Dawn of War 3 EGX Analysis

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I like how we're debating fantasy space science like it's a real thing that doesn't contradict itself ten times a minute.

Nope, we are simply talking about consistency about Warhammer 40k Lore. Because even a imaginary universe needs it if don't want to slowly turn into a fuckfest of retard ideas where everything is possible with the excuse of "a wizard did it" or "hey, its an imaginary world!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVgVB3qsySQ

Except, of course, if the idea is, as is said in Spain in a rude way: "it's mine and I fuck it as I wish", in which case, well, the discussion is over.

[Black Relic]

I like how we're debating fantasy space science like it's a real thing that doesn't contradict itself ten times a minute.

It's clear no one tried to watch the video i posted that had terminator armor 40K lore in it. And it has nothing to do with the sciences of 40K. It has to do with representing the lore of a race or unit rather than shitting all over it. A terminator can not jump 15 feet into the air. That is shiting on the lore. Assault Marines used to have light armor in the dow3 game which got quickly changed because it shit all over power armor and people were pissed. Lascannons still get crap for not feeling like a weapon that does anything. It just looks like a lasgun that for some reason does AV damage. Mainly because of the visual. Marines dying in droves. It didn't happen so much even in dow1 like it seems to in dow3 (taking how space marines was "balanced" in the campaign showcases although pvp is still needed to have a good idea on actual balance) and there squad count is lower. Pretty funny if you ask me.

The hype for this game nearly died out because from what i can see people aren't looking forward to this game as much. I am pretty sure the for once in the gaming community people will not buy the game and wait for reviews first before purchasing. Which is what most people should do in the first place. But if the game had the visuals i mostly likely would instant buy it. Atm fuck no i don't want it unless there are reviews that could change my mind.

[Gorbles]

The lore is not consistent. Sorry folks.

For every example of lore you find to support your case, I can find a piece of lore that contradicts it.

This has nothing to do with pre-order culture and how people are being (sensibly) recommended to wait for reviews these days. You're attempting to link two unlinked situations. You're attempted to present your own opinion of the game as The Opinion of the game just because you know people that are complaining about it too.

There are many, many people that criticise aspects of DoW III for apparent lore transgressions, but then fail to understand where Relic has used the lore appropriately. A bit hypocritical, in my experience. In this specific case (you folks) it's more that you simply don't understand how vast the 40k universe is. There are stories where Marines fall X00 metres down a shaft and land without even cracking their armour. There are stories where they get hit by a Choppa from a regular Ork and crack wide open.

Space Marine armour is not defined in precise scientific terms. The height to which Space Marines can jump is not defined in precise scientific terms. I've had people tell me Space Marines can't swim ergo they can't jump and my mind just shuts down. Space Marines can swim. Their armour when powered by servos is effectively weightless.

This is completely ignoring "gameplay before lore". Space Marines jumping a bit high does not break the lore to the extent you think it does. Well, maybe it does for you. But then I recommend basically never reading a Black Library novel, ever again.

[Dark Riku]

For every example of lore you find to support your case, I can find a piece of lore that contradicts it.

Find us a somersaulting terminator

[Gorbles]

For every example of lore you find to support your case, I can find a piece of lore that contradicts it.

Find us a somersaulting terminator

Tartarus pattern, actually.

Tactical Dreadnought Armour, or Terminator Armour as it is more usually known, is the most resilient form of personal protection available to the Adeptus Astartes. Originally developed during the closing years of the Great Crusade, and adapted from the heaviest of industrial gear, several types and patterns were developed concurrently.

Of these, the Indomitus pattern is perhaps the most widespread, due to its template being held on key Forge Worlds such as Mars, although Tartaros Pattern Terminator armour is also issued to the Veterans of a Chapter’s 1st Company. Perhaps the most advanced form of Tactical Dreadnought Armour, the Tartaros pattern shares many systems with the MkIV ‘Maximus’ pattern of power armour, and provides greater mobility for its wearer than the Indomitus pattern with no loss in durability or protection.

