Ork Topic

[Cyris]

Spiky armor is bad like TMs Bionics was bad back in the day. Artificers Armor did everything it did but better, albeit in different ways, so it could be argued that they are "just different". That's the WB right now when it comes to Spikey. It is an inferior investment in so many situations that it goes from being "niche" too "in need of changes" in some peoples minds, mine included.

Is the WB strong? Yep. Does he need buffs? No, I don't think so. Is Spikey Armor a upgrade that is inferior to similarly costed, mutually exclusive upgrades that scale better and compliment the WB? Yep. And upgrades like that are things that I think need changing. Build variety makes me happy on all sides of the matchup.

[Dark Riku]

Riku, stop it. I demand you post replays of spiky armor dominance. It isn't fine.

Do you see me bitching about apo heal getting a well deserved leveling buff (amongst other wargear buffs)? No.

Do you see me saying that painboy heal is balanced? No.

I am trying to be objective (and unbiased) and really push for viable options in this game. More options and more diversity makes the game that much cooler. Tbh, I am already struggling against the warboss in most matchups as it is. But thats not the point. The point is that spiky armor is internally and externally under-performing.

It is just so clear right now that you aren't even giving "objective" a chance in this topic.

Tex stop it? I demand you to stop acting so stuck up.

Do you see me bitching about all the stuff that is good?
No, cuz why the fuck would anyone do that?

While you are trying to be objective I am actually being objective.
It is just so clear to me you only see what you want to see.

[Codex]

Whatever happened to arguments standing on their own merit? And the ad hominem attacks are so unnecessary.

[Tex]

Fair enough, I will stop attacking your comments that add up largely to "spiky armor is fine, I used it once", as soon as you provide all of us with a replay or two of evidence to support your claim.

Because, I can provide probably 100 replays to support mine, that being the complete absence of spiky armor's use.

And yes, to the nit-pickers out there, I understand that just because something HASN'T been used doesn't mean that it CAN'T or SHOULDN'T be used. But as far as my experience goes, the meta is usually a fantastic indicator of what gets the job done and what doesn't.

The side of this argument that I am on has provided more than enough logical argument around the internal under-performance, and in-game experience relating to the external under-performance of this wargear. I don't feel the burden of supplying replays to prove my point for this wargear is on my side of the argument, simply because that job has been done for me already by the many games involving the warboss that have been casted in elite, probably 99% of them (maybe even all) not including this wargear.

So there it is, plain as day for you. I leave myself wide open to be crushed and defeated in this argument. I don't understand how I am being stuck up, and thus I have laid out my terms in a strait forward manner:
1) Provide replay evidence to support your side of the argument as the burden of proof truly rests with the people who say spiky armor is fine.
2) Defeat the arguments of the internal/external balance disparity of this wargear.

[Batpimp]

Fair enough, I will stop attacking your comments that add up largely to "spiky armor is fine, I used it once", as soon as you provide all of us with a replay or two of evidence to support your claim.

Because, I can provide probably 100 replays to support mine, that being the complete absence of spiky armor's use.

And yes, to the nit-pickers out there, I understand that just because something HASN'T been used doesn't mean that it CAN'T or SHOULDN'T be used. But as far as my experience goes, the meta is usually a fantastic indicator of what gets the job done and what doesn't.

The side of this argument that I am on has provided more than enough logical argument around the internal under-performance, and in-game experience relating to the external under-performance of this wargear. I don't feel the burden of supplying replays to prove my point for this wargear is on my side of the argument, simply because that job has been done for me already by the many games involving the warboss that have been casted in elite, probably 99% of them (maybe even all) not including this wargear.

So there it is, plain as day for you. I leave myself wide open to be crushed and defeated in this argument. I don't understand how I am being stuck up, and thus I have laid out my terms in a strait forward manner:
1) Provide replay evidence to support your side of the argument as the burden of proof truly rests with the people who say spiky armor is fine.
2) Defeat the arguments of the internal/external balance disparity of this wargear.

pretty fuckin much. This wargear never gets used. I have tried using against nids/orks and banshees and it doesnt trigger any ressitance to NOT fight the warboss. its lack luster in scaling pretty handily. The big stomp is just much better and later the eavy armor is even better at making him last longer in engagements.

