Eldar detection and Destructor

[Forestradio]

Agreeing with Tex on this one.

No one in their right mind builds raptors with howling banshees around. add that to MWB draining energy and WSE entangle, or even just farseer buffed shees, and your heavy armor squad is deader than a slaaneshi cultist in the hands of a khornate bloodthirster

Before the brightlance change, you could rush out a quick crusher and force off the eldar, get map and maybe a bit of power bash if you had noise marines. Now, he can just upgrade his shruikan the second he hits T2.

As for the wraithlord having 100 % accuracy fotm, why?
The thing keeps its splash and deals more heavy melee dps than other ranged walkers.
Plus it can heal in T3. Why can it also absolutely destroy lighter vehicles and harass other walkers?

Tdread upgrade is purely AV, but the WL lance allows too much versatility IMO
Changing the accuracy back to 50 % on the move seems fair.

[Vapor]

I think it would be reasonable to revert the wl bl to 50% fotm but increase the base dps a bit. The chasing potential is the tricky part.

[Caeltos]

Raptors are not in a good spot and I, along with just about every other person who can play chaos at a decent or better level, would be loathe to build them against eldar.

I have to disagree on this.

[dance commander]

I think we're drifting away from the original point here, destructor being too effective against tics, and eldar lacking proper detection.

[Torpid]

Raptors are perfectly fine, you just can't use them as asm and they are far far more niche than asm.

[Lulgrim]

Thread split, carry on with the D.

[Raffa]

Raptors are not in a good spot and I, along with just about every other person who can play chaos at a decent or better level, would be loathe to build them against eldar.

I have to disagree on this.

Please elaborate? Because I would not use Raptors against Eldar by choice. Banshees, farseer buffs, warlock, even double shuri counters Raptors to a degree. That's just in T1.

The concept of the unit is good and they were obviously needed, but something about them is not quite right atm. I am tempted to point the finger at the 65 energy jump, which really impacts their versatility and survivability.

[Tex]

Raptors are not in a good spot and I, along with just about every other person who can play chaos at a decent or better level, would be loathe to build them against eldar.

I have to disagree on this.

Here are my reasons for this statement:

1) Raptor jump costs 65 energy. I don't need to give any details on this, we all know it just doesn't work well. I can definitely appreciate your love for chaos and your mission to not be biased Caeltos...

2) Raptor AC gives 0 squad perks and 0 ability unlocks in t2... when it matters

3) Daemon maul is an overpriced upgrade that likely exists in the wrong tier. For a tier 3 upgrade, it is timid and risky to use.

4) Melta kit is only accessible in t3. I'm not saying the melta guns AND the melta bomb need to be available in t2, but 1 of them likely should be (probably just the melta bomb). All 3 chaos heroes struggle against vehicles inherently (especially in early t2), and having an expensive unit that cannot transition into any form of AV in t2 is really hard to carry over from tier 1 successfully.

5) High upkeep units with low utility generally pay low dividends. I have put these guys in that category and I have largely shelved them from my roster except in very specific matchup situations.

I'm not saying they need all of these things changed to be "in a good spot". But I do think the most important thing for raptors is to have access to soft AV in t2. This would open up more build orders and would take a decent amount of risk involved with using raptors out of the equation.

[dance commander]

4) Melta kit is only accessible in t3. I'm not saying the melta guns AND the melta bomb need to be available in t2, but 1 of them likely should be (probably just the melta bomb). All 3 chaos heroes struggle against vehicles inherently (especially in early t2), and having an expensive unit that cannot transition into any form of AV in t2 is really hard to carry over from tier 1 successfully.

I'm not saying they need all of these things changed to be "in a good spot". But I do think the most important thing for raptors is to have access to soft AV in t2. This would open up more build orders and would take a decent amount of risk involved with using raptors out of the equation.

This was exactly my whole argument about raptors not really fitting in the chaos army some time ago, the answer was simply backtrack to t1 and get a havoc (from caeltos if I remember correctly), really disappointing when you consider no other faction in the game is forced to do so, and plague marines are an expensive unit that alone cannot eliminate the vehicle threat, when in comparison much cheaper (t2) units can very well do so or some t1 units scale much better in the av department, like in the SM case, where hero, tacts and asm upgrades are enough to discourage any sort of vehicle play, especially with the FC, wich renders walkers plays useless.

