Brightlance upgrade for Shuriken Platform

[saltychipmunk]

plus it can still melee with reasonable succes. it wont be as threatening as a full khorn dread or a double fist fury dread , but it is more than enough to act as a reasonable deterrent to jump units or a selection of vulnerable ranged units .

And omg were the vanilla plagues insane.

the same can be said for tacs with a rocket , tank bustas and even venom broods. they are all mobile which alone wont get you far, but they have a secondary attribute , spike damage, all of them can fire a volly and run away or at a vehicle.

Tank bustas and Venom Broods do NO infantery damage. both of them are no upgrades but single units which u need to buy seperately.
although Venoms have a second benefit its still not like a Brightlance, Warp Spiders or Wraithguard, which u buy all for other purposes and get the AV additional to the other good things thees units do
- last but not least. you got the Fire Dragons who do massive damage also to other units - they are really powerfull !!!!11

that maybe true , but you have to examine these units in the scope of what their race needs in an av unit.

yes tactical marines bustas and venom brood do no damage apart from av. I cannot dispute that. However in the scope of each individual race they are in they are exceptional buys.

tactical marines shine the most in t1 in terms of ranged dps (unless you plan to heavily invest in them in t2). but unless you throw a sarge and plasma gun on them, or go all the way with the veteracy upgrade (which i usually do not recommend) the tacs really dont have much punch. The rocket upgrade enables them a method to keep tactically relevant in t2 with out the need to invest much more into their purchase price. And from it you get a durable av unit that can cap fast , kit vehicles and still tie up light infantry squads. all of that for just the price of the rocket launcher since most sm players will have the tacs coming in from teir 1.

tank busts on the other hand are an extremely cheap and very specialized av option for orks. sure they are only good for their rocket barrage and av damage. but for what 300 req and no power investment what more could you ask for? combine them with the inevitable warpath ability you get on the wierd boy and bam ork answer to vehicles .

venoms have the option to be used as both an av unit and a aura buff to the nid ranged blob.

in all three cases, either the unit is already in play and the av option merely keeps them relavent , the unit is focused and cost effective that their presence doesn't negatively impact their races build or they have crucial ability options that benefit their race in general.


but fire dragons. What can i say that the dragons add to the field besides contributing yet another fragile infantry unit to the eldar arsenal . if we needed a fragile anti infantry / vehicle unit then banshees can fit the bill most of the time.
yes they can do infantry damage , yes they can do vehicle damage but they have the survivability of shotgun scouts. Yeah everything is fine when no one is shooting them. but they have short ranged weapons... everyone will be shooting at them.. and they will bleed models because of it.

one thing to consider is that 1v1 is not the only game mode , and in comparison to 2v2 and 3v3 1v1 might as well be an entirely separate game with an entirely different set of rules. This was a major fault of relic in they they tried to make their units balanced for all three modes despite making each play fundamentally differently.

regardless it leads to a bottom line , what works in 1v1 doesnt always work in 3v3 and vice versa.

fire dragons? dark reapers? perfect in1v1s where you can be a dick and play the ninaj capping game , speedy meltas are great there. But not every game is a 1v1 and this is why the plat needed the bright lance upgrade. because in team games it is a much much rarer occurrence that one wants an extra av unit when there is a cheaper alternative available in the form of an upgrade to an already existing unit.

orks have lootas which in big games is what i use over the bustas just so i don't have an extra 10 - 15 pop that i dont need floating around eating my upkeep. the same can be said here. I dont want to have to invest an extra 10 -15 pop in upkeep just so i can get an av unit . it is painfully inefficient in a game that is all about efficiency and clever use of units.

eldar needs this option, that i am certain of.

[sk4zi]

just rush to Eldar T3 in Teamgames and you have no Problems with vehicles at all

like i just sayed, tacs are fine. so are Venoms and Tank bustas ...
but please keep in mind that a rocket launcher for tacs costs more power than a Devastor squad.

so again. it might be the best just to make the Brightlance upgrade more vulnerable to attacks and less sneaky.

the Tzeentch upgrade for chaos Havocs makes them immobile. if you want retreat you need to stop the upgrade 1st and after upgrading the havoc needs to set up again first.

the brightlance remains set-up (i think) and does fire its shurrican bolts up to the last second before it becomes a bright lance.

[Asmon]

Just as any other hwt except Chaos'.

fire dragons? dark reapers? perfect in1v1s where you can be a dick and play the ninaj capping game

Wut? Do leave the game.

But not every game is a 1v1 and this is why the plat needed the bright lance upgrade.

No.

[saltychipmunk]

dont just say no and not justify it with an answer, and dont just go around saying 1v1 is the one and only game mode that matters when clearly that isn't true at all

your arrogance is insulting on a level that might be considered painful.

of all the lobby games ive seen id say only about 10% were 1v1s , regardless of how 1v1 dominant competitive is , that gives you no right to simply write off 2v2s and 3v3s especially since for many people those two game modes are considerably more popular than 1v1.

moving on.