[Raffa]

Sorry Riku but I disagree with you on this one. No way Spiky Armor is fine. Pretty much:

the meta is usually a fantastic indicator of what gets the job done and what doesn't.

Tbh this should be taken to heart in every balance discussion.

[Dark Riku]

@Tex

And yet you still attack me. I didn't use it just once. No lies please.

Because 1 or 2 random replays between 2 random guys = HARD EVIDENCE

I to have 100 games about certain armors not being used.
Must mean they all suck too right?

So I have to provide replays but you don't? Hypocrite much? And then you tell us you don't have to provide replays because you have these random casts between random players in the, more often than not, 2v2 and 3v3 game mode?

Lemme spell it out plain as day for you too:
1) Just because you say so doesn't make it true.
The "burden of proof" does not only lie with "the ones that say spiky armor is fine".
2) Just because it's niche doesn't make it useless. You have other options.

[Forestradio]

regardless of whether or not spiky armor is UP or not, it is still far underused compared to the big stomp armor, which is
a)just as effective against melee squads (tics, gaunts, shees etc)
b)doesn't require the opponent to attack your WB
c) can be combined with angry bits for some absolute wreckage of any enemy ranged blob

I don't really have an issue with it being given a buff. Attacking the WB with your melee squad is stupid, you should be going after his shootas and then his sluggas before taking on the boss, just due to stomp and 360 degree specials.

Of course, I generally play SM in 1v1, against whom spiky armor is definitely useless compared to big stomp, so maybe I don't understand............................

[Torpid]

the meta is usually a fantastic indicator of what gets the job done and what doesn't.

Tbh this should be taken to heart in every balance discussion.

Raffa you do realise nobody takes your comments seriously right? You're such a hypocrite. Here you acknowledge that the meta is a great indicator of balance (which it is btw).

And here you try to argue that something is woefully underused and so basically that the meta is wrong

The Libby is criminally underused by everyone, and I mean everyone

And I guess I shall try and get the spiky armour to work for myself in a few replays.
The main thing to note however is that were the current meta very melee intensive the spiky armour would be great, however it isn't and thus it isn't so good. Maybe melee should get a buff...

[Tex]

@Tex

And yet you still attack me. I didn't use it just once. No lies please.

Because 1 or 2 random replays between 2 random guys = HARD EVIDENCE

I to have 100 games about certain armors not being used.
Must mean they all suck too right?

So I have to provide replays but you don't? Hypocrite much? And then you tell us you don't have to provide replays because you have these random casts between random players in the, more often than not, 2v2 and 3v3 game mode?

Lemme spell it out plain as day for you too:
1) Just because you say so doesn't make it true.
The "burden of proof" does not only lie with "the ones that say spiky armor is fine".
2) Just because it's niche doesn't make it useless. You have other options.

I don't even know where to start with this post. So many directions I can take this.

Quite honestly though, I'm not going to say much more however. I have laid out my arguments and reasoning very carefully and in a largely constructive manner, aside from a few jabs I have thrown.

You have responded with jabs of your own (which I find to be completely fair) but yet you have not answered my questions, argued against or even bothered to understand my logic, and most importantly, you have not risen to the challenge I have provided for you - that being to create or find replays demonstrating spiky armor being used effectively.

/end

[sk4zi]

why nobody posts replays then, if you are both want them riku and tex?

[Indrid]

Cleaned up some of the recent useless posts. Stop antagonising each other and stick to the topic.

[Raffa]

Raffa wrote:
Tex wrote:
the meta is usually a fantastic indicator of what gets the job done and what doesn't.


Tbh this should be taken to heart in every balance discussion.


Raffa you do realise nobody takes your comments seriously right? You're such a hypocrite. Here you acknowledge that the meta is a great indicator of balance (which it is btw).

And here you try to argue that something is woefully underused and so basically that the meta is wrong
Raffa wrote:
The Libby is criminally underused by everyone, and I mean everyone


And I guess I shall try and get the spiky armour to work for myself in a few replays.
The main thing to note however is that were the current meta very melee intensive the spiky armour would be great, however it isn't and thus it isn't so good. Maybe melee should get a buff...

K let's leave it there, cos even though I am like 10x the player you ever will be my posts get derrreted if I criticise...end of flame war for me.