But yeah raptors not having any soft av upgrade in t2 (with the now gone bloodletter av) is also my main reason for not fielding them, you need to look ahead when playing as chaos, and if you get raptors you're begging for vehicles, then your game becomes a reactionary one, it was the whole reason I was so against the tdread nerf, hilariously i had compared the av of the tdread at the time to the wl bl, the irony, now it's actually worse.

[Maestro Cretella]

At the risk of continuing to keep things off topic, I find Raptors to be something of a novelty purchase and rarely get them in any matchup, let alone against banshees and Eldar heroes. The havoc is generally the go-to power unit purchase in tier 1 for Chaos, and is practically mandatory for the sorcerer in a large number of matchups. Although it can be nice to have the jump capabilities of the Raptor, the effect of countering ranged units is also achieved with a havoc, which is cheaper, can be field earlier, generally bleeds less, and scales better. The havoc also serves as a counter to melee heroes, while Raptors get countered by melee heroes.

In a typical four squad tier 1 for Chaos, a Raptor purchase leaves you in a rather precarious position of having no upgradeable AV in tier 2. So if I were to get a Raptor squad, it might be in an extended, five-squad tier 1 build...but usually if you're going to do that, it's much more practical to get Noise Marines, another tic, or another havoc.

So I'm basically agreeing with what's already been said...except I'm also adding on that I feel this way pretty much regardless of the matchup.

EDIT: Also, Bloodletter passive leap is actually a bit of a downgrade, makes them worse at killing on retreat.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Sorry for the offtopic... I don't know how, but, any thread turns into a Chaos' one

1. I found jump for 65 energy in T1 well. Except CSM, all the T1 chaos units can counter a suppression setup team for themselves, not mention the heroes. But the jump have to have a lower energy cost in T2, or at least in T3, through a upgrade or a passive buff, like the Shoota nob ranged damage increase in T2.

2. At least the Raptor AC have a powerful melee and ranged weapon, something that other AC can't say. Coff coff CSM AC coff coff.

3. Needs a rework, IMHO. This is the fourth? time I said this.

4. I agree. You are almost forced to bought a havoc to have a quick hard AV unit in case of walker rush. Plague Marines are good AV, but I found it more useful against transport rather than walkers.

5. I'm worried more about the high pop cost more than the upkeep cost. Still I have to say that I don't know the Raptors upkeep cost.

ON TOPIC
Now with a perfect placed Destructor the heretics lose 72% of his health, for his Grenade damage type. What about to change it for Plasma_pvp damage? (No cannon_plasma_pvp damage)

With this change, heretics would lose only ~50% of his health instead of 72%, and it would make Destructor more useful against HI/SHI.

[Torpid]

One thing that really scares me atm henever I go chaos vs a WL is destructor + immolate. I mean there's no way to dodge both and it insta wipes any tic squad without a champion so that means that the destructor when the warlock has immolate instantly forces off gl tics even it doesn't kill a model...

[Tex]

You absolutely cannot use grenade launcher heretics against a warlock. Don't even try. You will at the very best bleed tic models like you have never bled before. Your 20 power will be very poorly spent.

[Torpid]

Yup, you're right, I learnt that the hard way. The annoying thing is that GL tics really annihilate the fs/wse. =(

[David-CZ]

Back to rangers, I think the reason why they are not as good detectors as other units is the combination of them being a set-up team, costing power on reinforce and being the sniping type of unit. Personally I'd appreciate if there was another detector unit for Eldar especially in MUs Eldar vs IG (babysitting vehicles as mentioned earlier). Then again I'm far from a good ranger player.

[Torpid]

They have a far larger detection radius than other units however, and a great sight radius and effective combat range meaning they won't ever be forced off unless you do something wrong or they specific jump your rangers.

[Codex]

I think part of the problem is that rangers have a massive potential return for cost but require a lot of care and micro to maximise (not to say that they can't be used well for cost by those who don't maximise them). As a result some people are going to find that rangers do not fit their playstyle, do not pay for themselves during use, but are a forced choice for Eldar to have any hope of countering invisibility.

[Ace of Swords]

As a result some people are going to find that rangers do not fit their playstyle, do not pay for themselves during use, but are a forced choice for Eldar to have any hope of countering invisibility.

Pretty much this, but I would also add that sometimes they are completely unneccessary (which is a different thing from beign useless) but still a major annoyance to get them ONLY for detection.

[Codex]

They can be completely unnecessary other than for detection, but I would argue if used correctly their utility should more than compensate for the lack of actual combat duty it will see.

[Tex]

They can be completely unnecessary other than for detection, but I would argue if used correctly their utility should more than compensate for the lack of actual combat duty it will see.

+1