Another key example of critics not actually being familiar with the lore

So the only argument people have is "well I still don't think it's realistic" which could mean one of a thousand different things.

[Dark Riku]

And from what do you get that it can somersault? °_O
Greater mobility than another terminator armour variant does not mean somersaulting...

Tanks today also have greater mobility than the ones used back in WW1&2.
I guess we have somersaulting transformers now hu? Optimus Prime is real!

[Gorbles]

You really don't like being wrong, huh. Terminators are bipedal, and aren't tanks.

Normal Space Marines can jump and can perform physical feats that for some reason a lot of critics are completely forgetting or ignoring. The Tartarus plate is explicitly defined as being comparable to Mark IV Power Armour.

What you're arguing now is "how many feet in the air is unrealistic", which is an argument nobody can answer because it's magical fantasy space science. I have provided lore to support Angelos' animations. This is further supported by the intentional choice to make regular Terminators teleport. They don't jump. They don't somersault. Only Angelos, in his (by the lore provided for Gabriel Angelos) custom Tartarus-pattern armour, has that kind of movement.

[Dark Riku]

The Tartarus plate is explicitly defined as being comparable to Mark IV Power Armour.

Source?

And even if this were true that still doesn't mean it's the same. It's still terminator armor.

My tank analogy was to show how stupid the train of thought was of your in bold "greater mobility" text.
I'm not saying terminators are the same as tanks -.-

Also, don't you think it's kind of strange everyone else here disagrees with you?

And keep in mind this is only from a lore PoV. Nothing else.

[Ace of Swords]

You really don't like being wrong, huh. Terminators are bipedal, and aren't tanks.

Normal Space Marines can jump and can perform physical feats that for some reason a lot of critics are completely forgetting or ignoring. The Tartarus plate is explicitly defined as being comparable to Mark IV Power Armour.

What you're arguing now is "how many feet in the air is unrealistic", which is an argument nobody can answer because it's magical fantasy space science. I have provided lore to support Angelos' animations. This is further supported by the intentional choice to make regular Terminators teleport. They don't jump. They don't somersault. Only Angelos, in his (by the lore provided for Gabriel Angelos) custom Tartarus-pattern armour, has that kind of movement.

You completely lack any kind of reading comprehension or perhaps it's just desperation so you have to grasp at straws.

It shared many systems with the Mk IV Maximus-pattern power armour whilst providing greater mobility for the wearer compared to the Indomitus with no loss in durability.[4]

It shared many systems with the Mk IV Maximus-pattern power armour

systems

whilst providing greater mobility for the wearer compared to the Indomitus with no loss in durability.[4]

[/quote]

The mobility increase is ONLY compared to the indomitus terminator armour.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Termina ... os_Pattern

And no you did not provide any lore explanation you have none, lexicanum is the most reliable source of tl;dr on warhammer lore due to having every single source cited and this is what it says about the use of power armor:

Most Marine chapters maintain some Terminator suits in their armouries, and train some squads in their use. However, Terminator armour is not used by these Marines as a matter of course, but issued as and when required. Conventionally armoured Marines, for example, would not be expected to clear the densely-packed corridors of a hive world. Their task would be to form a cordon while Terminator-armoured squads carried out the clearance.

By the 41st millennium, Terminator armour is so prized that its use is reserved for when it will be at its most effective. Terminators may be used in boarding actions, where the cramped conditions and long corridors mean that the Terminator's strength and firepower can be brought to bear without the risk of flanking manoeuvres. Terminator armour may also be deployed on the open battlefield, either to wield devastating long-range fire with their heavy weapons, or deep-strike teleporting to attack the enemy's command structure.

Which clearly says it's mostly used in zones where it's hard to move and outflank, rarely on open battlefield and generally only used to provide heavy fire support, no fucking mentions of flipping termies moving like anime characters on the battlefield.

