Ork Topic

[Dark Riku]

The shoota nob also increases their upkeep and slows down their tech rate.

It's not exactly a free dmg boost. The squad just reverts back to their old dps.
The nob's dps got nerfed since it was too high for t1, like it is in retail.
Now the dps is a little more spread over the models so if you make them bleed they actually lose some dps unlike retail where you pretty much have enough with the nob and 2 shoota models alone.

[Torpid]

5 speed also isn't mobile as hell, bearing in mind again, termagants are speed 6.

[saltychipmunk]

yeah alot of peeps seem to forget how extremely expensive the shoota boys squad upgrades are.

once all is said and done , they are around 400 req and 45 power and like 15 pop. that isnt all that far from what it costs to get the jump units that counter them.

I admit it is quite an advantage to be able to get not one but two solid general combat upgrades on a ranged unit in t1. An option that most other races are lucky to get one of while most usually are saddled with side grades instead of out right upgrades.

makes the orks very flexible.

[Forestradio]

shootas are a unit that if you invest in them, it really pays off.
No different from plenty of other T1 squads.
yeah, they do insane dps, but it isn't nearly as OP as it was in retail, and it requires t2 to get the full dps.
As for them being detectors, not really sure what other ork unit you could make a detector in T1.

[Lag]

shootas are a unit that if you invest in them, it really pays off.
No different from plenty of other T1 squads.
yeah, they do insane dps, but it isn't nearly as OP as it was in retail, and it requires t2 to get the full dps.
As for them being detectors, not really sure what other ork unit you could make a detector in T1.

As I said - I'd keep them as detectors, but make detection a different upgrade.
Or make them bleed power with the Nob upgrade so it not a win-win-win upgrade.

[MyMe]

Isn't the point of upgrades supposed to be a "win" situation? Aside from a few exceptions where the upgrade may be considered a "sidegrade," the point of upgrades is to make your army better at the cost of resources, not somehow be a hindrance. Unless you're just saying that the upgrade gives too much for 25 power per squad. While I might see that point, where else would the detection even go? Stormboyz? Painboy? I'd rather not see another upgrade for detection on shootas, it's already 45 power to fully upgrade each squad, and they need at the very least 20 of it spent in t1 to be of any use.

[Lag]

Isn't the point of upgrades supposed to be a "win" situation? Aside from a few exceptions where the upgrade may be considered a "sidegrade," the point of upgrades is to make your army better at the cost of resources, not somehow be a hindrance. Unless you're just saying that the upgrade gives too much for 25 power per squad. While I might see that point, where else would the detection even go? Stormboyz? Painboy? I'd rather not see another upgrade for detection on shootas, it's already 45 power to fully upgrade each squad, and they need at the very least 20 of it spent in t1 to be of any use.

It is too good of an upgrade for 25 power, is all I am saying. I wouldn't change detection to another unit, just not make it a part of something which is already great, or not making that great so great.

[Forestradio]

Isn't the point of upgrades supposed to be a "win" situation? Aside from a few exceptions where the upgrade may be considered a "sidegrade," the point of upgrades is to make your army better at the cost of resources, not somehow be a hindrance. Unless you're just saying that the upgrade gives too much for 25 power per squad. While I might see that point, where else would the detection even go? Stormboyz? Painboy? I'd rather not see another upgrade for detection on shootas, it's already 45 power to fully upgrade each squad, and they need at the very least 20 of it spent in t1 to be of any use.

It is too good of an upgrade for 25 power, is all I am saying. I wouldn't change detection to another unit, just not make it a part of something which is already great, or not making that great so great.

How much would this upgrade cost on the shootas?
other races pay this for their detector unit
Chaos: 25 power
Spesh Mehreens: 25 power
Eldar: thirty power
GK: 15 power
IG: either 40 power (cats) or however much power spotters cost (25?????)
Nids: 25 power

why should orks be penalized just for having a good squad leader who is versatile?

[Lag]

You missed a few spots. Let me help you out.

