Is it OP or is it UP?

[Tex]

I have been reading and contributing on the forums pretty regularly now and I have a question for you fine folks: "What do you find is overpowered or underpowered"?

Keep in mind this thread is not meant for argument in any way and please be respectful of anyone who contributes. The sole purpose for my asking is so I can get some ideas for things to test.

Some examples of things that I have been testing extensively are:

- Ravener Alpha "acid splatter" wargear
(My conclusion so far is that it is not OP, but it does change the way the RA plays against SM in T2 and onward. It is also my opinion that this wargear now even futher over-shadows the crippling claw in tier 1 due to the similarity of these 2 wargears in the loss of the RA's ranged attack).

- Warlock "Channeling runes" wargear
(My conclusion is that this wargear is definitely OP. After seeing how uncounterable my banshees are while under this healing effect, there is no doubt left in my mind. I believe it needs a slight nerf to the heal effect.)

- Warlock "Swift movement" global
(My conclusion is that this wargear does too much for 75 red. For something that effects all allies universally, but more importantly, for something that extends the retreat killing capacity of a warlock and his warhost to something you can't even calculate, it definitely needs a red cost increase of 25-35.)

- Painboy "git sauce?" ability
(My conclusion is that this ability is out of control. It can barely be countered when used correctly, and the regeneration definitely needs a duration decrease so it can at least be kited and delayed without actually needing a full on suppression unit to turn away the orks under its effect.)

- Commisar Lord "aura of discipline" healing effect
(I am currently inconclusive. I am leaning towards this wargear not doing enough, although I don't feel I know exactly how it works... any help here?)

- IG med bunker "healing aura"
(My conclusion is that the aura is out of control. The healing rate is staggering and I think it needs to be toned down to a point where it doesn't work on units that are within "Y" range of combat or units that are being attacked.)

[Ace of Swords]

- Ravener Alpha "acid splatter" wargear
(My conclusion so far is that it is not OP, but it does change the way the RA plays against SM in T2 and onward. It is also my opinion that this wargear now even futher over-shadows the crippling claw in tier 1 due to the similarity of these 2 wargears in the loss of the RA's ranged attack).

I still don't know where you got to the conclusion that it's only a problem of SM, actually it's a problem with every 5-men squad and over, This wargears absolutely annihilates everything, low hp-high model counters squads AND it's still able to hurt alot of things such as ogryns, for it's cost and considering the mobility/other abilities of the commander and the race as a whole it is indeed overpowered.

- Warlock "Channeling runes" wargear
(My conclusion is that this wargear is definitely OP. After seeing how uncounterable my banshees are while under this healing effect, there is no doubt left in my mind. I believe it needs a slight nerf to the heal effect.)

In my opinion they are fine, althrought im not sure what happens if the WL uses channeling runes while he has his own shield active (the one from champion's robe) usually this wargear it's a retreat if you don't spot it immediately, otherwise I just tend to either Kb the WL or pull back out of range of it.

- Warlock "Swift movement" global
(My conclusion is that this wargear does too much for 75 red. For something that effects all allies universally, but more importantly, for something that extends the retreat killing capacity of a warlock and his warhost to something you can't even calculate, it definitely needs a red cost increase of 25-35.)

Agree on the underlined part, but the retreat killing potential rarely changes from FoF to Swift movement, usually what dies to it dies to banshees that use FoF despite the damage reduction.

- Painboy "git sauce?" ability
(My conclusion is that this ability is out of control. It can barely be countered when used correctly, and the regeneration definitely needs a duration decrease so it can at least be kited and delayed without actually needing a full on suppression unit to turn away the orks under its effect.)

Agree on this, but im also concerned with his high resistence + his 40(50?) power melee and DoT.

- Commisar Lord "aura of discipline" healing effect
(I am currently inconclusive. I am leaning towards this wargear not doing enough, although I don't feel I know exactly how it works... any help here?)

I think it's in a good spot, i don't like using it myself and the same seems to go for the others, but who does use it gets decents results out of it.

