Create New (viable) Chaos Units

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I would like to ask some advices and opinions about two new units in which I've been working, with the purpose to turn them into a viable option to have opportunities to be implemented in the mod.

FYI, the models belongs to Shuma.

Possesed Marines

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Role: anti everything squad in melee combat with heavy melee
Characteristic: High reward high risk berserker unit.
Models: 4
HP: 4 x 600 = 2400 hp
Maximun level: 4, but with a slooow leveling (Needs tons of XP to level)
Armor: Heavy Infantry
Speed: 5.5
Pop: 5 x model = 20.
Weapons: 30 dps melee heavy_melee mutated sword, 7 dps ranged plasma_damage plasma pistol.
Cost: 750 req/150 energy
Abilities:
- Melee damage aura (40% less damage taken from melee combat)
- Combat Madness: for 20 seconds, the squad enrages, doing 50% more damage and increasing their speed by 1.5. You lose control of the squad, and each model loses 1.5% hp per second for the duration. Needs 1000 damage points to activate it.
- Dark Exorcism: Only works if Combat Madness is on. Each member receives 150 explosive_damage and finish the Combat Madness ability.
- Mini buff when they kill a unit, maybe?

Chosen Marines

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Role: Anti-infantry armor ranged squad/Debuffer
Characteristic: High piercing_damage ranged squad with different ammo, ALAS Sternguard.
Models: 4
HP: 4 x 400 = 1600 hp
Maximun level: 4
Armor: Heavy Infantry
Speed: 5
Pop: 4 x model = 16.
Weapons: 18 dps piercing_damage bolters, 19 dps melee combat
Cost: 450 req/40 energy
Upgrades:
- Khorne Gift: The Blood God provides the Hate Ammunition, which makes the enemy squad receive more damage per shot given, but also increases their damage.
- Tzeentch Gift: The Change God provides the Soul Burning Ammunition, which burns the energy of the attacked enemy unit or squad.
- Nurgle Gift: The Diseases God provides the Corrupted Ammunition, which reduces or even negates any health regeneration increase of the attacked squad.
- Slaanesh Gift: The Pleasure God provides the Excess Ammunation, which reduces the enemy Melee Skill, but also makes the squad more resistent to suppression

Abilities:
- Melee damage aura (40% less damage taken from melee combat)
- Chaotic ammunition: Uses the standard Chaos ammo, without additional effect. Allows to the Chosen Marines to regain energy.
- Note: All the specialized ammunitions are locked by default. You need to buy the proper upgrade to unlocked them
- God's Gift: The squad could add some effects to their bolter rounds, depending of the God gift. The use of any gift consumes 1.5 energy per second.

- Hate Ammunition: Increases the damage taken of the attacked squad by 2% per sucessfull hit for 5 seconds, but also increases the the damage they done by 2% per sucessfull hit at the same time. Can stack multiple times.

- Soul Burning Ammunition: Burns 2 energy per sucessfull hit to the attacked squad, but decreases the damage taken by the enemy squad by 2%. This effect lasts 5 seconds. Can stack.

- Corrupted Ammunition: Decreases the health regeneration by 0,15 per successfull hit to the attacked squad for 5 seconds. Can stack multiple times.

-Excess Ammunation: Decreases the enemy melee skill by 1 per sucessfull hit for 5 seconds, but also gives -5 courage damage per hit. Can stack multiple times.

Why?
IMHO this unit fills two roles on the Chaos army which aren't present: a hard ranged-anti-infantry armor squad which don't is based in AOE damage (EW AC CSM or Plague Marines don't fill very well this role IMHO) and a debuffer role.

But this unit requires a bit micro to use well effectively, like Sternguard. But in contrast to them, if you don't micro well the ammo change (or simply forgot to change to the non-energy consume ammo) you turn a battle against you.

Another thing: Yes, I know. Chosen Marines don't have in TT this design (they are ambushers, flank squads and infiltration squads).

Still this units are in a beta state.

Ideas? Possibles different designs?

[Indrid]

They seem cool, the Chosen model looks fantastic too. The Nurgle ammo seems a bit UP to simply negate HP regen. Aside from the Warboss Angry Bitz and Painboy heals, it rarely makes a difference in an engagement but rather allows units to get back into the fight quicker afterwards. That's my take anyway. Perhaps a speed debuff for the Nurgle ammo.

AFAIK Chosen in the latest codex are not ambushers/infiltrators, were they before? They are almost exactly like Sternguard iirc; marines with two attacks that can take almost every weapon option.

I think the Possessed should be a global maybe, making you choose between them and Termies initially. Maybe give them a trait specific to the commander? I can see them being pretty nasty but they are expensive as you propose them.