Chaos: 25 power and usually first to retreat, susceptible to improvised explosives, mines etc. even though they detect (because they have to close in melee to be able to auto-attack them). You actually have to micro with them and another unit to sort out half the things you need detection for.
Spesh Mehreens: 25 power easily focused and also usually first to retreat, also not so much a straight fighting unit as it is capping, so quite often you will see it away from the action.
Eldar: thirty power, often useless as it is very situational (VS IG for example), bleeds power.
GK: 15 power I agree about this one - I mentioned earlier that their Sarge upgrade is also too op and in league with the Nob upgrade.
IG: either 40 power (cats) or however much power spotters cost (25?????), both bleed you power, both transfer badly into t2 more often than not.
Nids: 25 power bleed you power and give you good reason to focus them first because of synapse, and have the same problem of running into mines and improvised explosives because they are melee.

What exactly is the Ork Nob's problem? They don't bleed you power, they are not melee, they are not a scouting unit but the main fighting unit, they are just as hard to fend off as Warriors or Catas (who bleed you power) and you will more often than not have two of them and not just one (unlike Rangers, or Catas, who - again - bleed you power). Not only that but they gain ADDITIONAL dps in t2 which enables them alone, along a single T2 unit to support them (WB or WT), to grant you a safe passage straight to T3. Let me see double Tics/Warriors/Catas/Scouts do that.

[Arbit]

I'm confused why you're saying melee detectors are susceptible to mines/IEDs. Yes, they can't destroy the mine but they can walk right over it without harm. IEDs you can avoid and clean up later. They invalidate the strategy of using mines/IEDs to protect against a melee flank. Warriors will be right behind the horms so they can spot the mines.

On the flip side, shootas aren't very good at spotting mines for their slugga brethren because they sit too far behind the sluggas.

And someone already mentioned the "ADDITIONAL" dps in T2 was added at the same time their overall dps was nerfed...

Finally, if your spotters/rangers are bleeding, ur doin it wrong.

[Torpid]

Don't be ridiculous, shootas with shoota nob are way way easier to force off than either warriors or catachans, especially catachans. Look, all the units who get detection serve their own roles, just because they aren't as up front about their combat capabilities doesn't mean they suck. I often get a scout sergeant even when I know there is no need for detection just because he grants a frag grenade primarily, and then the extra hp too. What orks get for that 25 power investment is fair to their race, high damage and good chasing potential, but that's about it.

We can list pros and cons of detectors all day, but doing so is really a waste of time, however just to illustrate watch:
Chaos: 25 power, fragile by default but a very important support unit to the chaos armour due to it being used for worship support, counter-initiation, soft anti-suppression, anti-garrison and repair support, hence the detector upgrade is a bit too strong considering how much more durable and therefore better at all these roles it makes the tics while simultaneously providing them with a good detection unit. I mean, chaos can't really forgo these ACs, they will always get at least one.

Eldar: Rangers are fantastic in every matchup, the ability to pressurise your foe into attacking you or losing ground is great no matter who you are fighting. Kinetic pulse synergises well with many eldar abilities -> grenades, shees, psychic storm, autarch bomb drop etc. Rangers also act as anti-garrison and provide utility through cloaking all your units even vehicles. Furthermore they are also extremely helpful vs IG since they apply tonnes of pressure onto their sentinels so that they have to devote GM capping time to repair time. Therefore, when compared to the relative effectiveness and cost of other dectectors such as catachans who cost 60 power, rangers are too good for their 40 power detector role, they need a separate upgrade.

cba anymore but I hope you get the point. Shootas are a very one dimensional unit they can do two things: Shoot and use AWD. The shoota nob only actually helps them do one thing and that's the former.

[Forestradio]

was going to reply, but Torpid and Arbit beat me to it.
+1 to everything they said.

[Lag]

You have two Shootas, and always one Cata, so yes, it is easier to force off Catas than Shootas, especially with double Shootas . You often see double Warriors, yes, but again - BOTH WILL BLEED YOU POWER AND DELAY T1 AND T2 WHEN SHOT DOWN! How everyone keeps missing this is beyond me. Orks OPness lies in having an amazing t2 and t3, and having to buy only one unit from both tiers to dominate the map (WB, WT, Nobz) while getting there quickly because all you need to pass t1 doesn't bleed you power!

