Kvn wrote:I would like to take a moment to apologize if I sounded harsh in my previous comments. Life's been pretty busy lately. Not an excuse, I know, but just wanted to say that. Anyway:
No need to apologize mate, to be honest you werent even harsh, in the first place the way i used my words made me look like an "Angry joe plays DoW II retribution elite mod rant", especially i connect whit you whit the part of life, prety busy and it had some part about it for me into getting pissed at DA in one point, neither an excuse for me for going Q_Q.
The Great Kenny wrote:[
"If you want to counter a setup team, you need to come in from three different angles" Thats the point i wanted to get, however, most of the times, the unit gets focused, sadly this part i cant blame the player nor the unit, since the DoW II system, i dont know if it is intended or just bad programming, HW squad usually loves to waste an entire volley on the first unit they see (The bait avengers in this case), those avengers insta retreat while the others had activated fleet of food, most of times i end up hitting the X button or i just have to de- set up unit, however there comes a part where i have to give you the point, when i am playing against a farseer (Whit any race, not just imperial guard), it's incredibly easy to over bleed it's DA unless i fail to realize about the other squads coming whit FoF just in time and ultimately my HW gets nadedd whit a first one and then gets wiped out whit the second one, when it comes to warp spiders exarchs, and warlocks, basically is just a pain in the ass to use HWT, and in that part DA doesnt even need to invest so much in battle equipment since the Warp spider exarch is a natural anti HWT, while the warlock.... Huh that sword whit inmolate is just too bloody strong vs HWT whit infantry armour, at least whit space marine devs and chaos havocs i give the middle finger to this ability. I do give you the point to you in there when you go into the micro intensive, but lets consider that not everyone we have finantial freedom or the time to milk hours from multiplayer. Usually this kind of plays happens from ppl that has most matches, or just milks eldar all the time. So i cant complain so much about FoF or the battle equipment in here, however i do think that it is still a good way to deal whit Set up teams since eldar players doesnt seem to like the new rangers. And thanks for the idea, i really need to save a replay, since i understand that i am not making myself understandable whit words.
Kvn wrote:Yeah, that situation is something that comes with getting used to playing against Eldar. They don't have a traditional anti-setup unit (especially now that Rangers do almost no damage) so they instead have a kind of mix between DA grenades, Gates for mobility, and hero abilities to strike the final nail in the coffin. The trick comes from supporting your Heavy Weapons Teams. In T1, they're not going to be great, as they are more of a soft counter zoning tool rather than the direct blob counter that they area against most races. The anti-DA damage is more on your Sentinel who can provide constant bleed with Guardsmen repair to keep him in the fight for a very long time. When the enemy switches focus, it comes down to a micro-dance between players, and the one who pulls it off best is the one who bleeds the enemy the hardest. It can be quite difficult if you're not used to it, but it's one of those things that everybody has to go through while improving. If you think the enemy is moving in with a grenade, my advice would be to keep your army nearby to support, HWT to focus one squad, Guardsmen to shoot down another, and Sent and/or hero to focus and stomp/melee the final one. If he commits, you have the opportunity to bleed him quite a bit, and if he doesn't, you're in the position to take the fight to him instead. Just be cautious while moving up, as he'll probably be waiting to catch you out of position.
I agree and disagree in some parts in this, yes, how a fire fight ends up it toatlly depends on your ability to micro even if you have/or you are against OP units, the micro is an important aspect of this game, the part i kind of disagree is that, well IG is half forgiving for players that doesnt have much experience in the game, eldar in the other hand, is ULTRA unforgiving for players that doesnt have much experience whit the game, or even the race itself, so in one way i do agree that eldar requires time and patience to learn and play them at their full or half potential, now, if you are REALLY experience whit IG you will pretty much be an annoyance, but in early engagements IG squad wipe potential is poor unless they have a commissar or a lord general to finish off single models whit very low HP, the sentinel of course IS GREAT for this too, but it is just poor when it comes to wipe 2 models in retreat, experienced eldar players in the other hand will of course have to micro a lot, but they have a lot of options of wipe potential, especially if you are using banshees, i am not saying that the DA are squad wipers, the same rule applies whit them like whit the GM, pretty much they cant do much about probably the DA having a slight adventage on the firepower and speed to wipe out a retreating unit whit ranged weapons.
The Great Kenny wrote:Well if you put shields right in a place where you know that the enemy will stay or camp then, yes, they can totally use the shields. However i am talking about eldar whit decent and good experience that usually uses the shields on your power farms where you will basically end up not using since you secure it, and then you focus, on the vps that will surely, for logical reasons, are going to be deployed close to the eldar spawn, not from where the enemy player troops come from.