- IG med bunker "healing aura"
(My conclusion is that the aura is out of control. The healing rate is staggering and I think it needs to be toned down to a point where it doesn't work on units that are within "Y" range of combat or units that are being attacked.)

I rarely see the med bunker in 1v1, so i don't really know, I think it would be fine if it would be moved to T2 along the other upgrades for the bunker.

[Arbit]

More dakka (mek global) - I'm a little surprised there isn't more fuss over this. Basically, you pop this on a shoota squad, target a commander, and voila, you have an unholy combination of the apo's full auto ability plus shoota dps boosted by 25%. If you save this for when a sorc, apo, WL, whatever is in melee with your sluggas, you can KO commanders repeatedly. Frankly, as boring as the original ability is, I thought it was fine without the knockdown chance. It's spammable and has excellent synergy with TB barrage and beamy lootas.

Libby - as noted in the other thread, a weaponskill boost during quickening seems justified because he goes down in melee too easily.

TM artificer's armor - artificer's seems to lose out internally to bionics. Bionics is cheaper, gives most of the health regen bonus that artificer's does (.25 vs .30 if the changelog is to be believed... I think in game it may be .20, but still), adds a cheap ability that retains usefulness in T2, and boosts his CC damage. Artificer's gives you mines that are deadly but expensive energy-wise and difficult to use effectively, and it gives marginally more health regen. Artificer's doesn't scale well into T2 either IMO. I'm wondering if people share my impressions at this point, not calling for buffs/nerfs.

TM melta - I like that this weapon is a more viable choice, but 100% fotm for the melta gun may be a little overboard. Flip on the shield, click force melee on a vehicle that is trying to escape, and watch him doggedly roast it to death. Maybe go 75%?

I've playing a lot of SM lately and they feel pretty balanced. TM axe is great now that it has a charge attack. Sternguard upgrade is just what tacticals needed (barring some issues mentioned in the bug thread). I feel like I have an easier time when playing orks, but I think that's a combo of past experience and SM simply being more of an "expert" race rather than one or the other being OP/UP.

[Tex]

Ace, please read my first post again. I appreciate you joining in and I am more than welcoming your arguments in private or in a different thread, but in this thread I am merely inviting people to list a few things that concern them in terms of balance, and then provide a little background information on it.

I'm reading all listed items and I will try out every single one!

(So list one or two damn you!)

[Torpid]

Orks

Deff Dread is OP. It is too rushable. At the moment it practically guarantees a farm-wipe vs most races and is a fairly strong walker with very good anti-infantry damage too. I think it should still be a rushable vehicle, but at the same time require quite an investment if you go for that rush and so I think increases the price of burnaz'n'bits to 30 power might help. Maybe that would be too expensive then and people would just rush the DD and not upgrade it so maybe increasing its default price to 65 power and BnB to 25 may be better?

Stikks are UP. I don't actually think stikks themselves underperform as a unit. In fact, balance wise I think they are fine. However the issue with them is that their price doesn't fit in with the ork eco. Ultimately artillery units are only secondary unit purchases in t2 and they won't carry your t2 alone. The issue however is that all of the ork t2 is req intensive bar the deff dread, although that doesn't count for it's power wiping capabilities. Bustas cost 300 req, the trukk costs ~200 req, the webo 400 and stikks 360. You can't purchase stikks because of this, you severely imbalance your economy which is further req dry due to the fact that all ork t1 units bleed disproportionate amounts of req compared to power. I would make stikks cost 280/40. I feel stikks costing 360 req would be like if P devs cost 30 power.


More dakka is OP. I agree with Arbit here, there's no need for the knockdown, it's just too good for the red cost.

Kult of speed is UP. It costs a bit too much red for what it does IMO. I know it can lead to vehicle wipes and saves, but it's kinda meh since ork vehicles already have escape mechanisms and are fast to start with. Maybe 25 less red?