As for the other unit comparison - you gave me an example saying "these units can do other things" while I am explaining why they don't fare as well as detectors for the money.
As for Tics - worship? Far in the back, don't detect. Up in front? First to be shooed off. Walk over mines? Sure, but the mine stays there. I am talking about having to manage it when you want to kill the mine (which you will in 90% of cases) and not just attack-move. You can hope to get a insta-gib on a Tic squad with Improvised Explosives on a detector Tic squad. You can't dream of that against Shootas.
As for Rangers - there is a good reason why there is tons of discussion about this subject on a topic dedicated to it. You love to theorycraft, I know, but theorycraft and actual practice don't go along that often. I am talking from experience of playing Ork. Rangers just underperform in a good many situations (otherwise they would be seen a bit more often in games), and even fail as detectors (which is the point of this discussion) because they are so far behind and bleed you power.

As for Sluggas getting raped by invisible stuff because they go in front - who is controlling these Sluggas? 1. They are either a capping squad in T1 or 2. they stick close to the army when engaging cause of Waaagh.

[Kvek]

Have you ever used Rangers ? They are the best sniper unit in the game.
Kinetic pulse+Destructor= dead tics, then you can use Holo Field to support shees/DA
And they have even more uses, but i won't list them now :p

Lag you should try Eldar in a 1v1 :p

[Lag]

I mained Eldar after Ork (while I was still playing 1v1).

[Kvek]

I mained Eldar after Ork (while I was still playing 1v1).

Then how can you say that rangers are bad ?

[Arbit]

You have two Shootas, and always one Cata, so yes, it is easier to force off Catas than Shootas, especially with double Shootas . You often see double Warriors, yes, but again - BOTH WILL BLEED YOU POWER AND DELAY T1 AND T2 WHEN SHOT DOWN! How everyone keeps missing this is beyond me. Orks OPness lies in having an amazing t2 and t3, and having to buy only one unit from both tiers to dominate the map (WB, WT, Nobz) while getting there quickly because all you need to pass t1 doesn't bleed you power!

I don't really want to touch this because you're bringing all sorts of issues up now (amazing* T2 & T3, they dominate the map with one unit from T2/T3 each), but, no one's main fighting unit bleeds power like that. Ork T1.5 units bleed power (lootas, storms), just like everyone else's.

* I submit this word be banned for being extra hyperbole-iffic. I'm only half joking.

As for Sluggas getting raped by invisible stuff because they go in front - who is controlling these Sluggas? 1. They are either a capping squad in T1 or 2. they stick close to the army when engaging cause of Waaagh.

Who is controlling the AC tics that walk over an IED and get instagibbed? Why can sluggas afford to hug their shootas and yet your hypothetical AC tics/warriors never seem to have any ranged units around to clear the mines?

[Lag]

I mained Eldar after Ork (while I was still playing 1v1).

Then how can you say that rangers are bad ?

Rangers are situational. If you don't need Rangers at the moment (which you don't, more often than not) it is a bit expensive for a unit that you need solely for it's detecting capability. In this they differ a lot from Shootas who you will have anyway and can just upgrade them for a measly 25 power to get a req-only beast of an upgrade which increases endurance and damage, and gives you detection.

I've said everything I had on the topic. Won't argue anymore because it's become pointless. This is not a "I SAID MY THING AND IT IS FINAL" but I have already answered everything that is thrown at me as counter-arguments, and I am just repeating myself. I love arguing on the internet, people just take a snippet of your argument and base their counter-argument on it. Read the whole thing bitte.

For example:

I don't really want to touch this because you're bringing all sorts of issues up now (amazing* T2 & T3, they dominate the map with one unit from T2/T3 each), but, no one's main fighting unit bleeds power like that. Ork T1.5 units bleed power (lootas, storms), just like everyone else's.