[Toilailee]

My eyes bleed just skimming this.


Riku stop being such ignorant cunt in every balance discussion. If you can't make any rational arguments and just keep calling people idiots or drop your opinions around as if they were undeniable truth.. just stop.
C'mon Riku even we used to get along when you made amends for your previous behaviour, recognized your faults and started treating people properly. Don't turn back into your old self now.

And your royal highness Raffa, no matter where I read your posts during last few months, all I see is you acting like overly conceited smug. Always resorting to telling people how much better you are than them or in games always flaming or complaining about op shit when they were barely used in those games.
What happened man? I remember you being a real nice guy before you got your dow2 ego boost.


/I'm out

[Lag]

My eyes bleed just skimming this.


Riku stop being such ignorant cunt in every balance discussion. If you can't make any rational arguments and just keep calling people idiots or drop your opinions around as if they were undeniable truth.. just stop.
C'mon Riku even we used to get along when you made amends for your previous behaviour, recognized your faults and started treating people properly. Don't turn back into your old self now.

And your royal highness Raffa, no matter where I read your posts during last few months, all I see is you acting like overly conceited smug. Always resorting to telling people how much better you are than them or in games always flaming or complaining about op shit when they were barely used in those games.
What happened man? I remember you being a real nice guy before you got your dow2 ego boost.


/I'm out

QFT


Re Ork balance:

I've been playin Ork a lot lately. The only thing I can say is - Shootas are still stupidly OP, and so is the Painboy. They still transition to T3 with only one unit purchase in T2, and their t3 is amazing. This is the only concern I have with this race.
I would honestly still go with lowering Shoota speed with Nob purchased to reduce their attack-move-kill-everything potential, not to mention the fact that their detection is still broken: using invisible stuff is pretty much pointless against Ork because he will always have Shootas and getting detection is easy as spending some req and power that is very useful anyway. Yes, this is present with other races as well (SM, Chaos), but you can easily shoo them off (Scouts) or are melee so can't deal with improvised explosives and similar stuff without at least some micro (Tics). Other races have to purchase a whole different unit which might not be a part of their build just to get detection. This is the main reason Ork can go double Shoota into T2 - they serve all purposes. I have no idea how to solve this problem other than to make detection a third upgrade which serves only that purpose and is not that cheap.

[Arbit]

IMO the 100% fotm for the shoota nob should be dropped to the standard 50%. Given the advantages he brings to the squad (excellent burst dps, detection, immortal, a little bit of melee power) it's not like he needs a little something extra to make him worth his cost. Otherwise I think shootas are ok.... I guess I was never really happy with the shoota nob being immortal and non-ig immortal squad leaders in general, but it looks like that concept is here to stay.

(ps nerf fleshhooks and remove immortal squad leaders )

(pps regarding the drama, I think if everyone did not start with the base assumption that the person they're arguing with is an idiot, and that a proposed nerf to your race is not a mortal insult, then things would go a lot smoother around here)

[Dark Riku]

regardless of whether or not spiky armor is UP or not, it is still far underused compared to the big stomp armor, which is
a)just as effective against melee squads (tics, gaunts, shees etc)
b)doesn't require the opponent to attack your WB
c) can be combined with angry bits for some absolute wreckage of any enemy ranged blob
...

How does big stomp give you any return though if the Warboss isn't in melee? (b)
And you could always bait out the big stomp because it takes some time to activate.
Or drain his energy, stun the Wb, etc. While spiky armor is always there.

-----------------

why nobody posts replays then, if you are both want them Riku and tex?

I never requested such a pointless thing.
-----------------

@Toilailee: Excellent contribution with the swearing and all!

This is a forum where people may post their own opinions. I'm not calling anyone an idiot or anything similar. I am merely disagreeing with some of the things on here.
If you can show me where I insulted anyone I will happily apologies to said person.
I on the other hand am very much insulted that you suggest my post aren't well thought over or have no rationality behind them.

I don't see where I am not treating anyone properly.
This isn't the place for this kind of discussion either.
-----------------

@Arbit: I'm not so sure about removing the 100% FoTM thing.
It's kinda what Orks do. Push the advantage when they have it. It's their little trait.
Sorry if that's not enough reasons for some people but it's just my opinion.