[Toilailee]

Maybe the planet(s) they're on in DoW3 have weaker gravity like the moon and allow for high jumps even with a lighter terminator armor. And Gabe's mad skills explain why no other marine is jumping.

[Gorbles]

The Tartarus plate is explicitly defined as being comparable to Mark IV Power Armour.

Source?

And even if this were true that still doesn't mean it's the same. It's still terminator armor.

My tank analogy was to show how stupid the train of thought was of your in bold "greater mobility" text.
I'm not saying terminators are the same as tanks -.-

Also, don't you think it's kind of strange everyone else here disagrees with you?

And keep in mind this is only from a lore PoV. Nothing else.

I literally gave you the source.

And I don't care how many people disagree with me. Hundreds of people still believe the Earth is flat! Or that scientology is real! Appeal to popularity, take it elsewhere.

And yes, this is only from a lore PoV. There is no other PoV that disagrees because gameplay and the clarity thereof is the most important design-based argument anyone can make, and it sides with Relic in that case.

The problem started when people said Relic were butchering the fluff to make their gameplay work. Hence, lore.

You really don't like being wrong, huh. Terminators are bipedal, and aren't tanks.

Normal Space Marines can jump and can perform physical feats that for some reason a lot of critics are completely forgetting or ignoring. The Tartarus plate is explicitly defined as being comparable to Mark IV Power Armour.

What you're arguing now is "how many feet in the air is unrealistic", which is an argument nobody can answer because it's magical fantasy space science. I have provided lore to support Angelos' animations. This is further supported by the intentional choice to make regular Terminators teleport. They don't jump. They don't somersault. Only Angelos, in his (by the lore provided for Gabriel Angelos) custom Tartarus-pattern armour, has that kind of movement.

You completely lack any kind of reading comprehension or perhaps it's just desperation so you have to grasp at straws.

It shared many systems with the Mk IV Maximus-pattern power armour whilst providing greater mobility for the wearer compared to the Indomitus with no loss in durability.[4]

It shared many systems with the Mk IV Maximus-pattern power armour

systems

whilst providing greater mobility for the wearer compared to the Indomitus with no loss in durability.[4][/quote

The mobility increase is ONLY compared to the indomitus terminator armour.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Termina ... os_Pattern

And no you did not provide any lore explanation you have none, lexicanum is the most reliable source of tl;dr on warhammer lore due to having every single source cited and this is what it says about the use of power armor:

Most Marine chapters maintain some Terminator suits in their armouries, and train some squads in their use. However, Terminator armour is not used by these Marines as a matter of course, but issued as and when required. Conventionally armoured Marines, for example, would not be expected to clear the densely-packed corridors of a hive world. Their task would be to form a cordon while Terminator-armoured squads carried out the clearance.

By the 41st millennium, Terminator armour is so prized that its use is reserved for when it will be at its most effective. Terminators may be used in boarding actions, where the cramped conditions and long corridors mean that the Terminator's strength and firepower can be brought to bear without the risk of flanking manoeuvres. Terminator armour may also be deployed on the open battlefield, either to wield devastating long-range fire with their heavy weapons, or deep-strike teleporting to attack the enemy's command structure.

Which clearly says it's mostly used in zones where it's hard to move and outflank, rarely on open battlefield and generally only used to provide heavy fire support, no fucking mentions of flipping termies moving like anime characters on the battlefield.

Lexicanum is fan-run and thus pales in comparison to the official produce description as licensed by GW. There's no need to be condescending just because you're in danger of losing an irrelevant Internet Argument.

Tartarus plate being comparable to Mk IV was my point.

Tartarus plate being more flexible than regular Terminator Armour was my point.

I did not say they were the same thing, and being more flexible alone allows room for jumping Terminators. There is a lore precedent for the animation, as exaggerated as you find it you can't invalidate something Forge World literally lists on their site.

