Hive Tyrant Venom Cannon

[Torpid]

As I'm sure you're all aware the Hive Tyrant VC is pretty universally the most popular upgrade for him atm.

It is not only some of the best AV that nids get now thanks to the HT actually being tanky unlike venom brood models, as well as being quite mobile with charge, but it also does really good damage to infantry courtesy of its splash.

The venom cannon was nerfed before in terms of its splash reducing it in half (from a 360 to 180 degree splash) yet it still is extremely strong as an anti-infantry weapon. The phenomena of having splash with a ranged weapon also really messes up accuracy as the splash will make it hit units even if the actual projectile itself should miss.

Therefore the very simplest solution to nerfing the venom cannon's anti infantry capabilities is to entirely remove the splash. To compensate it would of course become cheaper - 120/25 perhaps?

How does the community feel about such a change?

[boss]

only if nids get more better av right now only ht is play In 1s for a reason

[Oddnerd]

Seems perfectly fair to me - right now the venom cannon functions as an anti-all weapon. If the codex is correct, it has 100% fotm as well, which makes it extremely dangerous on a tanky commander with suppression immunity, who is also commonly at the center of a large ranged blob. Changing it to strictly anti-vehicle (and anti-terminator and other large targets) would create a more clear trade-off and force people to consider how much they actually need it.

I understand that Tyranids lack a lot of reliable AV so it should still be perfectly viable to fill that niche, especially with a cost decrease.

[Torpid]

only if nids get more better av right now only ht is play In 1s for a reason

But its AV capabilities in this instance would not be decreased. In fact, it would be increased if the VC itself is cheaper and isn't going to get a damage nerf.

The ravener alpha also gets an AV ranged weapon in T2, it is only the LA that has no AV options.

[boss]

hmmm alright but nids need an av buff or just change the zona back for good sake pls

[Adeptus Noobus]

I don't know about 25 power, that seems a little bit too low. I think taking it from 40 to 30 is still ok.

Btw., am I reading that right, that this weapon, since it belongs to the brightlance_pvp weapon family, ignores cover and deals full damage or is that just a Codex hickup?

[Torpid]

I don't know about 25 power, that seems a little bit too low. I think taking it from 40 to 30 is still ok.

Btw., am I reading that right, that this weapon, since it belongs to the brightlance_pvp weapon family, ignores cover and deals full damage or is that just a Codex hickup?

You are reading correctly. It is quite insane on an unsuppressable hero. A good SUT counter that's for sure, especially with warp field.

[Adeptus Noobus]

[Ace of Swords]

It should never hit infantry nor have any splash period, the hero itself is still tanky enough to tie up squads forever and still damage them enough to be annoying in melee even with the VC upgrade and has an AV weapon it's good enough to solo vehicles and didn't suffer from the melee resistence given to walkers like the fs,fc,pc,lc did.

[Forestradio]

it's fine just focus the ht

[valar]

Interesting

[Cyris]

I'll second Tex and boss - nid AV needs a change generally speaking. Right now, I strongly feel the HT is the only viable nid hero because of AV. Ranged damage vehicles are just too damn strong against the entire nid roster, with the HT's venom cannon being the only answer.

That said, changing the HT VC to pvp_anti_vehicle damage and/or losing splash would be totally fine by me, with a cost change like you mentioned Torpid (or even a small damage increase also).

Maybe give zoans Warp Blast the snare back, but remove all the damage and increase it's cost / cooldown.

[hiveminion]

I agree VC should lose it's anti-infantry potential. I'm all for removing as many anti-everything fire-on-the-move ranged bollocks from the game as possible.

Regarding the Zoanthrope, yes please return the snare, and DON'T nerf it, the AV of the Zoanthrope was never OP once the stacking snare was removed. Perhaps the range was a bit too much but then again the wind-up of that ability is so freaking long any shots fired at maximum range usually bug out once LoS is lost. The only OP aspect of the Zoanthrope since forever has been the health regeneration and that needs to be adressed, leave the (old) Warp Blast alone.

[boss]

plus 1 to what hive and cyris says give back old zoan with no stacking heath regeneration and same cost as now job done no bugs when doing this pls like the da Exarch don't want to see 400 damage zoan or other stupid stuff pleasss. make ht venom cannon only av as well

[Black Relic]

I agree on the giveing the zoanthrope a snare back but it have damage? No.

If zon got its snare back 2 zons would be absolutely cancerous and cause transports vs nids to become completely redundant. Not to mention with the snare Nids can actually hit a tank, so adding damage to that snare is a nono when you look at the nid roster. Because Hive i know this is what you will do because i will as well to make tank completely useless.

Snare with zonthrobe and run rippers to it to slow it even more. Then the tank is truly dead if the nid player has any amount of AV damage and completely removes nids weakness. If the damage is removed but the snare present then that allows for more counter play and vs a nids you have to risk a lot to save your shit most of the time.

Bottom line, imo Zon can get his snare back but loses the damage. The snare helps take down vehicles in of itself by allowing other sources of AV to catch up. The snare alone helps immensely in nids ability to deal with a tank, which is what nids should have a hard time dealing with any since it's their main weakness.


As for the HTVC, I haven't seen it bother me too much unless im a swarmy race, of my units were really blobed up. Id say lower the splash a tad from 180 to 75,-75 (same cone for ASM and Default FC special attack width), remove the 100% FoTM to 50%. Also I would change the how the splash damage works a bit. And go from there. Don't want to completely remove splash damage, but would rather nerf it. Because then the weapon will hardly ever see action, especially if the zon get its snare back.