[Caeltos]

Riku, stop provoking tex for fuck sake.

I edited your post. No need to bring your previous message back up again, it was deleted for a reason.

[Toilailee]

Have a replay with random spiky armor usage vs ht.

I don't feel it did much and big stomp could've created much more confusion.

[Raffa]

Can we please leave this and move on? I for one come to the site to discuss the mod

I don't see a need to take away 100% fotm from the shoota nob. Yes he brings advantages but I think all of this is factored into the cost and 25 power seems appropriate. You may have overlooked the +15% passive damage in T2 he gives but I think all in all he's in a good spot; 25 power ain't cheap.

@Lag

Other races have to purchase a whole different unit which might not be a part of their build just to get detection

IG usually buys one of spotters or catas. Tyranids realistically will get warriors of one kind or another at some point. I would argue those units are quite intrinsic to those races' BOs. So that leaves Eldar, and there is (was?) a topic about Eldar detection but I don't really see a solution that would create more problems than it solves. However I agree double shoota serves a lot of purposes, but that's always been pretty defining for Orks. And what makes the painboy 'stupidly op'?

[FiSH]

i used to think painboy heal is quite fine, until... this happened.

to put a perspective on the painboy heal:
2x AC tics cannot outmelee 1x slugga + painboy heal. both of my tics almost got wiped, sluggas lost one model.

[Forestradio]

Riku, I'm not really sure what you are talking about.
Big stomp armor doesn't offer anything else other than melee? Lolwut?

It performs anti-melee just as well as spiky armor. The unit (AC tics, shees, guants) doesn't even have to attack the boss, and if you try to bait it, his shootas suppress and dakka you to death, while at the same time crying about how they shall never, ever have enough dakka.

Big stomp can also be combined for complete disruption of any ranged blob. It is difficult to bait his stomp when you are already knocked down.
As for stunning the boss or draining his energy, there are very few T1 commanders who can do that

Bascially, no one buys spiky armor because big stomp does anti-melee just as well and also offers anti-ranged/general disruption. Is that really so hard to understand?

[Dark Riku]

@Caeltos: I'm sorry for posting it again. I thought I derped when trying to post and though I forgot to press send. That's why I tried to remake it.
Tex and I had a small civilized talk continuing on the topic so it won't be in the thread again. We don't have any grudge against each other or something ^^


@forestradio: The "lolwhut" isn't helping whatever case you are trying to make.

Yes, the Warboss needs to be in melee range for the stomp to actually do something.
The shootas in turn can be tied up, suppressed, etc.
Why are the units blobbed up? They should be split and move when you get close.
How are they already knocked down exactly?

You tell me. Is it hard to understand?

[Forestradio]

@Caeltos: I'm sorry for posting it again. I thought I derped when trying to post and though I forgot to press send. That's why I tried to remake it.
Tex and I had a small civilized talk continuing on the topic so it won't be in the thread again. We don't have any grudge against each other or something ^^


@forestradio: The "lolwhut" isn't helping whatever case you are trying to make.

Yes, the Warboss needs to be in melee range for the stomp to actually do something.
The shootas in turn can be tied up, suppressed, etc.
Why are the units blobbed up? They should be split and move when you get close.
How are they already knocked down exactly?

You tell me. Is it hard to understand?

The warboss can knock down enemies with angry bits, then immediately follow up with big stomp. This is not all that of an uncommon combo to use. Angry bits also allows disruption of a lot of units so long as they are standing in a somewhat straight line.

Spiky bits REQUIRE the warboss to be attacked in melee, which is dumb even without spiky bits. Big stomp does not require the WB to be attacked, you just need him near the squad you want to smash.

How does one tie up the shootas and bait the warboss at the same time? He's not going to waste the stomp when your AC tics are mobbing his shootas. He'll use it, put UYC on the sluggas, and get himself a nice squad wipe.

Apologies if my original post was unclear.

[Lag]

IG usually buys one of spotters or catas. Tyranids realistically will get warriors of one kind or another at some point. I would argue those units are quite intrinsic to those races' BOs. So that leaves Eldar, and there is (was?) a topic about Eldar detection but I don't really see a solution that would create more problems than it solves. However I agree double shoota serves a lot of purposes, but that's always been pretty defining for Orks.