Have a nice day!

PS: your attempt at BBCode was terrible so I fixed it for ya.

PPS: I just realised we've literally proven my statement of "find me a piece of lore and I'll find you one that contradicts". So I'm right twice!

PPPS: that quote of yours is lifted from, like, the core rulebook or something. That isn't the only book that exists in 40k.

PPPPS:

Lexicanum has virtually the same quote on Tartarus plate so I have no idea why you're arguing. The mobility that armour offers is greater than in normal Terminator armour. Ergo, physical feats of mobility must be easier to accomplish.

I mean, what is even your aim here? To have a go at me to make yourself feel better? I'm confused.

[Psycho]

And I don't care how many people disagree with me. Hundreds of people still believe the Earth is flat! Or that scientology is real! Appeal to popularity, take it elsewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

[Forestradio]

The lore's always been ignored to some degree in the DoW series, psykers shouldn't be able to ascend to Daemon Prince through the favor of Khorne, since he despises magic and psyker abilities but Sindri and Kyras do.

The whole terminators jumping thing is just another something people (myself included) like to pile on to the list of things they don't like about dow3, kinda like "Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking"

[Gorbles]

Oh, absolutely. People are allowed to find it immersion-breaking for themselves, or dislike it to their heart's content.

I was simply challenged to find some form of lore-based justification. Then I get, I dunno, huge amounts of mega-quoting because people can't understand what I linked.

And I don't care how many people disagree with me. Hundreds of people still believe the Earth is flat! Or that scientology is real! Appeal to popularity, take it elsewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztVMib1T4T4

I'm honoured by your bait

[Swift]

And thus another thread descends into pettiness.

[Tinibombini]

And thus another thread descends into pettiness.

In the grim darkness of the present, there is only salt and snark.

[Dark Riku]

I literally gave you the source.

Not sure in what universe you are living but in this one you gave a link to the FW website that doesn't state anything that you are claiming...

I did not say they were the same thing, and being more flexible alone allows room for jumping Terminators.

No it does not. What the actual fuck. That's a stupidly big leap in logic. See my tank example.

There is a lore precedent for the animation, as exaggerated as you find it you can't invalidate something Forge World literally lists on their site.

There is absolutely no lore precedent at all. That would be cool is FW actually said anything remotely like what you are claiming. But it does not.

PPS: I just realised we've literally proven my statement of "find me a piece of lore and I'll find you one that contradicts". So I'm right twice!

You have only proven that you live in your own fantasy world. Seriously. Nothing you say stands on the FW site...

[Gorbles]

*shrugs*

If you don't think that being in a more flexible Terminator armour gives justification for more exaggerated physical moves in a video game where gameplay and design come before adherence to lore, I don't know what to say.

This is like the 3-man Tactical Squad thing all over again.

[Aguxyz]

*shrugs*

If you don't think that being in a more flexible Terminator armour gives justification for more exaggerated physical moves in a video game where gameplay and design come before adherence to lore, I don't know what to say.

This is like the 3-man Tactical Squad thing all over again.

if this is the case dont call it dawn of war 40k then

[Psycho]

If you don't think that being in a more flexible Terminator armour gives justification for more exaggerated physical moves in a video game where gameplay and design come before adherence to lore, I don't know what to say.

So if you had to pick between lore adherence or somersaulting terminators, you'd go with the latter purely because a game centered around a certain lore doesn't need to adhere to said lore?

And you say "gameplay and design" as if it added anything to gameplay that couldn't be done in a lore adherent way. If anything you're implying that relic is incapable of being creative, an argument I'm not even going to touch with a pike. Flashy moves and lore adherence are in no way mutually exclusive, and you should know this considering we're talking about 40k of all things.

