloodlust, Daemonic Summoning) for every Chaos hero, even more for the Sorcerer.

Second, PM. Let these guys reinforce at will and you'll be in trouble, especially with 2 squads of them. Then BL (fight, lose models, phase, reinforce) though we could deny reinforcing while phasing out.

Also, I don't want Terminators to reinforce on the field. Hence an ability that does not last too long (still it is long enough to get one Terminator model). That's personal, I hate them :>

Cooldown: at least 90s.

About the name, Open wide the maw sounds good =) or Will of the dark gods, Rape mod engaged, whatever.

[Forestradio]

Asmon, both of the other land raiders allow SM termies to reinforce on the field.
Why not chaos ones, who are weaker?
Not sure why you hate termies, seer council appropriately buffed with guide/fortune etc will wreck the ranged variants and give LC termies a run for their money

[Asmon]

If you wanna reinforce on the field as chaos you should play PC and build a well-secured shrine. Otherwise, you warp out your units to the HQ or boost their speed and back off.

The easy solution: I stand there and reinforce with my 2000hp phobos is not the way of Chaos as I want it to be.

Correction: I hate chaos terminators. And don't talk about SC aka the worst wizards of the east side of the warp.

[Torpid]

Because that isn't the role of the unit! The phobos is not a buffbot, nor is it a tanky super unit, nor is an uber nigh-impossible-to-kill baneblade, it's a long ranged heavy weapon platform useful at holding down certain positions of the map and providing great fire support to your main army, effective against all foes, while not taking any return damage, isn't that enough of a buff to the army, without letting it constantly allow them to reinforce?

If this open wide the maw ability were to be implemented how long would the active reinforcement last for? 15 seconds? More?

[Dark Riku]

Asmon, both of the other land raiders allow SM termies to reinforce on the field.
Why not chaos ones, who are weaker?
....

Kinda what Torpid said.
And Chaos generally hits way harder than their SM counterparts.

[Forestradio]

Asmon, both of the other land raiders allow SM termies to reinforce on the field.
Why not chaos ones, who are weaker?
....

Kinda what Torpid said.
And Chaos generally hits way harder than their SM counterparts.

If we're speaking in terms of terminators, they hit equally hard.
Are you telling me that a LRR won't wreck blobs of units in the same capacity the Phobos will wreck vehicles?

I'm an SM player myself, but see no reason why Chaos shouldn't be the only faction without mobile on the field reinforcement.

[Orkfaeller]

Asmon, both of the other land raiders allow SM termies to reinforce on the field.
Why not chaos ones, who are weaker?
....

Kinda what Torpid said.
And Chaos generally hits way harder than their SM counterparts.

If we're speaking in terms of terminators, they hit equally hard.

Maybe its just me, but I have alot more respect of the Autocannon than the Assaultcannon.

[Dark Riku]

If we're speaking in terms of terminators, they hit equally hard.

Only if you are talking about the default ranged ones. Or the LC versions.
But you can't just disregard all the other units and options. Like the better anti-all ranged weapon they have. Or the fact that all heroes have access to the LC ones.

Are you telling me that a LRR won't wreck blobs of units in the same capacity the Phobos will wreck vehicles?

Don't really get where this is coming from but; only if the blob of infantry gets really close and isn't in melee combat with the LRR or other units. But that's not the point.
Phobos still hits "harder" because it is long range and AV.

I'm an SM player myself, but see no reason why Chaos shouldn't be the only faction without mobile on the field reinforcement.

Because that would make them way too good with how the whole race works.

[Forestradio]

Maybe its just me, but I have alot more respect of the Autocannon than the Assaultcannon.

we're not comparing the assault cannon or the autocannon here. we're also not comparing SM and Chaos termies.

It's about whether or not the Phobos gets some kind of support ability for the rest of the Chaos army. That's why the topic is "Land Raider Phobos"

[Tex]

Can somebody tell me what the key combination here is that we are afraid of in terms of chaos being too strong with a reinforcement point?

