Dawn of War 3 EGX Analysis

[Oddnerd]

It's important to remember that the DOW games have survived primarily thanks to the love that most players have for the 40K lore and atmosphere. Compared to extremely well-polished RTS's that companies like Blizzard have made, the DOW games are quite mediocre. The unit pathing is poor, the controls and visual interface are less polished, the balance is not as good, and particularly in the case of DOW2 there are bugs that other companies would have deemed unacceptable and fixed long ago (Imagine the Starcraft e-sports scene if players in high-level tournaments were experiencing sound bugs).

It's the love of 40k lore/atmosphere that has kept the main DOW fanbase interested in the games, so screwing around with that and making a game that has the atmosphere and exaggerated cartoon-like animations of a MOBA is asking for trouble. There is nothing wrong or petty about people asking that their 40k games have fitting visual and audial elements.

I swear, it's like Relic has it's own version of "Correct the Record".

[Gorbles]

Absolutely Oddnerd. But we're also, as 40k fans, allowed to disagree on what is and isn't acceptable. We're also allowed to rationalise variance from the lore by citing both gameplay concerns and also the franchise's history.

Which hasn't exactly been what you'd call precisely lore-adherent. How many Khornate Sorcerors have we had, at this point?

Of course this then resets the discussion back a page or so to "yeah but break too many things and EVERYTHING IS MEANINGLESS", which then circles back to degrees of tolerance and how we all have different levels for that.

So we're back to "how many metres high can a Terminator jump".

The answer is extremely easy, terminators don't jump at all, not even 30 centimeters.

The terminator armor is extremely resistant but it's also incredibly heavy and cumbersome it doesn't enchance movements at all, it restricts them.

Alright. Do we have evidence of them being unable to jump? Because even in the earlier-linked pieces from Lexicanum it doesn't actually state that.

[Ace of Swords]

Absolutely Oddnerd. But we're also, as 40k fans, allowed to disagree on what is and isn't acceptable.

So we're back to "how many metres high can a Terminator jump".

The answer is extremely easy, terminators don't jump at all, not even 30 centimeters.

The terminator armor is extremely resistant but it's also incredibly heavy and cumbersome it doesn't enchance movements at all, it restricts them.

Alright. Do we have evidence of them being unable to jump? Because even in the earlier-linked pieces from Lexicanum it doesn't actually state that.

Do you have any evidence of the contrary?

No of course not because it clearly states the armor is inept in doing acrobatic moves and now you are trying to spin away from your own failure to provide any and I mean ANY kind of source that proves the contrary, in other words the burden of proof is still on you as so far you haven't provided anything of worth beside blind fanboysm.

[Gorbles]

Absolutely Oddnerd. But we're also, as 40k fans, allowed to disagree on what is and isn't acceptable.

The answer is extremely easy, terminators don't jump at all, not even 30 centimeters.

The terminator armor is extremely resistant but it's also incredibly heavy and cumbersome it doesn't enchance movements at all, it restricts them.

Alright. Do we have evidence of them being unable to jump? Because even in the earlier-linked pieces from Lexicanum it doesn't actually state that.

Do you have any evidence of the contrary?

No of course not because it clearly states the armor is inept in doing acrobatic moves and now you are trying to spin away from your own failure to provide any and I mean ANY kind of source that proves the contrary, in other words the burden of proof is still on you as so far you haven't provided anything of worth beside blind fanboysm.

I provided a source. You may disagree with what that source implies, but given that we don't know how much extra mobility it grants, you probably shouldn't make absolute statements like that.

Keep citing burden of proof. I provided proof. This is of course completely ignoring "gameplay before lore" which I've said about four times now. You not wanting to accept my justifications doesn't render them invalid. You have yet to provide anything that backs your own argument on the subject, which is kinda how debates are supposed to work, sorry.

If you disagree with my source, you have to explain instead of either pretending it doesn't exist or just going "lol no".

[Psycho]

To that end, my position was that gameplay always comes before lore - I've said it multiple times.