[Paranoid Kamikaze]

Games are going to change things (like bringing back the dead and jumping terminators) and books are going to change things. As well as the tabletop or anything else such as movies. The reason why is so that they can do things in their category of entertainment that is needed. The dead people were brought back because people liked them and Gabriel can jump to differentiate himself. This happens all the time in everything. Chill out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXEUh61o18c

[Dark Riku]

If you don't think that being in a more flexible Terminator armour gives justification for more exaggerated physical moves in a video game where gameplay and design come before adherence to lore, I don't know what to say.

This is like the 3-man Tactical Squad thing all over again.

Who ever said anything about that? I thought it was clear by now we were talking from a lore PoV only. And In no way does the lore support a somersaulting terminator. And you have still failed to give any evidence. "Greater mobility" than something already very slow and bulky is still something very slow and bulky!

Once I start playing he game I probably won't care much that it breaks the lore this hard, but that's not the discussion here right now.
I'd still prefer him to have some teleport animation instead of this super mario crap.

A 3 man tac squad is on the other hand very plausible. Chapters are by no means at full strength at all times.
The codex Astartes is more of a guideline to most chapters than anything else.
But that's another discussion altogether and should not be the focus right now.

[Gorbles]

If you don't think that being in a more flexible Terminator armour gives justification for more exaggerated physical moves in a video game where gameplay and design come before adherence to lore, I don't know what to say.

So if you had to pick between lore adherence or somersaulting terminators, you'd go with the latter purely because a game centered around a certain lore doesn't need to adhere to said lore?

And you say "gameplay and design" as if it added anything to gameplay that couldn't be done in a lore adherent way. If anything you're implying that relic is incapable of being creative, an argument I'm not even going to touch with a pike. Flashy moves and lore adherence are in no way mutually exclusive, and you should know this considering we're talking about 40k of all things.

If I had to pick between Gabriel maybe jumping higher than a specific set of custom Terminator armour which is known for exceeding regular Terminator mobility and . . . . Gabriel acting like a bog standard Terminator in Indomitus plate?

I'd pick the former every time. Gabriel Angelos does not wear regular Indomitus plate. Ergo, he does not behave like a regular Terminator wearing Indomitus plate. He's also a special character and everything that comes with that. Or have people forgotten the DoW II abilities which are certainly not grounded even in the tenuous made-up reality of 40k? Diomedes' earthquake earthshatter Tauren Chieftan charge attack, go!

You have to remember - it's not somersaulting Terminators. The regular (Assault) Terminators teleport. Only Gabriel, in his custom armour and presumably stuffed full of bionics, has exaggerated physical movements. That's a decent compromise between lore justification and gameplay clarity. On a special character, to boot.

[Aguxyz]

are you fucking serious just cause its a more flexible termi armor means he can move with ez? no just cause he has a bunch of bionics doesnt mean he can jump like a fucking harlequin in the sky, if that was the case all iron hands chapter members are pretty much like Gabriel right gorb? They can all jump in termi armor with ez.

[Gorbles]

are you fucking serious just cause its a more flexible termi armor means he can move with ez? no just cause he has a bunch of bionics doesnt mean he can jump like a fucking harlequin in the sky, if that was the case all iron hands chapter members are pretty much like Gabriel right gorb? They can all jump in termi armor with ez.

Doesn't it ever concern you that you can throw out massive exaggerations like it's nobody's business ("jumping like a harlequin"), but you hold Relic to an incredibly pedantic standard nobody can even agree on because physics in 40k are made-up?

Does this not seem a bit hypocritical?

[Dark Riku]

I don't get how you can even believe yourself Gorb... Geezus.
And then trying to shift the attention to something else. Priceless

Have you ever considered politics?

[Psycho]

Gabriel maybe jumping higher than a specific set of custom Terminator armour which is known for exceeding regular Terminator mobility and . . . . Gabriel acting like a bog standard Terminator in Indomitus plate?

I'd pick the former every time.

I like how you just needed to rephrase it so much just to have a single chance of sounding logical.