Kvn wrote:True, however, the shields are only useful to the Eldar player once he's reached that critical point, and only when they have time to go up. Since they can't be put up in the middle of a firefight (stray shots destroy them since they have 0 hp in that first second) they need to have some room to breathe. Countering this comes down to general awareness and game decisions. If he does get up in your power and you can't move him, it might be best to go for his instead. Either he'll have to pull back to push you away, or you'll trade gen farms which will usually be to your advantage since IG have some potent power-free units in ST whereas all Eldar units past early T1 are heavy on the power cost.
Yeah, i agree whit that too, however the shield is also pretty fast to deploy, so basically you see a red dot and you just get your DA to work on deploying the shield.
The Great Kenny wrote:Depends on the army to be honest,if it's whit space marines or chaos space marines then i usually just end up retreating the scouts, and the heretics just stay back to worship support, but whit blob armies is just a pain to get focused by piercing DPS after you dodged the grenades, also i missed something in the equation, usually the eldar units have FoF activated moments before they start the engagement, meaning that the eldar players has the numbers calculated and it's just prepared to focus after throwing the grenades.
Kvn wrote:If they activated FoF just before the engagement starts, both their guns and grenades will be doing significantly less damage, allowing you to outshoot them fairly comfortably. It comes down to the Eldar player choosing between dps or maneuverability, and your ability to react to that decision.
Well, let me explain it better trying to do this from an eldar player perspective, pretty much you dont want to use your FoF at the same moment the engagement started since you will just do almost nothing whit it, however, if you activate the FoF before starting the offensive or just to run away and take cover, you wait a moment and then use that small amount of time left to land your grenades or scare the enemy off whit them to make them move, and then focus fire whit the full power of your weapons again. :S I know, it's strategy, but it is tooooo lameee to be honest.
The Great Kenny wrote:I agree, but this comparison was made up to see that ork shootas consume more power in upgrades, take much bleeding when they need to back off when they run and also, are easy to just disperse while using artillery and jump troops, in the other hand FoF just saves you from that problem if you are paying attention.
Kvn wrote:Orks also have a stronger economy to support their expenditures, allowing for heavier investment either into their troops or into their numbers overall. This is especially true in T2 where they get quite a lot of power-cheap (comparatively) units. Comparing them directly isn't always the best thing to do since they do similar, but still distinct things for two very different armies.
I agree and disagree, i agree in the part that ork shootas do a lot by just point and clicking, and that also ork units in tier 2 are pretty cheap for how userfull they are compared to eldar ones (I will put aside the Fire dragons since they are still over hated and over loved at the same time), however, the dire avenger does tier up better than the nob leader thanks to it's passive DR that becomes active in tier II, and yeah they do have a lot of race diferences, but i picked up to compare DA whit ork shootas since back in 2.5 (i know it is in the past) had an equal un-upgraded cost whit the DA, but the unupgraded DA where simply just an improved version of the unupgraded ork shootas in that patch, yet again i go whit the part that triple big shoota ork shootas are more power hungry and more counterable whit weapon especialist than DA battle equipment.
The Great Kenny wrote:I apologize, what i wanted to mean is, why do i have to usually use 60 power to try and counter this units? And yes this time was about IG vs eldar.
Kvn wrote:Ah, well, like I said above, your best counter to the DA is going to be a mixture of your GM and your Sentinel, neither costing power. Dire Avengers will run circles around Spotters so long as the Eldar player is aware, and HWT will only slow them down.
True, sadly this is where i would love to have a replay, my sentinel used to get shot down into pieces when i want to send him to stomp, however i learned that it was a terrible idea to try and do that back in 2.5, but even in that DA doesnt seem to trully get scared about the sentinel when they have battle equipement, first of all they usually focus my GM, i try my best to keep them away from them, GM while repairing the sentinel always love to choose their own targets wich it's usually the commanders, so DA are pretty much having a happy time while they have lost 1 model and i ave lost like 6, i try to use the stomp on the DA to make them stop over harassing my GM but for obvious reasons they use FoF, and then come back to keep harassing the GM unit that i didnt retreat, in the other hand my commander if it's a commissar or an inquisitor whitout the Crossbow will pretty much get gunned down by just putting one feet on DA range territory.