I hope that even you can appreciate that some units that are good in 1v1 are most certainly not good in team games , and that certain units and builds which are great in team games are not so good in 1v1s. Even you can grant me that concession.

Infact set up teams epitomize this relationship. In 3v3s and even some 2v2 maps set up units can effectively lock down entire portions of the map until proper counters are played against them. But in 1v1s there are more avenues of movment and far more resource points to contend thus the ability to lock down areas in 1 v 1 is much more of a daunting task. In many occasions in 1v1 players dont even need to invest in counters to setups if they dont use buildings by flanking with standard squads. ( i am not saying setups are bad in 1v1 , on the contrary they are extremely good , just that their ability to lock down areas is more pronounced in teams games)

Eldar has alot of fragile units that rely heavily on mobility to strike vulnerable targets before a response is leveled against them. in a stand up fight eldar units are as durable as thin napkins in a rainstorm.

thus when you can use fire dragons with their fleet in 1v1s to sneak past opposing units you cant really do that as easily in team games , and instead must rely on the support of platforms and other disruption. but a bright lance? it has that crucial long ranged component meaning you can chip off hp of gens and vehicles with little risk which is ever so important in team games where direct combat is not as easily avoided.


I also don't quite understand why a shuri plat upgrading to a bright lance should come as a surprise or be an issue. Clearly it is something one should see coming . lootas can do it, tacs can do it devs can too. And all of the power requirements to do the change are fairly close between races.

is it any worse than forcecommander global buffed devastator? or a mech boy global buff beamy deffgun?

[Torpid]

It doesn't matter how popular 1v1s are. Frankly the game has to be balanced around 1v1 because 3v3 has far far too many random variables such as doubling and teammates being able to cover your own weaknesses. This isn't a debate that can or should be had. Balance must revolve around 1v1 at all times and therefore if the only reason for the shuriken -> brightlance upgrade thing was to appease 3v3 then that isn't a valid argument for the change at all.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

sure it is. the question is whether or not it has significant detrimental affects upon 1v1 that cannot be resolved.

[saltychipmunk]

I don't get that reasoning. So you saying because various races can compliment eachother 3v3 is impossible to balance so we should ignore it? Isn't that like saying that half the tf2 classes are op when healed by a medic so we should just say "fuck it" and balanced the game on 1 on 1 fights and completely eliminate the whole teamwork aspect?

Am I really the only one who finds that reasoning a little depressing? whatever , lets ignore half of the games appeal for arguments sake.
then focusing squarely on 1v1 .


Again , i point out that the majority of the other races have upgrade mechanics that perform exactly like the bright lance. '

las devs
las havos
beamy lootas
tacs rockets
rocket sentinals

various ranged av upgrades on commanders.

all of them can be upgraded with no notice to the opponent and be abused to trick an opponent into over committing a tank and losing it.

[Torpid]

I don't get that reasoning. So you saying because various races can compliment eachother 3v3 is impossible to balance so we should ignore it?

Yes.

Isn't that like saying that half the tf2 classes are op when healed by a medic so we should just say "fuck it" and balanced the game on 1 on 1 fights and completely eliminate the whole teamwork aspect?

No, totally different considering FPS's function in a totally different way than RTS's.

[sk4zi]

lol children, you dont talk about solutions, you just cry.

[saltychipmunk]

I don't get that reasoning. So you saying because various races can compliment eachother 3v3 is impossible to balance so we should ignore it?

Yes.

Isn't that like saying that half the tf2 classes are op when healed by a medic so we should just say "fuck it" and balanced the game on 1 on 1 fights and completely eliminate the whole teamwork aspect?

No, totally different considering FPS's function in a totally different way than RTS's.

That is a rather narrow interpretation if all you look at is that one has dudes shooting other dudes and the other has a dude commanding other dudes to shoot dudes .

seems to me they are both about dudes shooting dudes and the difference is merely and arbitrary layer of abstraction in how commands are delivered to the various dudes killing eachother.

I can bark orders to my tf2 mates and create completely game breaking strategies just as easily as one can team up with a complimenting strategy in a 2v2 / 3v3 matches in dow2.

but i think i am getting woefully off topic at this point.

[Nurland]

That is a rather narrow interpretation if all you look at is that one has dudes shooting other dudes and the other has a dude commanding other dudes to shoot dudes .

seems to me they are both about dudes shooting dudes and the difference is merely and arbitrary layer of abstraction in how commands are delivered to the various dudes killing eachother.

Ehh... Wut?

Anyway Caeltos is the one deciding on how the mod is balanced and to my understanding the mod's balance has been based in 1v1 so far and I do feel that is the correct way to balance this game/mod.

Edit: Also this is a topic considering Brighlance for Shuri Platform so let's just stay in the topic even if I did also stray from it.

[Dark Riku]

What he^ said.

[sk4zi]

it was off topic