Flash gitz are UP. These guys do great damage and seem good at face value, however they actually cost loads. I think it's 450/60 which compared to kasrkin who cost 450/45 I think, and have 2 utility grenades and do better damage and move faster, that seems unfair. They just cost too much atm and don't really compete with your other t3 choices since orks have pretty much everything there. The flash gitz should be ideal to replace a lost shoota but atm are too expensive imo.

Weirdboy and Painboy are both OP, too cheap for what they do. Both should either have their default attack toned down, or their utility capabilities. I suggest lowering the PBs dps to 30 dps instead of 50 and making the WeBo's vomit not increase the damage taken by the stunned unit and for the stun to only last 6 seconds.

Nids:

The Doom of Malan'tai is still too strong. It can wipe entire armies by walking into them and activating the life drain. This is insane, and it also means that it's damn near impossible to kill the thing. You can jump it with stormboys but it just activates it's life drain and your storms die very very fast while it regains health... Honestly, it would be fine without this ability, but I think the best course of action would be to just make this ability either only drain energy and not grant health nor sap health, or make the DOM move slower while the ability is active just so he is killable and can't wipe entire IG/nid/eldar/ork armies solo.

The tyranid t3 leader units are too powerful. Frankly they have too much health for what they do. Honestly tyranids already have the early game advantage but these upgrades make the tyranid gaunts the strongest t1 units in the entire game come t3. Level 4 hormagaunts fully upgraded have more than 3k hp. Termagants a little less, it's actually very hard to ever kill them and then they are reinforcing 2 at a time as well. Plus the AV from those termagants is absurd. Two termagants can force off a khorne dread, it's insane.

I also have some replay evidence to prove this: http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=287144

I also think raveners are slightly UP at the moment. I just feel they still die a bit too quickly to ever use them without the HT which is a shame really. I think a small health buff, maybe 30hp a model, would be nice.

[saltychipmunk]

i disagree about the raveners , they are pretty cheap for a jump unit, whose function is disruption and model kills on retreat, durability should be left to synapses.



My main beef is the chaos heretics , and the chaos lord match up against sm.
why are heretics 210 req why are they just as cheap as scouts despite having literally 5 times the utility.

scouts need upgrades to do anything other than kite and do insignificant dps.
heretics can worship.
heretics (unlike scouts) can actually meet and counter other melee directly with out having to resort to losing ground to kiting like scouts do.
heretics can counter ranged units by meleeing them ( scouts cant do that either since they have low dps and need cover to not die)
heretics cost less pop than scouts too.


i get that scouts once they get their shot guns can deal with the heretics ( but will still get ass pounded by csm) .

but it doesnt change the fact that you need to pay money and power just so the scouts can do their mother clucking job (ie counter melee without losing ground).

why do the heretics start with doomblast? and are 210 pretty high hp for their cost AND get worship. ALL OF IT FOR 210 REQ? HOLY CRAP. not one BUT TWO FANTASTIC ABILITIES FOR NO POWER OR REQ INVESTMENT. WHAT THE HECK IS WITH THAT!. Why do they get two when every other starting unit starts with nothing of t1 value (lol repair) yet cost more?

id love a detailed explanation for why they are like this

[Ace of Swords]

Ace, please read my first post again. I appreciate you joining in and I am more than welcoming your arguments in private or in a different thread, but in this thread I am merely inviting people to list a few things that concern them in terms of balance, and then provide a little background information on it.

I'm reading all listed items and I will try out every single one!

(So list one or two damn you!)

Ok, Ok sorry

-I also second that both the Doom and the nids leaders are too powerful, there is no much need for explanation there, torpid already covered it aswell as i have made various posts about them already.

-Endless Swarm is in the same spot, nids always had a very good T1-T2 and a sightly weaker T3 compared to other races, especially because the longer the game was the more both hormas and termas would bleed, as it stands now you can literally suicide those units and have barely any negative impact, not only, it often bugs in the same way catas are bugged, and you'll have 6/10 squads with 100-200 hp.