I've been playin Ork a lot lately. The only thing I can say is - Shootas are still stupidly OP, and so is the Painboy. They still transition to T3 with only one unit purchase in T2, and their t3 is amazing. This is the only concern I have with this race.
I would honestly still go with lowering Shoota speed with Nob purchased to reduce their attack-move-kill-everything potential, not to mention the fact that their detection is still broken: using invisible stuff is pretty much pointless against Ork because he will always have Shootas and getting detection is easy as spending some req and power that is very useful anyway. Yes, this is present with other races as well (SM, Chaos), but you can easily shoo them off (Scouts) or are melee so can't deal with improvised explosives and similar stuff without at least some micro (Tics). Other races have to purchase a whole different unit which might not be a part of their build just to get detection. This is the main reason Ork can go double Shoota into T2 - they serve all purposes. I have no idea how to solve this problem other than to make detection a third upgrade which serves only that purpose and is not that cheap.

I am not bringing all sorts of issues up NOW. They were brought up right from the beginning and you chose to ignore them.

Who is controlling the AC tics that walk over an IED and get instagibbed? Why can sluggas afford to hug their shootas and yet your hypothetical AC tics/warriors never seem to have any ranged units around to clear the mines?

or are melee so can't deal with improvised explosives and similar stuff without at least some micro (Tics).

So with Shootas you can look away because they will stop and fire with attack/move when they see an IE, Tics will run straight into it and potentially instagibbed. Even if you see it in time, you have to bring them back and focus with CSM. Why is this important? Because you spend time managing that situation and waiting before you can move through, while Shootas just move-shoot through it - all in a game where every second, and every spent action makes a huge difference.

I'll stop now. At least read the discussion from the start if you want to participate. Don't just barge in through the middle of it and ignore everything that has already been said, because it is just running in circles and not getting anywhere.

[Torpid]

You have two Shootas, and always one Cata, so yes, it is easier to force off Catas than Shootas, especially with double Shootas . You often see double Warriors, yes, but again - BOTH WILL BLEED YOU POWER AND DELAY T1 AND T2 WHEN SHOT DOWN! How everyone keeps missing this is beyond me. Orks OPness lies in having an amazing t2 and t3, and having to buy only one unit from both tiers to dominate the map (WB, WT, Nobz) while getting there quickly because all you need to pass t1 doesn't bleed you power!

As for the other unit comparison - you gave me an example saying "these units can do other things" while I am explaining why they don't fare as well as detectors for the money.
As for Tics - worship? Far in the back, don't detect. Up in front? First to be shooed off. Walk over mines? Sure, but the mine stays there. I am talking about having to manage it when you want to kill the mine (which you will in 90% of cases) and not just attack-move. You can hope to get a insta-gib on a Tic squad with Improvised Explosives on a detector Tic squad. You can't dream of that against Shootas.
As for Rangers - there is a good reason why there is tons of discussion about this subject on a topic dedicated to it. You love to theorycraft, I know, but theorycraft and actual practice don't go along that often. I am talking from experience of playing Ork. Rangers just underperform in a good many situations (otherwise they would be seen a bit more often in games), and even fail as detectors (which is the point of this discussion) because they are so far behind and bleed you power.

As for Sluggas getting raped by invisible stuff because they go in front - who is controlling these Sluggas? 1. They are either a capping squad in T1 or 2. they stick close to the army when engaging cause of Waaagh.

Rangers never ever bleed more than the units they are shooting at with the exception of the nid/ig MU, but against IG their sentinel pressure is still worthwhile. Honestly, I will go against the meta on the topic of snipers. Both rangers and scout snipers are highly underused and extremely useful units which I don't think the current meta has learnt to appreciate. Also the detection range for rangers is far higher than that of the other races to make up for the fact that they are snipers, plus they can infiltrate for free basically.

Regarding tics I don't know how close you need to get your units to the enemy army in order to detect, tics only have this being forced off issue vs the WL/sorceror, since in any other situation they can simply stay JUST behind your army, detecting melee or grenade throws or they can be on the peripheries detecting ninja-cappers. Only against the WL where you can be forced off way too easily, or against the sorc where you need to detect armies is what you said an

Frankly ork OP lies in their weirdboy and their painboy as a pair. I'm trying to imagine what orks would be like if we took away the webo and the pb and made the DD cost what it did in retail... Useless? But that's probably because of the shoota nerfs and that's probably why the pb was added, as well as to help the knob vs asm and such. Shootas are power expensive. Catachans don't really bleed you power, you only lose 2 at the maximum per massive engagement and orks are a race with little power expenditure anyway; they're really req heavy and so the req loss from the shootas is way more pivotal to winning vs them.