No. That's not your position at all, don't lie to yourself, and don't lie to everyone here. You have a somersaulting terminator which challenges the lore, and you could've had a teleporting terminator with damage and knockback which does not challenge it and provides the same gameplay, but you defend the former. Both have the same "gameplay" but you defend the one that actively challenges the lore because you want flashier moves or are getting paid to defend relic, and try to spin it like saying that somersaulting terminators are a gameplay improvement over pretty much everything else.

So we're back to "how many metres high can a Terminator jump". Which is an unanswerable question! You don't have an answer. I don't have an answer. I can't think of a single book I've read that gives an answer to that because the 40k universe isn't rooted in hard science at all.

This is coming from the guy who'd support the exact thing you apparently have no answers for over whatever else that could suit BOTH gameplay and lore. No, instead you try to push your argument purely by claiming that there's no reason why the lore should be followed to such an extent. This is the equivalent of suggesting something and only having "Why not?" to back up said suggestion.

40k goes on the rule of cool. That is quite literally the only constant and the only justification for most of the actions made by all of its named characters.

The only thing you're saying here is that you're too creatively sterile to come up with something else that'd have avoided all instances of this argument bullshit in the first place.

If I was getting paid, I certainly wouldn't be here

What logic brings you to this conclusion? If you're getting paid to do something, you better do it instead of wasting funds by going elsewhere.

[Gorbles]

To that end, my position was that gameplay always comes before lore - I've said it multiple times.

No. That's not your position at all, don't lie to yourself, and don't lie to everyone here. You have a somersaulting terminator which challenges the lore, and you could've had a teleporting terminator with damage and knockback which does not challenge it and provides the same gameplay, but you defend the former. Both have the same "gameplay" but you defend the one that actively challenges the lore because you want flashier moves or are getting paid to defend relic, and try to spin it like saying that somersaulting terminators are a gameplay improvement over pretty much everything else.

So we're back to "how many metres high can a Terminator jump". Which is an unanswerable question! You don't have an answer. I don't have an answer. I can't think of a single book I've read that gives an answer to that because the 40k universe isn't rooted in hard science at all.

This is coming from the guy who'd support the exact thing you apparently have no answers for over whatever else that could suit BOTH gameplay and lore. No, instead you try to push your argument purely by claiming that there's no reason why the lore should be followed to such an extent. This is the equivalent of suggesting something and only having "Why not?" to back up said suggestion.

40k goes on the rule of cool. That is quite literally the only constant and the only justification for most of the actions made by all of its named characters.

The only thing you're saying here is that you're too creatively sterile to come up with something else that'd have avoided all instances of this argument bullshit in the first place.

If I was getting paid, I certainly wouldn't be here

What logic brings you to this conclusion? If you're getting paid to do something, you better do it instead of wasting funds by going elsewhere.

So far I've been asked if I get paid for this, and told to stop lying to myself. What do you honestly think you'll gain by this kind of weird attempt at manipulation? I don't think you're as charismatic as you think you are

People have suggested the teleport thing before. It's not a bad suggestion. But it's not the only suggestion. "there are alternative animations that I, Psycho, prefer more" is not a lore-based justification for why Gabriel Angelos cannot jump. If we go with the clarity of gameplay argument that Relic use as justification for a lot of the game we've seen so far (regardless of whether or not you agree with it) then you can make the argument that a physical animation stands out from the existing teleportation of the Assault Terminators. Gabriel has this animation to accentuate the fact that he is a different unit that does different things (crowd control vs. sheer damage output, I think).

I've provided lore justification for why Tartarus plate alone allows for greater mobility than regular Indomitus plate. To further Ace's attempt at "burden of proof", it is now your citation that "but they still cannot jump". You have to prove that. But the lore argument by itself was never my original position. It was something I was challenged to provide a source on, and nothing more than that.