Is it bloodletters, TCSM, or PM's? Without a healing aura on the LRP, there are no other units to push this over the top imo. LRP already does what PM's do about 100% better, so I guess we can cross these expensive to reinforce dudes off the list. LRP allegedly hits infantry hard with anti-all damage so we can halfway take TCSM off the list. So I guess that leaves bloodletters.

Bloodletters actually do something that the LRP can't, and I think the reinforce aura would help them the most because they can heal en mass from worship. Perhaps its something to watch.

But hell, we are in a beta no? Can we not just try this?

[dance commander]

Can somebody tell me what the key combination here is that we are afraid of in terms of chaos being too strong with a reinforcement point?

I've been wondering the same thing, it can't honestly be worse than a monstrous creature reinforcing and speeding up your synapse reliant army could it?
Unless some people here will try to argue that there's some kind of combination that could be stronger than nids endless swarm blobs under reinforce aura, genestealers, and what not, apparently chaos is the only faction that would benefit too much from a reinforce aura coming from a late t3 unit so I'm kinda curious.

[Raffa]

Can somebody tell me what the key combination here is that we are afraid of in terms of chaos being too strong with a reinforcement point?

In my experience, all Chaos can do really well in 1v1 is pressure pressure pressure. Ofc they can compete when pressured back but Chaos is realistically only going to win (assuming the players are equal skill) when pushing pushing pushing until there is nothing left to push. Even the so-called 'defense' hero, the PC, is more a defender against counterattacks via sword/fetid, bile/grenades, etc. who protects your offensive blob.

Considering this from a 1v1 POV, I could foresee some serious abuse with the LRP being used offensively to stun units while continually reinforcing surrounding squads who target enemy av and stunned squads.

Yes PC shrines give you the option of playing slightly more defensively and thus giving Chaos a slightly alternative playstyle, but it is too much imo to give a pressure-dependent race mobile on-field reinforcement.

That being said, Tyranids pressure better than Chaos and get mobile on-field reinforcement from the SL so maybe there is a case for giving the LRP a reinforcement aura. I just think the Phobos would overperform hugely in an offensive capacity (outperforming the guo) if on-field reinforcement was allowed from it.

Still, I would be happy to experiment with it since we're in a beta

[Nuclear Arbitor]

disable movement and/or weapons and/or other abilities when reinforce is active. that would prevent it from sitting in the back, killing all the enemies' vehicles and stopping all the chaos guys from retreating.

[Osinski]

To start, I'll mention I play 3v3 and 2v2 almost exclusively, and I know elite is balanced for 1v1, which I don't have experience in. So, grain of salt warning there.

I love buying the phobos because it's a good weapon platform for sitting in the back. I like the stun effect in that units can sort of fall back towards it for safety, or it can half lead a push, and pop that to initiate, immediately rolling backwards afterwards.

I don't know how reinforce would change chaos. On one hand, I could see the use of worship and a phobos to make a chaos army really frightening. Khorne worship could let everything fall back quickly while reinforcing, then push the advantage. Nurgle could heal everything while it reinforces, and tzeentch, well, things would disappear at half strength and reappear at full strength.

If I could put anything on a wishlist for it, it would be either of these, but likely not both:

1. Dirge Caster cooldown reduced. It's very vulnerable due to speed, size, and HP. This ability is great for saving it but I've seen some that only live long enough to use it once.

2. Increase the damage again. Make it something to really fear instead of just, ohh fuck it, we'll just rush it and watch the las cannons misfire or retarget on approach. Maybe the las cannons could retain their damage and it could get autocannons in place of its HB. Chaos loves autocannons, right?

[Arbit]

Make it something to really fear instead of just, ohh fuck it, we'll just rush it and watch the las cannons misfire or retarget on approach.

This is a problem, and a big on IMO. It really seems like the lascannons spend too much time flailing around and shooting at the wrong targets. Collectively, the two guns deal out 50 dps so it really hurts to waste half of it due to misfires and bad targeting. A laspred does 55 DPS with its main gun by comparison, and it does it a lot more reliably.

Just throwing out a random idea here: maybe we could add a burny AoE DoT aftereffect to the lascannons to improve its utility against infantry?