[Forestradio]

Lag, if you micro rangers properly and use holofields/infiltrate, they will almost never bleed you anything.

Other really good shooty units that don't bleed power?
Tcsm for one. Tcsm have the best anti-infantry damage type availible, but no one is complaining about that.
Sternguard veterans: these guys are a soft counter to everything in the game, and their hellfire rounds are freaking awesome for bleeding models and gunning down commanders
As for the 2x shoota squad argument, they are still countered by suppression, teleport, jumping commanders, etc. No grenade abilities, disruption, or power melee like catachans, and no buffs like warriors or rangers. You're paying 45 power on a unit for one thing: drowning your enemy's infantry in a hail of bullets. Detection is just a bonus.

No different from any other ranged unit.

[Arbit]

I am not bringing all sorts of issues up NOW. They were brought up right from the beginning and you chose to ignore them.

Sorry, I guess the word "now" was poorly chosen. What I meant is, I didn't want to engage with the idea that orks as a race are OP overall and would rather limit my comments to shootas and the idea that orks don't bleed power, which they do from their T1.5 units, something that you didn't address BTW.

Who is controlling the AC tics that walk over an IED and get instagibbed? Why can sluggas afford to hug their shootas and yet your hypothetical AC tics/warriors never seem to have any ranged units around to clear the mines?

or are melee so can't deal with improvised explosives and similar stuff without at least some micro (Tics).

So with Shootas you can look away because they will stop and fire with attack/move when they see an IE, Tics will run straight into it and potentially instagibbed. Even if you see it in time, you have to bring them back and focus with CSM. Why is this important? Because you spend time managing that situation and waiting before you can move through, while Shootas just move-shoot through it - all in a game where every second, and every spent action makes a huge difference.

I'm almost entirely sure that landmines and IEDs are not autotargeted. You have to manually target them the way nodes should be working now.

Again, why are you assuming that shootas and sluggas are going to be right next to each other, but you have to "bring back" CSM to shoot the mine/IED? Tics and CSM still have to work together even though they have no waagh bonus, and CSM can benefit from worship.

I'll stop now. At least read the discussion from the start if you want to participate. Don't just barge in through the middle of it and ignore everything that has already been said, because it is just running in circles and not getting anywhere.

I was the first one to respond to you in this topic. I was actually on board with a minor nerf to shootas (removing FoTM).

[Lulgrim]

I'm almost entirely sure that landmines and IEDs are not autotargeted. You have to manually target them the way nodes should be working now.

LUL I guarantee you would notice if they were auto-targeted... What would happen to an unit standing right on / next to one when some detectors showed up, for example? Or what would the IG mine drop global do to an army...

[Dark Riku]

I want to discuss the Weirdboy. To be blunt, he is too good.

He offers the Orks so much abilities while also being a ~mobile little pdev/blastmaster~
[1/2 dmg - 2/3 time needed to fire]. Which without other abilities is awesome already.

Warp Vomit is just way too good and it's one of his 2 starting abilities.
A whopping 10 second AoE stun with kb and some minor dmg
that also makes the affected units receive 20% more dmg.

Suggested change: Duration shortened to 5-6 secs. Does not kb the units anymore.
This will make your units at least be able to retreat out of it without being on their asses swarmed by melee trying to get up first.
Maybe even remove/decrease the 20% increased dmg? They are already stunned.
Why do they need to take more dmg in the meantime too? It's not like Ork DPS is low.

Warpath does a whole lot in 1 ability too.
In radius 20: 20% dmg reduction (same as Ard Boys), +2 speed, +15% melee dmg,
Weirdboy regenerates courage x5 faster while active.

Suggested change: Reduce or remove the +15% melee dmg that was added in Elite.
Reduce received dmg modifier to 15%.

Foot of Gork can just delete the suppression team you needed so much.
Unless your first reaction is to retreat you won't make it out.
Because when de-setting up you can't enter retreat mode.

Suggested change: Make it do less dmg than it does now. 225>= the amount of health suppression team members have at level one. [except Lootas] I'd go with ~150 dmg.
Change the dmg type to autocannon_pvp so that havocs and devs at least stand
a chance at full health. Reduce energy cost to 650 from 750 and cd to 70 from 90.
Reduce power cost of Warphead by 5.