You care more about flashier moves than the lore, m8. Not only that, you see it in black and white, thinking that it's either Gabriel somersaulting past Primarch levels of finesse or Gabriel being a standard terminator, something nobody had an issue with regarding DoW2's CL or FC's terminator armor, or campaign-related terminator shenanigans.

You don't even have an argument in the first place. First you say it's lore-adherent purely by the idea that "more mobile" means what you think it means as you've been arguing with Riku, now you say it doesn't have to adhere to the lore, so what even is your stance on this? Just that relic gets to do whatever they want, regardless of whether they do things right or wrong? Because I'm 100% sure that if they had Gabriel be the standard terminator you dreaded, nobody would be complaining about him not somersaulting.

How much are they paying you?

[Gorbles]

Gabriel maybe jumping higher than a specific set of custom Terminator armour which is known for exceeding regular Terminator mobility and . . . . Gabriel acting like a bog standard Terminator in Indomitus plate?

I'd pick the former every time.

I like how you just needed to rephrase it so much just to have a single chance of sounding logical.

You care more about flashier moves than the lore, m8. Not only that, you see it in black and white, thinking that it's either Gabriel somersaulting past Primarch levels of finesse or Gabriel being a standard terminator, something nobody had an issue with regarding DoW2's CL or FC's terminator armor, or campaign-related terminator shenanigans.

You don't even have an argument in the first place. First you say it's lore-adherent purely by the idea that "more mobile" means what you think it means as you've been arguing with Riku, now you say it doesn't have to adhere to the lore, so what even is your stance on this? Just that relic gets to do whatever they want, regardless of whether they do things right or wrong? Because I'm 100% sure that if they had Gabriel be the standard terminator you dreaded, nobody would be complaining about him not somersaulting.

How much are they paying you?

It's a bit disappointing that people aren't allowed to like and defend the game without silly accusations, really. You don't see me going "who's paying you to criticise the game", a lot of it is just our opinions. All of it, really.

If I was getting paid, I certainly wouldn't be here

As for it being black and white, the only people doing that are the ones claiming exaggeration. If DoW II's abilities are acceptable to you, that's your own personal level of tolerance (read as: bias). The same goes for me and my acceptance of DoW III physics. It doesn't mean that the lore matters more or less to me. To that end, my position was that gameplay always comes before lore - I've said it multiple times. However, I was challenged to find some kind of supporting lore. So I did.

I don't think I'm the one rephrasing things here. Certainly, I have at least provided lore to support my argument, and there is no lore that contradicts the description of Tartarus plate.

So we're back to "how many metres high can a Terminator jump". Which is an unanswerable question! You don't have an answer. I don't have an answer. I can't think of a single book I've read that gives an answer to that because the 40k universe isn't rooted in hard science at all. 40k goes on the rule of cool. That is quite literally the only constant and the only justification for most of the actions made by all of its named characters.

[Ace of Swords]

So we're back to "how many metres high can a Terminator jump".

The answer is extremely easy, terminators don't jump at all, not even 30 centimeters.

The terminator armor is extremely resistant but it's also incredibly heavy and cumbersome it doesn't enchance movements at all, it restricts them.

[Dark Riku]

However, I was challenged to find some kind of supporting lore. So I did.

You found no evidence at all!!
How do you go from "a bit more mobile" on an already very slow moving entity to a somersault??

I don't think I'm the one rephrasing things here. Certainly, I have at least provided lore to support my argument, and there is no lore that contradicts the description of Tartarus plate.

Yes there is! Only your your (and ofc Relic's) fantasy version of the armor can somersault.
For most (all?) the rest of us it's the same as any other terminator armor variant except a little bit more mobile.

So we're back to "how many metres high can a Terminator jump". Which is an unanswerable question!

No book has ever made them jump and that's because they barely can if they can already. Why would you ever write that the terminator armor can't jump in a book? Doesn't exactly sounds like an interesting thing to read. From the description alone it should be obvious that they are cumbersome!