Yes, Warriors will also get you detection, but they bleed power, and players have more than one reason to focus them right away (to avoid having a detector, and synapse). As for IG - I, for one, have preferred builds like triple GM into HWT, or double/triple Sent. No room for getting a req/power squad in there (which will bleed you power and delay the t2 mind you). Hey, there's another idea - why not make Shootas bleed power once they get a Nob? Just like Sniper Scouts do. That way getting the cheap one-in-all upgrade would actually have a trade-off.
And btw, same goes for ST sarge on GK - you will always have one squad, Sarge makes them tougher, have more dps and gives them detection - just make detection a different upgrade, or make them bleed you power.

And what makes the painboy 'stupidly op'?

Remember retail? Remember how broken Ork economy was? Then it got fixed in ELITE through balancing. Still, you have a race which bleeds so little in T1 (and wipes stuff so easily with Shoota's killy potential and Sluggas speed and melee damage) that you can go for one of two the two no-bleed units in t2 (WB or WT) which synergises brilliantly with the existing combo, that you need only that for going straight to t3. Now you also have the Painboy who doesn't bleed himself, and helps other units greatly in not bleeding as well. Just too much req and power saved through the t1 and t2.

[Raffa]

The painboy HoT is pretty incredible. Could it be changed to become more powerful through the tiers but weakened to start with?

15 hp/s per model in T1 is just crazy!

[Dark Riku]

@forestradio: Sure, in all those best case scenarios it is a great combo.
However the enemy should normally have some sort of suppression or knockback and should not blob up his units in said fashion.

@Lag: The point about Warriors was that you don't have to go out of your way to get them because almst all Nid builds include these guys due to how Nids work and benefit so greatly from having synapse around. Of course you want to focus these guys down but can't always do that with a swarm in between ^^
Warriors are usually on the second line. Front line is usually a bad idea for them.

I think making shootas/troopers bleed power after purchasing their leader would make the bleed they cause to much. They are core units of their armies after all.

[Lag]

You don't have to make it a hard bleed. 1-2 power per model is just fine to make people feel the pain, but still impacts the rate and difficulty at which you can switch to t2/t3.

As for Warriors - they still cost and bleed power.

[Torpid]

Shootas bleed ample, I don't think the ork t1 is that op. Shoota nobs cost 25 power you know, it's quite a lot. They certainly don't need their FOTM took away as like Riku said that's part of the race. They can't get blastmasters, p devs and assault cannon dreads so when they push they have to push hard, they can't do half-assed efforts, there's no turning back for orks. Ultimately termagants in synapse are nearly as scary as shootas with just their nob and bleed less while being 10 power cheaper, the ork eco is fine imo.

Regarding the painboy - his HOT is game changing if you don't deal with it, however it should be, this guy's a 30 power investment and does little vs suppression and his HOT can be wasted through control methods. I think more of the issue with the painboy is how crazy high his dps is alongside those HOT sluggas. I don't understand why he does 50 PM dps with a DOT in t1 by default. Maybe he should get his DOT+power melee in t2? Then there's the issue of the orks being practically undefeatable so long as their WB/mek are in close proximity to the painboy+weirdboy.

Mek suppresses your blob, weirdboy+shootas control your ranged inf and artillery and any melee squads get absolutely devoured by painboy+sluggas+vomit, add in a trukk to force them to get AV as well as allowing you to get trukk-bustas+beamy if they get a walker. Tech to t3 and get either the BW or a looted tank spam. Now that's a hard BO to counter imo.

Oh and shootas have 100 inf hp whereas warriors have 360 HI armour, you aren't going to feel warrior bleed, but even at 1 power per model you would feel shoota power bleed. The reason why sniper scouts cost power is because you're switching their roles - rather than being bold, fragile, frontline glass cannons with their shotguns you are making them very long ranged safe sniper units therefore they will bleed far less and so to compensate it should hurt you a bit more when they do bleed so they get that power cost.

[Lag]

Shootas bleed less once they have their nob, they do insane amount of damage, are mobile as hell and get a free damage boost in t2. They also get detection. Give me a 25 power upgrade that gives all that any day.