Mekboy Big Shoota and Stikkbomma Melee Skill Balance

[Torpid]

On the proposal to make the Mekboy Dakka Dakka Dakka (big shoota) go from 100/20 to 100/25 I say:

"It's a good weapon, but, this change is actually huge. I feel I might be a bit biased because I love the mek and love abusing him. In some MUs like eldar getting the big shoota ASAP on him is the best thing ever so you can bleed those DAs as fast as possible. Same with vsing other orks. And I feel like that's a really key thing about the mek beating those MUs and that the dakka dakka dakka is certainly not worth 25 power in late t1 or 20 power even in early t1 vs most other races such as IG, SM, CSM and nids... I'm gonna have to ask some orks.

Also, do we want to do anything with his deffgun? That thing is kinda weird to be blunt."

I wanted to raise this with the forum in general. For me the change to 25 power for this weapon is like changing the LCs power sword to 25 power. It's a HUGE change. Do we get similar feelings of "wow this thing is so pressuring for that cheap 20 power" when we consider the mekboy's big shoota? Should it be nerfed in cost? How about keeping cost similar but giving a small dps decrease so you can still get it early and bleed models vs eldar/orks but it isn't quite as punishing all throughout T1 for that cheap initial sunk cost?




Additionally I wanted to raise a discussion about stikkbomma's melee skill. Generally I believe it is a good principle to maintain unique and interesting attributes of uniques where possible. The fact that stikks can be somewhat viably used in melee combat in tandem with a slugga squad to absolutely obliterate other melee is an interesting attribute this artillery unique has!

But, does it impede on balance too much to the extent that we should remove it? I wanted to bring it down from 80 to 70 so it wasn't quite so overwhelming vs T2 melee. Do people feel this is okay to concede? Or are they any other suggestions of what we could do, perhaps we could keep their MS high but nerf them in a different way to compensate. It has to be noted they are the cheapest artillery squad to buy in req and also the cheapest squad to buy in terms of power out of all those that do cost power, then being 360/20.

Thoughts?

[boss]

Yea the big shoota is to cheap for a damage buff and more range to on a teleport hero it a no brainer to get in all matchups I always get this over the deffgun so 100/25 should help to fix this.
Also the battery pack should go up in cost to teleport hero with heal is but to cheap 120rec 25 power should make the cost fine.

Stikkbomma idk I don't get them in 1s in long time don't think their worth it better stuff to get tbh like trukks, deffs, weirdboy, upgrades, stikk are like my last thing to help me win games thay only work in 2 squads as well high melee skill don't really help them dat much. nerfs them if you want I don't get them anyways

[Crewfinity]

i would rather see a big shoota req increase than a power increase. maybe making it 120/20 instead of 100/25...
It's very powerful for the cost, but increasing the power will really hurt his timings in my opinion.

[boss]

i would rather see a big shoota req increase than a power increase. maybe making it 120/20 instead of 100/25...
It's very powerful for the cost, but increasing the power will really hurt his timings in my opinion.

That's the point of the cost increase 20 rec does nothing and a waste of time 5 more power wont make it weak just not cheap

[Broodwich]

No on sticks getting ms nerf, they are rarely used in that situation and it does give some reward for creative play

[Adeptus Noobus]

In my opinion there is nothing "creative" about a unit that specials every other melee oriented unit in the game apart from genestealers and ofc enemy stikks simply because of their absurd meleeskill.

[Crewfinity]

Imo the melee skill on stikks is a nice attribute that helps them stay internally competitive with the weird boy (since they fIll very similar roles (ranged artillery with some melee support). It's not like they do a ton of melee damage either, they just have a high knock back special. If people think it's a big problem I'd rather see their ms nerfed to 75 instead of 70. Having a high chance of specials is the only thing that allows them to stikk around in melee.

[Tex]

Dakka x3... only way to know is to increase power cost by 5 and then re-evaluate from there.

Stikkbommas will be a 100% novelty purchase if their melee skill is taken away. They struggle from massive internal competition, as well as not complimenting ork composition very well in their timing slot.
I think stikkbommas were filling a pretty unique role of bodyguarding your shootas by having such high melee skill. I would prefer for them to keep 75 melee skill, but then have their ordnance and price adjusted. I would like to see stikkbommas req price come down, and have them be focused more on disruption and less on damage. I feel like combined with the high melee skill, this should help to give them a proper theme and role, rather than compete so heavily with the wartruck and weirdboy.

So now that my thinking has been laid out, lets get some numbers on the board:
-stikkbommas cost reduced to 330-20 from 360-20
-stikkbommas melee skill reduced to 75 from 80
-stikkbomb damage reduced to max 35 from max 55.
-stunbomb global cost reduced to 3 per model from 5 per model
-stunbomb cooldown reduced to 16 seconds from 30 seconds
-stun duration on infantry reduced to 5 seconds from 7 seconds

In conclusion here, I feel like making these changes would accomplish:
a) Stikkbommas have reduced melee skill, but still retain the ability to disrupt dedicated melee squads
b) Prohibitive cost in terms of internal competition has been reduced (weirdboy ---> anti-everything utility --- wartrukk ---> SUT counter)
c) Certain issues with unit design have been changed to provide a more clear and less internally competitive role (weirdboy is better all around at countering garrisons, vehicles, setup teams, and providing general utility, --- wartrukk is much cheaper, doesn't bleed, doesn't use red, and provides a vehicle armor element that forces investment to counter)
To be specific, by reducing the cooldown on stunbombs, and making them less costly to use, stikkbommas would now be in a position to be a much higher overall utility unit because they can control fights much more frequently with their stun grenades, and will be a much better transitional purchase in terms of countering vehicles. Orks already have massive damage output, and now stikkbommas can be the unit that helps to facilitate this, instead of simply providing another way to wipe squads.

Thoughts?

[Broodwich]

I like it, except i wouldn't be quite so drastic with the damage reduction and stun cool down right off the bat. I think more like 40 dmg and 20 seconds would be a better place to start

PS, i also like crew's pun

[Cyris]

I agree with everything Tex said. Less spike damage on the nades, more focus on CC and addressing internal ork balance. I don't think unit cost reduction is as necessary with other changes, and I have no opinion on the red costs changing.