-Painboy, like i said it's overall to good for beign a T1 unit, too high hp/hp regen, damage and utility, aswell it's not fair nor balanced that orks can deploy 2 Sub commanders that powerful.

-Armor of the Apothecarion needs a complete rework, it's extremely expensive and doesn't synergize with the current SM meta or even with the accessory/weapons of the apo beside the improved medical kit.

-Signum armor could use a huge nerf, 50% of damage increase is quite retarded in this game it should go down to 20% and adjust the price abit, I honestly don't know why it was never mentioned but that thing is too good by a large shot.

[Magus Magi]

I am about to be SO unpopular on here...

I think tactical marines AND their sternguard veteran counterparts are underpowered.

Low mobility, low damage, high reinforcement cost.

Being able to cap 50% faster is not that impressive when scouts are already the unit of choice for that role, and the additional HP given tacs in ELITE is helpful but ultimately not enough to keep them in the fight with other squads. Sternguard have a combined cost nearly equal to a terminator squad, but require more micro and lose all the levels they've acquired as tactical marines. (I'm aware they have the ability to retreat, and terminators do not...I'm also aware that terminators have a teleport and are better at fighting every other unit in the game)

If nothing else, I believe that players should have the option of pouring additional resources into tactical marines/sternguard in tier 3 instead of getting terminators. If additional upgrades were available for those squads in the late-game to keep the tacs from becoming just a missile launcher, or my sternguard from becoming an overly expensive level 1 squad, it would go a long way towards improving my opinion of them. As it stands now, those squads become fodder for bigger-badder tier three squads and potentially bleed their owner with high reinforcement costs.

I know that game replays are not always a good measure of the game. However, I have made a serious habit of playing DoW2 and watching DoW2 ELITE casters. Maestro and Indrid are my daily escape after class. After watching more games than I can count, and following the game updates closely, Tactical marines/sternguard remain underwhelming in my opinion, to say the least.

I know this is going to irritate some of you, but I'm just gonna leave this here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGPesbHQ0II

I know that my opinion is not necessarily a common one. And I suspect that I may attract a great deal of venom for this post, but I hope you'll all take it in stride. I'm just answering the OP's question honestly. I love the ELITE mod, and I think the dev crew does a fantastic job. It wouldn't take much to fix the problem that I perceive here, just a little DPS there, or accuracy here, or a new librarian ability, or a tier 3 upgrade. Any number of options are available.

[Tex]

No worries bud, this is an anti-venom thread!

[Cyris]

Good thread imo, contingent on banter getting yelled at by Tex Trying to focus on races I play the most...

UP - VC Fex. Spend a little time comparing costs, upkeeps, damage, abilities and tier to BL WL or other big walkers, then add in no fire on the move. This unit is meh at AV and lacks either the escape charge or suppression of the other Fex upgrades that allow them to get into the middle of the battle with some outs. So, the VC Fex either sits at the edge of the battle and is an overpriced Venom squad, or over commits without an escape plan. Both options are meh for T3 - 700/200.

OP - Wierdboy. Out of the box, he has 2 amazing abilities and an amazing basic attack, and his cost is surprisingly low. His upgrades are situationally good, which is exactly what you want from a guy like this. Obsoletes stickboys in my mind. Counters setup, blobbing ranged, non-jump melee and is soft AV. No need for all this in one unit.

UP - Spikey Armor - Does everything Cyborg Implants does but worse and scales badly. T1 melee spam counter on a race who is not afraid of T1 melee spam.

OP - More Dakka - For all the reasons said. Using this, or being on the receiving end, both feel cheap. Cost should be higher, or just lose the knockdown. It was a neat idea, but knockdown has some really funky side effects in this engine.

UP - Libby. Consider me on this bandwagon. This guys cost is too high, in T2 he is a large risk when going into melee and leaving him on ranged stance all the time feels goofy. More consistent melee performance or just lower cost, maybe both?

UP - Whirlwind. Missiles still don't disrupt reliably enough to justify the cost in 1v1. Every time I build this unit I regret it, and when my opponents build it I punish them hard.