And "creatively sterile", heh. No, the problem here is that you're unable to separate your personal disagreement with my argument (completely fair) with my right to my opinion. You have offered zero counterpoints to the statement that 40k goes by the rule of cool (quick examples: pretty much every Gaunt's Ghost, every single major character by Dan Abnett, Ciaphas Cain who proves the trope by attempting to invert it - repeatedly, most of the honourable Horus Heresy dudes and even most of the major villains before they turned - see Kharn, and so on, and so forth. This wasn't such a quick example but hey citations are good, right?), and instead have opted for the same thing you're accusing me of - "having no answers".

All you're doing is attacking me on a personal level and . . . . hoping I'll bite? Sorry man.

[Dark Riku]

Gorb, you're completely ignoring all evidence. We can't do more than show you. If you chose to ignore it and live in lalaland then so be it.
But don't come here spewing all this bullshit and lies. I can't fathom how you think anything you say about the lore here is true.

You want proof that terminators can't jump? How about all the books that have them walking, teleporting, etc but never jumping?

This is as stupid as saying that you can't disprove the flying spaghetti monster ruling over our existence...

[Psycho]

"there are alternative animations that I, Psycho, prefer more" is not a lore-based justification for why Gabriel Angelos cannot jump.

You're proving my point that all you have in terms of argumentative points is saying "why not" and expecting people to prove you wrong. You want a terminator jumping several times its size while spinning and then have the audacity to claim that there's no justification against it rather than seeking some merit as to why it should be there when it challenges all previously agreed upon capabilities of the one piece of armor descibed as bulky and unmaneuverable to the point entire doctrines had to be designed around that trait.

If we go with the clarity of gameplay argument that Relic use as justification for a lot of the game we've seen so far (regardless of whether or not you agree with it) then you can make the argument that a physical animation stands out from the existing teleportation of the Assault Terminators. Gabriel has this animation to accentuate the fact that he is a different unit that does different things (crowd control vs. sheer damage output, I think).

Terminators, Assault terminators, FC, Terminator FC, even the mekboy, all have the same teleporting animation, and others like the WSE or warp spider squad have a different teleporting animation that is still teleporting. Are they different units? Yes. Do they fullfill the same purposes? Do I even have to answer this one?

So you're challenging the lore to implement a differentiation purely for the sake of differentiation, because apparently your demographic can't tell that two units are different if they have the same teleporting animations, something nobody had a problem with in DoW2.

We're also talking about the choices of the lead dev who said Gabriel can "jump" if whatever he did can be considered a simple mundane "jump" because he had a hammer, almost got killed, and had artificer armor in an interview SECONDS before saying that he wanted to stretch the boundaries of 40k's crazyness and comparing it to missile launchers shaped like pipe organs shooting at tanks.

I've provided lore justification for why Tartarus plate alone allows for greater mobility than regular Indomitus plate.

There it is, the "greater mobility" argument again! Do I have to bring up Dark Riku's argument again only for you to say some nonsensical thing like terminators not having tracks?

To further Ace's attempt at "burden of proof", it is now your citation that "but they still cannot jump".

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour

Ctrl F "Jump" on either page. ZERO results. Where did you read that they can jump? Can you tell me why without bringing up the old tired "why not?" argument you seem to adore?

You have offered zero counterpoints to the statement that 40k goes by the rule of cool

Teleporting isn't cool? Well now, look at the man saying that teleportation with damage and knockback is too mundane and boring for him in his harlequinn circus.

All you're doing is attacking me on a personal level and . . . . hoping I'll bite? Sorry man.

You can't just keep calling everything you have no argument for bait, m8. I shouldn't remind you that you put the ones Riku said disagreed with you in the same group as flat-earthers and scientologists.

[Gorbles]

I didn't at all, I just used them as examples of appeal to popularity. I can't help it if you inferred that. I would've thought this would be the last forum where people claim offense in an argument, my mistake. I thought this was more the "put up or shut up" kind of place. I'd have used religion given how many different faiths exist but that's probably more problematic. Also, my tolerance for Riku is even less than I suspect yours is for me

I could waste more (paid?!) time on how I was talking about attacks on my person, and not your claim that I'm simply incorrect. But it's silly, so I won't. There's nothing wrong with claiming I'm incorrect. You just kinda need to back it up. Circles, we're going in circles!