The Great Kenny wrote:Well, i use all races, my least played race is tyranid, but i did play whit eldar a lot back in 2.5 but i at least TRY to make diferent builds, i had sometimes just gone for 1 DA and 1 banshee squads (Obviously later supported by 1 shur and 1 ranger) and it sometimes work and sometimes doesnt, the point that i want to get, is that it is starting to get over repetitive, i really dont want this game to become starcraft 2.5 where people is going to end up countering blob spams whit blob spams, i am also not necessarily making this thread to just increase 5 power to the BA, especially since i have a lot of respect to all the work, effort, time and love that the elite team has put into making this work, i post this in this thread becouse i want people to realize that milking this build is getting old, repetitive,and has a lot of adventages on tier 1 in both huge maps (Webway gates, yet it costs red so i wont complain about that) and small maps where double shuriken canons and triple dire avengers work like a miracle to a point that it is no longer fun nor challenging, it is getting frustrating, and boring to play against, yes, i know you are going to tell me that if i had played so much against this build then why havent i planed a way to counter this?, well i have, and it was a pretty cancerous build, double artillery spotters, it costed me a lot of micro since the eldar player i was playing against was using a lot of dispersing tactics whit FoF against my first single Artillery spotter, i got the second one, and i just started shelling either the back and front or the sides, depending on wich second direction the eldar was taking, this did work really good, but at the moment i was starting to tier up, the eldar player had already a falcon, had to obviously mass retreat to not unecesarily bleed, and in the end i got double gen bashed after i got to tier 2, i honestly conceded, even tough i agree that i just conceded to soon instead of getting SM, however, that is a fight that i got from 2.5 so it's not to relevant in here except for the fact that FoF DOES save you from a lot of situations and sometimes forces you to get counters against speed, sadly i have so many bad experiences whit set up teams, to a point where i started to mainly use Artillery spotters and sometimes catachans when i am not facing a farseer. And that was yet another IG vs Eldar in there
Kvn wrote:I can see where your concerns and frustrations might come from, but currently there isn't much incentive for Eldar to do otherwise. Especially against IG, where making a wrong decision in T1 can just end the game then and there since that's when IG can get the greatest advantage over them. Banshees are suicide vs Inquisitor with her 1-click squad lockdown abilities, as well as her aoe debuffs and plethora of ways to bleed them, and they do poorly against Lord General who can add huge focus fire and shoot them down quite handily. They are all right against the Commissar, but a good IG player will nail them with Sentinel stomps when they can't dodge and then bleed the Eldar eco dry with their 35 rec costs (which means that losing 2 Banshees is just shy of the price losing a Tactical Marine model). Rangers are just bad against IG in general since they can't bleed anything, and now their dps is so low that they can't threaten the Sentinel either. That leaves DAs and Shuris as the go-to choices for Eldar, and while it can get very repetitive, their effectiveness has been toned down with the 2.6 patch.
After reading this, i trully simphatize whit the eldar players, the rangers... Not only vs IG, but also against SM, i dont know if against other races, i played a game today against an space marine player whit eldar, i was doing great, 2 DA and banshees whit a farseer, however the guy got Devs, i of course didnt go for the infamous Triple DA build, but i wanted to give the space marine an interesting fight, so i wanted to give a shot to the rangers even tough i have heard soooo many bad things about them lately, and wow, completely agree whit all of that, i mean they werent completely useless, but that is becouse i invested in the pathfinder gear, used the distortion field and at first it super supported my banshees, where i was able to win a fire fight, sadly i was not able to wipe out the devs thanks to the scout shotgun blast, however, all of that userfullnes died up when the scouts got the sargeant upgrade, i went for a shuriken but of course i get to face a surprise razorback and i pretty much conceded, well countered by the marine, but damn the rangers dont do any damage, not even whit the HI damage multiplier that the sniper damage type has, so in one way i completely agree whit this #MAKERANGERSGREATAGAIN (And stop milking 3 & 4 DA.....plz)
Kvn wrote:I wouldn't worry about it turning into a Starcraft clone though. Even with the triple DA meta, Dawn of War 2 has remained a micro-focused and unique game. Dawn of War 3 on the other hand... well... things look grim.
Nope, not even you would like to see 3 GM gunning down a falcon whit just lasguns, so no, fuck starcraft, but i used the starcraft example just to put in on how frustrating is to go against units of the same type, and well, Dawn of War 3...... The art style is pretty starcrafty... But i hope that it still holds true to unit counters, but if we are going whit collorfull and graphic styles, i just hope it doesnt make it's gameplay be "The codex astartes dictates that bolters are more effective than lascannons against a fire prism" please no fuck starcraft again, in that case i hope it mimics more Star wars: Empire at war forces of corruption.