[Vapor]

-Signum armor could use a huge nerf, 50% of damage increase is quite retarded in this game it should go down to 20% and adjust the price abit, I honestly don't know why it was never mentioned but that thing is too good by a large shot.

Really? I can see increasing the price especially since it comes with a couple additional benefits, but the ability seems ok. The Farseer also gets +40% mark target, and in t1 no less.

[Batpimp]

I have been reading and contributing on the forums pretty regularly now and I have a question for you fine folks: "What do you find is overpowered or underpowered"?

Keep in mind this thread is not meant for argument in any way and please be respectful of anyone who contributes. The sole purpose for my asking is so I can get some ideas for things to test.

Some examples of things that I have been testing extensively are:

Ravener Alpha "acid splatter" wargear
(My conclusion so far is that it is not OP, but it does change the way the RA plays against SM in T2 and onward. It is also my opinion that this wargear now even futher over-shadows the crippling claw in tier 1 due to the similarity of these 2 wargears in the loss of the RA's ranged attack).

Dont know. never used by me. interesting discussion though as i read it.

Warlock "Channeling runes" wargear
(My conclusion is that this wargear is definitely OP. After seeing how uncounterable my banshees are while under this healing effect, there is no doubt left in my mind. I believe it needs a slight nerf to the heal effect.)

A slight nerf is needed. Maybe reduce the speed of the unit it is casted upon? To me it is similar to the buff the FC gives with his shield. It is meant to be have your units be able to last longer in fights but not completely fight 3 armies worth of units. I am exaggerating, but you know what I mean.

Warlock "Swift movement" global
(My conclusion is that this wargear does too much for 75 red. For something that effects all allies universally, but more importantly, for something that extends the retreat killing capacity of a warlock and his warhost to something you can't even calculate, it definitely needs a red cost increase of 25-35.)

In the hands of someone good, it's super duper good. It's amazingly easy to wipe squads with banshees already. this needs a cost increase for sure. Its only really used for that purpose.

Painboy "git sauce?" ability
(My conclusion is that this ability is out of control. It can barely be countered when used correctly, and the regeneration definitely needs a duration decrease so it can at least be kited and delayed without actually needing a full on suppression unit to turn away the orks under its effect.)

Definitely needs a decrease healing in tier 1, either regen rate or duration. Later on in t2 and beyond should be looked at for more abnormalities. It is so easy to use this thing that i dont get the painboy because i feel cheap using it. The cost is correct though. It significantly holds back my tech as orks. And as we all know you have to be ahead in the resource game as ork.

Commisar Lord "aura of discipline" healing effect
(I am currently inconclusive. I am leaning towards this wargear not doing enough, although I don't feel I know exactly how it works... any help here?)

-

dont know.

- IG med bunker "healing aura"
(My conclusion is that the aura is out of control. The healing rate is staggering and I think it needs to be toned down to a point where it doesn't work on units that are within "Y" range of combat or units that are being attacked.)

Healing around the bunker during combat makes it a great target for AV and artillery. It's way more potent in 1v1 than team games though. Team games usualy two globals or a good rush and you can take it out with AV. I just always have in mind to have AV ready vs IG. Its useful vs almost any BO they get.

[Ace of Swords]

-Signum armor could use a huge nerf, 50% of damage increase is quite retarded in this game it should go down to 20% and adjust the price abit, I honestly don't know why it was never mentioned but that thing is too good by a large shot.

Really? I can see increasing the price especially since it comes with a couple additional benefits, but the ability seems ok. The Farseer also gets +40% mark target, and in t1 no less.

Doom could also use nerf, the current buff-stacking the FS can do at the moment is insane, especially since all of her buffs work on allied vehicles.

[Batpimp]

Arbit"]More dakka (mek global) - I'm a little surprised there isn't more fuss over this. Basically, you pop this on a shoota squad, target a commander, and voila, you have an unholy combination of the apo's full auto ability plus shoota dps boosted by 25%. If you save this for when a sorc, apo, WL, whatever is in melee with your sluggas, you can KO commanders repeatedly. Frankly, as boring as the original ability is, I thought it was fine without the knockdown chance. It's spammable and has excellent synergy with TB barrage and beamy lootas.