As for what I "want", I think maybe you need to sit back and think carefully about what you want and how that's somehow more justified. You have absolutely zero proof for Terminators being unable to jump. There isn't even a line that says regular Terminators can't jump. Absence of a statement doesn't prove anything. That isn't logical proof. There is evidence that Tarturus plate allows greater feats of mobility than Indomitus plate. Proof given. No proof given in the reverse.

As for all the different teleportation animations in previous games - yes, they exist. But they weren't made with Relic citing clarity of gameplay. That is unique to DoW III's development methodology. Teleporting can definitely be cool but so's a superhuman with a giant hammer jumping into the air. Again though, this is relatively subjective.

Ah well. We're going in circles and you don't even have the basic decency to respect opinions you disagree with.

[Psycho]

Absence of a statement doesn't prove anything.

You do understand that your entire logic runs on this, right? Your "greater mobility" is vague enough for you to run around saying that terminators can jump purely because there is an absence of a statement regarding to what extect that "greater mobility" applies.

[Gorbles]

Absence of a statement doesn't prove anything.

You do understand that your entire logic runs on this, right? Your "greater mobility" is vague enough for you to run around saying that terminators can jump purely because there is an absence of a statement regarding to what extect that "greater mobility" applies.

Well, yes. I prefer gameplay before lore and various other factors, but that in of itself is a lore-based justification.

Remember, my original post was about the laughable nature of applying hard science to 40k. It doesn't exist within the universe. That's quite literally it.

[Swift]

In the absence of interesting, stimulating and creative content or critique, I deem this thread fucked.

I'm keeping this open only on the basis you can discuss the EGX event/stream and if you can't because you need to spite someone or you have nothing else to say on it, I'll lock it.

Sorry to anyone who genuinely does want to discuss it, this is mainly aimed at the usual suspects.

[Oddnerd]

Remember, my original post was about the laughable nature of applying hard science to 40k. It doesn't exist within the universe. That's quite literally it.

I wouldn't say they are applying hard science by pointing out that somersaulting terminators is asinine - "hard science" would involve disproving warp travel or pointing out that no amount of genetic engineering can make a human being survive the wounds that marines are said to survive.

Every time an argument like this occurs someone shows up to the thread to say that, because the universe has some obvious fantasy elements, that we may as well stop caring about scientific accuracy altogether.... "Oh so in a universe with psychic powers and daemons you are worried about the laws of physics????". Good science-fiction or science-fantasy involves breaking or bending some laws of physics (usually the ones that are not well understood) while leaving others intact. It is perfectly acceptable to have a universe with psychic powers and unrealistic faster-than-light travel, while also demanding that someone wearing a several tonne suit of heavy metal armour not be performing acrobatics.

[Black Relic]

What i want it a game that has gameplay that respect the lore and at least attempts to properly represent it. It is possible you know.

If gabriel threw his hammer into the air, as he does now, teleports to the hammer and then with full weight and hammer slams into the enemy below. That i would be totally ok with. Plus it fits in the flashy and standing out aspect probably better then a jumping terminator and doesn't crap all over the lore.

A decent example would be Tactical Marines getting away to no model losses when under 100 hp. Represents their resilience.

Tyranids large numbers try to represent the endless number of tyranids pushing against a foe and when they break through they are unstoppable.

I could go on but i have to go to work.

It is possible for this. But the fact that relic didn't try to respect it all that much in certain aspects is , in my opinion, not ok.

[Blessed Spartan]

For goodness sake guys this is a joke,
ENOUGH! i made this thread to talk about the analysis and what we know of DOW 3 not if Terminators can jump Necrons and Bloodangels fought together for goodness sake no one cares!

Can we please put this topic back on track honestly its worse than the official forum in here.

[Wise Windu]

^ What he said. Get back on track or I'm locking this. And I'll probably still end up clearing out some posts anyway.