The Great Kenny wrote:By the way, thanks Kvn for sharing your point of view, i know i made this look like a rant, but i am digging upon stats, numbers and everything i can for my lack of replays, so in one i am giving facts whit numbers, but you seem to ignore that the DA do have mobility and damage adventage over most of the ranged units in the game, going back into the ork shoota and dire avenger comparison, also thanks for pointing out that i was not giving good arguments, this is my second post about balance, and that is mostly becouse as i am struggling to point out, i dont want this game to be starcraft 2.5, i want this game to have more unit intensity and variation than just seeing every game, 1 v 1, 2 v 2, 3 v 3 have builds like triple hormogaunts (I still dont get why some people keeps using this build, it's actually pretty easy to counter), triple sluggas whit the warboss (Even tough that one is fun to fight against until... Tier 2...) and the most classic and used one since guardians in retail.... Triple guardians now evolved to dire avengers, in elite mod i have seen less builds that uses 3 units of the same type but it is getting hilarious how much this build is used, and how in almost every game this unit does well against me, and against other players, and trust me, there was a guy complaining about banshees being bad against IG, actually, banshees where my ace vs IG, i just wait for the guy to send his commissar, shoot him down or force him back whit DA, and then send banshees and whatever hero im playing whit, whit meele and fleet of foot against the guardsmen, i just click away from the sentinel stomp (I do agree that the sentinel does bug out meele units making 1 or 2 models stare at it waiting for the stomp, wich of course sometimes change the course of the battle), but far from that banshees do tank well GM whit any of the aspect upgrades, and they got a pretty nice especial move that it is known to make banshees a great squad wipe unit, so, why are there so many DA builds, why not just play more whit banshees than just constantly use triple dire avengers, seriously 7 out of 10 eldar players keep using this build, not saying that all of them make them look userfull, most of the times this build fails is becouse the DA rush in against units whitout the battle equipment upgrade, but in the end whit it, they are a good mobility unit, defensive unit and also a good ranged DPS unit, even if you win the engagement there will always be a falcon when the eldar doesnt invest power in especialist units, or you just get double or triple shuriken'd wich ends up in numerous gen bashes, also i want to point out that i hate the over use of 1 single unit, even if it's just some cheap GM or Hormogaunts, but i still feel that the triple DA do a lot and now that the battle equipment is a must - buy, the tomb of the rangers was digged even deeper in my point of view.
Thanks again for your reply Kvn.
Kvn wrote:Sure thing. Sorry again for the earlier quips. From what I can tell, these seem to be problems that come from learning the matchup along the way and how best to counteract them. I can sympathize as my second favorite hero would the the Commissar (though Farseer will forever remain my number one) but those growing pains are part of playing the game. They'll get better sooner or later, and as you improve, you'll find the best way to punish those builds with your own style, whether it is by traditional means or otherwise. (Commi Cata Ogryn melee blob of doom for life)
Rangers have been dead for a while. It's just easier to smell them now. ;P
Again, no need to apologize, and to be honest, it's not pride or anything, but i consider myself a well experienced IG that just wants to avoid using 2 artillery spotter teams again and play fair and interesting, since i pretty much care about even a single GM model like if it was a SM scout model, so in other words i pretty much use the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 squad management as they come out, sadly when i am on the move IG squads LOVE to group up and say hi to AoE spells and flamers, this in the end did end up looking like an IG and Eldar balance comparison, and to be honest 50% this was a rant while the other half was a balance issue from my point of view, and that 50% of a rant is becouse i was playing in a 2 v 2 against an eldar player that i completely destroyed, since the guy got over obsesed whit killing my inquisitor in retreat and sent up a blob of grouped double DA and a banshee squad
where of course i reacted and mass stomped them, punishing his units for not dispersing, but what pissed me off was the fact that he got mad, called me a noob, said that the sentinel was so OP, that it needed more nerfs, and that i was a pussy for playing IG, you know i have most of the times been called a pussy for playing a race that i lorewise love, not becouse they had back in 2.5 extremely OP leman ruses and pretty much over-expendable GM,
however that problem happened 2 days ago, when that eldar player trashtalked me i honestly did lost it and my stress just exploded, i mean, i came back from a business afair and i was kind of exausted since i was talking and walking outside for half of my active day so i wanted to relax and play dawn of war 2 elite mod, wich of course i honestly play it more for fun than competitively,however that game ended up in a huge argument and of course the eldar player ragequited as usual, i was pissed off but i took the bad desition to play another match, i find a 3 v 3 lobby, and of course i find another eldar player, it was in random and i ended up against him, he went for the 3 DA, i rolled my eyes in boredom, but damn i never tought i would see my GM and sentinel get shot down into pieces after he got the battle equipment, since he was a warp spider, my stuff was getting meele'd i had to put my GM to repair the sentinel while the idiots where shooting the Warp spider exarch instead of the real treath and since i was forced to leave cover or else i was going to get bombed, my inquisitor got down into 25% of her HP in just 3 volleys of focused fire, and finally my GM and the sentinel where left where the GM where pretty much gunned down in seconds while the sentinel had to run away after the GM had to be forced to retreat, but yay, WP finished the poor thing off. And of course i got gen bashed and i got called a noob, while i usually dont care about it, for my current state, i blew up and i pretty much got in my toughts that battle equipment overperformed and came here.
My apologizes if i annoyed everyone, also... #MAKERANGERSGREATAGAIN (AND STOP MILKING 3 AND 4 DA BUILDS IF THAT HAPPENS...... please <3)