Are you able to retreat out of this as your being knocked down? It seems to insta wipe any hero that is not HT or CL or BC. I have never been able to retreat out of it but i assume its me messing up on the retreat

[Batpimp]

Orks

Deff Dread is OP. It is too rushable. At the moment it practically guarantees a farm-wipe vs most races and is a fairly strong walker with very good anti-infantry damage too. I think it should still be a rushable vehicle, but at the same time require quite an investment if you go for that rush and so I think increases the price of burnaz'n'bits to 30 power might help. Maybe that would be too expensive then and people would just rush the DD and not upgrade it so maybe increasing its default price to 65 power and BnB to 25 may be better?

I dont disagree with the power burning potential but I have found that i only have the DD if im already way ahead of my enemy. If the enemy is on equal grounds I barely have 20-30 seconds before they have a soft/hard counter. In team games hes even less useful. I am assuming you mean in 1v1? I know your a better player than me on the regular but what perspective are you coming from?

Stikks are UP. I don't actually think stikks themselves underperform as a unit. In fact, balance wise I think they are fine. However the issue with them is that their price doesn't fit in with the ork eco. Ultimately artillery units are only secondary unit purchases in t2 and they won't carry your t2 alone. The issue however is that all of the ork t2 is req intensive bar the deff dread, although that doesn't count for it's power wiping capabilities. Bustas cost 300 req, the trukk costs ~200 req, the webo 400 and stikks 360. You can't purchase stikks because of this, you severely imbalance your economy which is further req dry due to the fact that all ork t1 units bleed disproportionate amounts of req compared to power. I would make stikks cost 280/40. I feel stikks costing 360 req would be like if P devs cost 30 power.

Totally agree. I stopped almost completey using em. The Weirdboy does almost the same and is vastly more useful.

More dakka is OP. I agree with Arbit here, there's no need for the knockdown, it's just too good for the red cost.

I am not sure if you have noticed but are you able to retreat out of the knockdown? I have seen it used to great affect by me and to me and i have yet to see anyone retreat in time. I wouldnt mind a continuous stun that is retreatable but not sure how that would change things in most all match ups. It seems the Kommando and WB have a way to stun to interrupt channeling spells or what have you. Maybe this could be a solution to be able to control in stun type situation

Kult of speed is UP. It costs a bit too much red for what it does IMO. I know it can lead to vehicle wipes and saves, but it's kinda meh since ork vehicles already have escape mechanisms and are fast to start with. Maybe 25 less red?

I agree here too.

Flash gitz are UP. These guys do great damage and seem good at face value, however they actually cost loads. I think it's 450/60 which compared to kasrkin who cost 450/45 I think, and have 2 utility grenades and do better damage and move faster, that seems unfair. They just cost too much atm and don't really compete with your other t3 choices since orks have pretty much everything there. The flash gitz should be ideal to replace a lost shoota but atm are too expensive imo.

i agree here too. Either they need a buff or a cost reduction. They arent THAT good.

Weirdboy and Painboy are both OP, too cheap for what they do. Both should either have their default attack toned down, or their utility capabilities. I suggest lowering the PBs dps to 30 dps instead of 50 and making the WeBo's vomit not increase the damage taken by the stunned unit and for the stun to only last 6 seconds.

As an avid ork player. The WeBo is amazing. He should NEVER NOT be bought. it doesnt matter what composition you have him for, he has an answer to it to help in some way. The WeBo plasma dmg could be reduced but keep the knockdown. Also the stun would be fine at 6 seconds. Increasing dmg received could be reduced for sure.