[hiveminion]

I agree on the giveing the zoanthrope a snare back but it have damage? No.

If zon got its snare back 2 zons would be absolutely cancerous and cause transports vs nids to become completely redundant. Not to mention with the snare Nids can actually hit a tank, so adding damage to that snare is a nono when you look at the nid roster. Because Hive i know this is what you will do because i will as well to make tank completely useless.

Snare with zonthrobe and run rippers to it to slow it even more. Then the tank is truly dead if the nid player has any amount of AV damage and completely removes nids weakness. If the damage is removed but the snare present then that allows for more counter play and vs a nids you have to risk a lot to save your shit most of the time.

Bottom line, imo Zon can get his snare back but loses the damage. The snare helps take down vehicles in of itself by allowing other sources of AV to catch up. The snare alone helps immensely in nids ability to deal with a tank, which is what nids should have a hard time dealing with any since it's their main weakness.

This 'obnoxious' double Zoanthrope snare play was not a problem previously, Transports and especially Tanks were perfectly viable against Nids before. Obviously I mean the damage of Warp Blast should be reduced to its old value and not kept at its current value. With its increased cost, double Zoanthropes are 800/100 for two hyper-vulnerable targets (especially when the health regeneration is finally nerfed). Two shots won't kill any vehicle except maybe a Manticore.

Considering Nids have no decent long-range AV, and most of their AV is melee, I see no reason why the previous version of Warp Blast would need to be nerfed.

And please don't suggest what I will and will not do, I'm not suggesting balance changes with any kind of agenda in mind.

[Oddnerd]

I would rather the zoans have an effective snare but no damage on the FWB. Right now people just buy 3 or 4 of the damn things and blow huge chunks out of vehicles, often 1-shot killing lighter vehicles with mutltiple FWBs at once. A unit that is so dangerous to infantry blobs should not be dangerous to vehicles in that way at all. Having only a snare means that they contribute AV to the army only if there are other units in the army that can damage the vehicle once the snare is cast.

[Black Relic]

Never claimed you had an agenda, only stated how as a Tyranid player you (and me as well) will use what is available for you to deal with a problem. And if that problem is a tank you want to be able to hit it. Using a zontrobe snare as well as rippers seems appropriate to help deal with the problem since that vehicle will nearly be 100% snared unless the opposing player makes the ripper's a high priority (because they are trying to save their tank)allowing for the rest of the nid army to focus elsewhere and be relatively ignored (not including the synapse creatures).

When any suggestion (even agreeing with a proposal) is made other things have to be taken into consideration. Like usefulness of the change, what it means for other races. the way a player can use/counter(deal with) this change etc. The snare is already huge now since genestealers get heavy melee in t2 and i think with the snare tyrant guards can hit transports a few time when under synapse (although they would normally be engaging a high priority range squad in theory). I want 2 zons to be able to help with taking down a vehicle without having a damage spike.

Personally I want zons cost to go back to their old price and get their snare back but lose the damage. And then see what happens. Because i have gotten two zons before with Ravener Alpha with damage synapse, put catalist on a zoanthrope and watched my enemy cry.

- However apon some consideration, i have conceded to allowing it to have some damage but not 100. Bring the damage down to 70-85 and go from there.

As for zons being high priority targets yes i do agree so your enemy will really attempt to get at them. And a nid player who has one out knows this so they will do their best to keep an eye on him. Whenever they are in the slightest amount of trouble most people just retreat them out, that's what i normally do unless the zon was (somehow) initiated on and i had counter initiation nearby.

[hiveminion]

Personally I want zons cost to go back to their old price and get their snare back but lose the damage. And then see what happens. Because i have gotten two zons before with Ravener Alpha with damage synapse, put catalist on a zoanthrope and watched my enemy cry.

- However apon some consideration, i have conceded to allowing it to have some damage but not 100. Bring the damage down to 70-85 and go from there.

Fair enough, I would agree with either of these changes.

[Forestradio]

A unit that is so dangerous to infantry blobs should not be dangerous to vehicles in that way at all

You talking about autocannons?

Or wraithguard?

Or chosen plague marines?

A bit off-topic, but all of those need some fundamental changes as do anti-all weapons in general.

[Tinibombini]

While I agree that all of those things need to be changed, it is not really accurate to compare the Hive Tyrant with the venom cannon to the other units that you listed for obvious reasons.

Just to take the autocannon as an example, you are comparing a setup team to a very tanky unit that can charge with an upgrade.

[Oddnerd]

A unit that is so dangerous to infantry blobs should not be dangerous to vehicles in that way at all

You talking about autocannons?

Or wraithguard?

Or chosen plague marines?

A bit off-topic, but all of those need some fundamental changes as do anti-all weapons in general.

I'm happy to see all of those changed, but zoans are a special case because of how long-ranged their attack is, combined with a lack of setup time.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

A unit that is so dangerous to infantry blobs should not be dangerous to vehicles in that way at all

You talking about autocannons?

Or wraithguard?

Or chosen plague marines?

A bit off-topic, but all of those need some fundamental changes as do anti-all weapons in general.

Seriously are you compairing the Heavy Melee (50% damage to vehicles)DOT in a slow non melee charge melee squad that are the Chosen Plague Marines with Wraithguard or with Havocs or with the HT VC?

[Dark Riku]

@ Tini and Lost. Take some more time to read please. It's compared to a zoan, not to a VC HT.

[Tinibombini]

@ Tini and Lost. Take some more time to read please. It's compared to a zoan, not to a VC HT.

My bad, you are correct.