[Dark Riku]

Just throwing out a random idea here: maybe we could add a burny AoE DoT aftereffect to the lascannons to improve its utility against infantry?

That's the GUO's job. Phobos is AV.

[sk4zi]

so acutally the Land Raider is the big fat Transport for Space marines - the mobile base for them
even if they are corrupted by chaos imho.

you allready gave the sorcerer fieldreinforce on a - my personal view - a still very good global. might be ok but now the chaos Lord is the only hero in the game who cant provide field reinforce.
i dont think this kind of strange but its another point.

in my opinion it shoult have some support skill, simply because ot the fact that its a support vehicle.
but its not necessarily a field reinforce.

what if the LR has allwasy the mark o a hero like heretics have. it could for example provide the same stuff whoshipping heretics do. (according to the hero if possible)

[Dark Riku]

in my opinion it shoult have some support skill, simply because ot the fact that its a support vehicle.
but its not necessarily a field reinforce.

It has one.

what if the LR has allwasy the mark o a hero like heretics have. it could for example provide the same stuff whoshipping heretics do. (according to the hero if possible)

Are you serious?
Those buffs only come into effect when heretics are worshiping for a reason.

[Nurland]

I don't think giving LRP a buff during the Beta is not a bad idea. Like a health buff or some supporting aura. Just nothing over the top. And if LRP would seem like it's too strong with the buff then remove it.

Worship aura does seem like a bit questionable.

[Ace of Swords]

Not sure if this makes sense, but what about giving it marks?

Mark of khorne would increase it's speed (fire rate too?)

Mark of nurgle would give it and HP increase aswell as small self-repair rate

Mark of Tzeentch more sight radius + abit longer firing range?

[Arbit]

Just throwing out a random idea here: maybe we could add a burny AoE DoT aftereffect to the lascannons to improve its utility against infantry?

That's the GUO's job. Phobos is AV.

The GUO's job is long range AV with a minor anti infantry AOE DOT?

The phobos would still be primarily AV. The phobos already does 80 dps to infantry with its bolter, so all it would be is an increase of its existing anti infantry power, not a radical shift in unit purpose.

Or...

How about a lock-down ability kind of like the Panzer Elite panzer IV (I think) - basically, it the ability would keep the phobos in place (but let it rotate freely so its easier to keep both guns trained on something) and increase its rate of fire. Maybe increase the effect of the dirge caster while locked-down, or give it a commander specific bonus effect (CL - damage increase to nearby friendly units, PC - heal and/or slow aura, Sorc - .... dunno, have it spray doom bolts... mass infil sounds a little op).

[Torpid]

Maybe just give the thing 5k hp and be covered in warboss spiky armour so melee can't touch it without receiving a 100 heavy melee damage per hit with a splash radius of 42.

[Arbit]

Have a little faith that no one is suggesting something so ludicrous, and that Caeltos would shoot it down if someone did.

I didn't put numbers to my suggestions, so it could be anything from pointless (+5% ROF) to absurd (+300% ROF). Just throwing out ideas to see if the concept appeals to anyone. I think sacrificing movement for some extra ROF could be an interesting ability, and the number could be adjusted to be fair (+15-30% maybe?). Increased dirge caster effect also seems fair since it couldn't kite while locked down, and presumably you'd have a 10-20 second cooldown on the lockdown toggle.

[Forestradio]

New Suggestion: Give it a Havoc Launcher ability, which shoots a missile that deals damage and knockback to infantry in an area. Make it light damage, but lots of knockback.
Adds to the disruption/defensive capabilities of it.

I have no idea if that is what Havoc Launchers do in the lore, but I do know that Chaos Land Raiders can mount them.

Maybe just give the thing 5k hp and be covered in warboss spiky armour so melee can't touch it without receiving a 100 heavy melee damage per hit with a splash radius of 42.

Can we keep it real here please?

[Torpid]

Why buff it when the thing isn't even underperforming atm???????

[Forestradio]

Why buff it when the thing isn't even underperforming atm???????

Because we're in a beta and we want to try things out that make the game better. If it turns out to be OP, get rid of it in the next beta, and that's it