Nids:

The Doom of Malan'tai is still too strong. It can wipe entire armies by walking into them and activating the life drain. This is insane, and it also means that it's damn near impossible to kill the thing. You can jump it with stormboys but it just activates it's life drain and your storms die very very fast while it regains health... Honestly, it would be fine without this ability, but I think the best course of action would be to just make this ability either only drain energy and not grant health nor sap health, or make the DOM move slower while the ability is active just so he is killable and can't wipe entire IG/nid/eldar/ork armies solo.

dont know havent had enough experience.

The tyranid t3 leader units are too powerful. Frankly they have too much health for what they do. Honestly tyranids already have the early game advantage but these upgrades make the tyranid gaunts the strongest t1 units in the entire game come t3. Level 4 hormagaunts fully upgraded have more than 3k hp. Termagants a little less, it's actually very hard to ever kill them and then they are reinforcing 2 at a time as well. Plus the AV from those termagants is absurd. Two termagants can force off a khorne dread, it's insane.

dont know. Havent had enough experience to comment.

I also have some replay evidence to prove this: http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=287144

I also think raveners are slightly UP at the moment. I just feel they still die a bit too quickly to ever use them without the HT which is a shame really. I think a small health buff, maybe 30hp a model, would be nice.

i agree. They dont seem to be that worth it.

Will do the other races when I get the chance.

[Torpid]

All balance discussion has to be based around the 1v1 perspective since 3v3 has too many other aspects such as the lesser need for mobility, doubling, teammates being able to cover your weaknesses, power bashing being easier etc.

[Toilailee]

Swift movement is op

Deff rolla is op

Gates op? tbh I cba to remember how they've been changed recently. But at 50red spammable and with abilities they are way op.

Painboy heal duration could use a nerf so it can be kited out (like tex said).

Jedi warlock op

Weirdboy vomit stun lasts way too long

Sm flamer at 15 power and 15? seconds build time is op


Can't think of anything else atm.

[Arbit]

Deff rolla is op

Was going to mention this, it's hella OP, nothing but a cheesy squad deleting ability

Given the damage on the main gun does and bonuses you get for having one squad in it (+50% speed and all guns activated), you could probably remove the instagibbing from the rolla and increase the knockback. It would still be a great disruption and antimelee ability.

[Asmon]

Seer Council is UP. Expensive, no heavy melee, no offensive spells, no upgrades, an aura that is pretty much meh, a special attack that is bugged, can be kb and suppressed. The only good thing about them is that they are limited to one per player, so you cannot make the mistake of building them twice.

VC Fex needs a more reliable ability, but is only slightly UP.

HT's Rending Talons are OP. Cheap, high damage, awesome ability that bugs out retreating units (but that is because of HT's pathing priorities so it is unlikely to be fixed).

[Batpimp]

Swift movement is op

Deff rolla is op

Gates op? tbh I cba to remember how they've been changed recently. But at 50red spammable and with abilities they are way op.

Painboy heal duration could use a nerf so it can be kited out (like tex said).

Jedi warlock op

Weirdboy vomit stun lasts way too long

Sm flamer at 15 power and 15? seconds build time is op


Can't think of anything else atm.

i agree with all except SM flamer

[Forestradio]

Warp Throw is OP.

Dark Reapers having HI armor is OP, seeing as they counter every other HI infantry unit with the possible exception of tcsm.

kommando nob with grappling hook and his kaboom! ability is OP, you can instagib two whole termagaunt squads with it.

Spiky armor on warboss is UP, big stomp does anti-melee better and offers better synergy with other wargears.

painboy DOT is OP, orks don't need another unit good against low model squads in T1. Remove it in T1, give it back in T2

Libby is UP, but there's already a thread for that.

[Vapor]

kommando nob with grappling hook and his kaboom! ability is OP, you can instagib two whole termagaunt squads with it.

.

Lol I swear to god I've never wiped a squad with that kombo aside from that one time. It was the luckiest fluke ever.

Priority #1 is to make the hook actually work again.