I would also like to discuss Lootas.
Any reason why they have more health than all the other setup-teams?
Since Elite they have become a very nice setupteam still with their own trait in that they can infiltrate. They really don't need more health than the rest anymore.

Suggested change: Reduce HP to 675 from 750. (Like any other setupteam bar IG.)

[Vapor]

Riku I agree for the most part but I would like to say:

(1) Foot of Gork is certainly a powerful ability but it has a fairly long cool down, and requires a shitload of energy to use - I think 750, which means you have to cast waagh near your weirboy like 4 times every time if you want to use it right when the cooldown wears off. Of course it's not like the waagh is wasted when you do this but it's a cost to consider. The upgrade also costs 35 power, although it does come with a health/energy buff iirc. Also the ability does very little damage on retreat. IMO it's fine but I would like to hear other opinions.

(2) We could try giving warp vomit the standard ork stun of 7 seconds, with no debuff.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

making it affect everything in radius, not just enemies would be a start

[Dark Riku]

Riku I agree for the most part but I would like to say:

(1) Foot of Gork is certainly a powerful ability but it has a fairly long cool down, and requires a shitload of energy to use - I think 750, ... The upgrade also costs 35 power, although it does come with a health/energy buff iirc. ....

Cooldown could go down too then, good point. I edited my original post with it.
All your other concerns, marked in bold for your convenience, were already addressed in my original post:

Reduce energy cost to 650 from 750.
Reduce power cost of Warphead by 5.

And no, the upgrade "only" comes with +500 energy.
His 2 other upgrades come with +15% and +25% health though.

[Tex]

I think lootas have higher HP because they have infantry armor while every other setup team has heavy armor or damage sharing.

In regards to the weirdboy, I am willing to make 2 concessions. First, I think his default attack could get a knockback and damage radius reduction. Second, I would be willing to suffer a price increase up to 400-50 if the foot of gork upgrade got a price decrease to to 80-25.

Warp vomit is a pretty integral part of how orks counter T3 compositions with their T2 if forced into this very shitty situation. I'm loathe to let anything happen to this ability other than have it's energy cost raised.

I completely disagree with the notion of zzap being better than smite. Both abilities are great, and they serve their purposes differently. Smite strikes down single targets OR blobs, while zzap does nothing to single targets while it wrecks un-microed blobs.

Over'dere is an incredibly hard ability to use efficiently, just to note.

As far as I knew, warpath grants 20% resistance to ranged damage, not all damage. Has it been changed or is this a mistake?

[Dark Riku]

In regards to the weirdboy, I am willing to make 2 concessions. First, I think his default attack could get a knockback and damage radius reduction. Second, I would be willing to suffer a price increase up to 400-50 if the foot of gork upgrade got a price decrease to to 80-25.

His default attack isn't the problem imo.
Would still make Foot of Gork wipe stuff without problems for the same cost.

Warp vomit is a pretty integral part of how orks counter T3 compositions with their T2 if forced into this very shitty situation. I'm loathe to let anything happen to this ability other than have it's energy cost raised.

That would be great and all if warp vomit wasn't used vs T1-2 units. And how is that even fair vs T3 units? It's like the librarian or autarch countering nobs by default ...
No other race gets anything as powerful like this when stuck in T2.

As far as I knew, warpath grants 20% resistance to ranged damage, not all damage. Has it been changed or is this a mistake?

link Hasn't been changed since retail other than added the 15% more melee dmg.
And -10 starting energy cost.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

The damage increase of Warp Vomit it's unnecessary IMHO. The ability not only knockbacks, which is useful in general against all squads, but the stuns makes the ability scale very well in T3 against Terminators and CL/BC/HT.

Also, the ability lasts 10 seconds and makes no friendly fire.

If we have in mind the damage that Orks are capable to do, and the only squad that could justify the damage increase (Shoota boyz) have a passive damage increase in T2 when they have the Nob Leader, I can't find necessary that debuff.

[Kvek]

Make vomit affect friendly units, so he can't just vomit his own shootas when asm jump em.