[sk4zi]

More dakka (mek global) - I'm a little surprised there isn't more fuss over this. Basically, you pop this on a shoota squad, target a commander, and voila, you have an unholy combination of the apo's full auto ability plus shoota dps boosted by 25%. If you save this for when a sorc, apo, WL, whatever is in melee with your sluggas, you can KO commanders repeatedly. Frankly, as boring as the original ability is, I thought it was fine without the knockdown chance. It's spammable and has excellent synergy with TB barrage and beamy lootas.

i pretty much agree with this, but more broken is the knockback of Guardsmen at T3 imho.
its the same without costing red, and also for the startting squad. just turn on and watch heroes dying... i mean the sqad already has really high damage, is increadibly cheap and for free at the start.

My main beef is the chaos heretics , and the chaos lord match up against sm.
why are heretics 210 req why are they just as cheap as scouts despite having literally 5 times the utility.

scouts need upgrades to do anything other than kite and do insignificant dps.
heretics can worship.
heretics (unlike scouts) can actually meet and counter other melee directly with out having to resort to losing ground to kiting like scouts do.
heretics can counter ranged units by meleeing them ( scouts cant do that either since they have low dps and need cover to not die)
heretics cost less pop than scouts too.


i get that scouts once they get their shot guns can deal with the heretics ( but will still get ass pounded by csm) .

but it doesnt change the fact that you need to pay money and power just so the scouts can do their mother clucking job (ie counter melee without losing ground).

why do the heretics start with doomblast? and are 210 pretty high hp for their cost AND get worship. ALL OF IT FOR 210 REQ? HOLY CRAP. not one BUT TWO FANTASTIC ABILITIES FOR NO POWER OR REQ INVESTMENT. WHAT THE HECK IS WITH THAT!. Why do they get two when every other starting unit starts with nothing of t1 value (lol repair) yet cost more?

id love a detailed explanation for why they are like this

i main SM and Chaos and i disagree.
Heretics are poor without the Squad Leader Purchased who is 90/25
in the 1st engagement without leader heretics doomblast 1x and reatreat. before they have the leader, they loose vs everything.

Scouts have quicker movement than any other squad and range.
also the shotguns are really strong and cost only 15 power.
the invis ability is also very very good since it was buffed.

- i would love the see the resurrecting apo again with the armor of the apotecarian

- paladins nowadays cost only 108/too_less_energy to reinforce.
why? its terminators ... most probably it was not on purpose, was it?

I am not sure if you have noticed but are you able to retreat out of the knockdown?

thats sadly not allways working ... for some reason, sometimes you can´t reatreat until your unit is standing... that means sometimes a knockbacked unit needs to be retreated several times bevore it really does. in most cases this is a beenfit since most kb is in melee and retreating units get more melee-dmage.
but this is a different problem...

[Pandemic]

painboy DOT is OP, orks don't need another unit good against low model squads in T1. Remove it in T1, give it back in T2

This above all.

Or remove his commander armor, I'm sick and tired of being slaughtered by sluggas in melee because the painboy allows them to heal and not lose any models versus my tac marines as the orks close in, or when they are in melee with my Apo supporting.

[Helios]

kommando nob with grappling hook and his kaboom! ability is OP, you can instagib two whole termagaunt squads with it.

Been saying this for ages... Kaboom needs to disable all other abilities so he can't throw himself after he begins the detonation.

[Vapor]

kommando nob with grappling hook and his kaboom! ability is OP, you can instagib two whole termagaunt squads with it.

Been saying this for ages... Kaboom needs to disable all other abilities so he can't throw himself after he begins the detonation.

It's the hook that should disable abilities not the other way around.

[Nurland]

i pretty much agree with this, but more broken is the knockback of Guardsmen at T3 imho.
its the same without costing red, and also for the startting squad. just turn on and watch heroes dying... i mean the sqad already has really high damage, is increadibly cheap and for free at the start.

Uhh? What would that ability be? GM do not have any sort of ranged disruption.

[Vapor]

He's talking about the gk storms, wrong race entirely but I do agree that the ability is annoying as fuck for support commanders.

[Codex]

I'm pretty sure Painboy has infantry armor. Unless they changed that.

[Caeltos]

It has infantry.