[Caeltos]

I love the Chosen Model, I'm so glad Shuma came around to finally releasing it. (At least the helmet and shoulderpads). It's too bad he stopped modding completely tho.

However, I've been more in favor of maybe tieing them up with another rank unlock instead (possibly) or "DLC" oriented unlock.

Unit implementations are always a nuissance. And it's espicially aggrovating that there's alot of modding love for Chaos/Space Marines in particular, whereas other factions gets little appriciation. Eventho they've got alot of potential, they're alot harder to implement since there's less re-useage of animations/models compared to Space Marine/Chaos stuff.

Some new stuff, depending on the design of the unit, and how it develops the playstyle/meta of the game might require other factions to get new units. However, so far this hasn't been "completely" the case. Since you can still utilize the same old - same old stuff, to keep yourself still in the game.

[Asmon]

I'm clearly against adding new units atm, except perhaps for IG.

Anyway, here some food for thought:

Combat madness will be insanely good with a 20s duration and so much speed increase. It would need +0.5 speed max, duration of 10s, or duration of 20s but you cannot retreat out of it.

Chosen Marines have way too high DPS, both ranged and melee. Plus I don't want melee resistance for ranged units. And they're incredibly cheap for 450/40.

You cannot make an ammo that reduces MS, it will be insanely OP. Ofc you can try to tweak it, make the effet not stack for too long etc, but in the end it would be too much work for introducing a mechanism whose unique purpose is to deny melee, in a game that has already so much trouble keeping melee effective.

[Arbit]

Could possessed marines be worked in as a vanguardesque T3 upgrade to raptors?

As far as the chosen go, don't MoT CSM fulfill the anti infantry role pretty well? And I agree with Asmon, they seem too cheap. The energy drain ammo would also murder support commanders pretty hard (think of the apo especially).

[Forestradio]

These look pretty sweet. Obviously they need to be balanced/tweaked etc, but both ideas seem solid.

I also like the suggestion of the possessed marines being a T3 vangaurd style upgrade to raptors.

[Broodwich]

make possessed upgrade from KCSM
make chosen upgrade from TCSM
bada bing

[Orkfaeller]

I allways wished for possessed in DoWII, used to me by favourite Chaos unit back in DoW days. Just could never come up with an idea how to make them fit here.

Cant we just take the chosen for upgraded CSMs? Allways thought the little chaos stars around their hands wasnt the most obvious thing ever.

Hm, but I guess could be weird if they get a mark and completly change their look a second time. :/

I just dont want them to become Chaos Sternguard. The races are allready to similar for my taste to begin with.

[Orkfaeller]

What about giving Possessed some Demon traits?

Like getting the worship bonus normal CSM dont get?
Maybe even make them immune to supression?

Think stuff like that would make them stand out alot more and saves them from beeing just another Khorne Marine unit.

___________________________________________________________________

Uh, or MAYBE we could have them spawn a Blood Letter on Death? Like them Deamon breaking out when his host body gets destroyed?

Edit: Sry for double

[sk4zi]

make possessed upgrade from KCSM
make chosen upgrade from TCSM
bada bing

word!

and

What about giving Possessed some Demon traits?

Like getting the worship bonus normal CSM dont get?
Maybe even make them immune to supression?

Think stuff like that would make them stand out alot more and saves them from beeing just another Khorne Marine unit.

___________________________________________________________________

Uh, or MAYBE we could have them spawn a Blood Letter on Death? Like them Deamon breaking out when his host body gets destroyed?

Edit: Sry for double

word!


this would make them cost that much and make them as good as they should be ...

[Kvek]

I don't like this, Chaos is already a powerful faction, they don't need anything that is here.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

They seem cool, the Chosen model looks fantastic too. The Nurgle ammo seems a bit UP to simply negate HP regen. Aside from the Warboss Angry Bitz and Painboy heals, it rarely makes a difference in an engagement but rather allows units to get back into the fight quicker afterwards. That's my take anyway. Perhaps a speed debuff for the Nurgle ammo.

AFAIK Chosen in the latest codex are not ambushers/infiltrators, were they before? They are almost exactly like Sternguard iirc; marines with two attacks that can take almost every weapon option.

I think the Possessed should be a global maybe, making you choose between them and Termies initially. Maybe give them a trait specific to the commander? I can see them being pretty nasty but they are expensive as you propose them.

The Nurgle Ammo it's situational, of course. But depends of the values and the design. There isn't the same 0,15 less health regeneration which affects only the attacked model or the entire squad.

This ammo is designed to counter health regeneration wargear abilities. You mentioned the Angry Bitz or the Painboy's heal. But I was thinking about the Medbunker/LG Health regeneration armor, the Relay Beacon health regen aura, the LRR and LRC health reg auras, Nurgle Workshipp, Zoantrophe health regen aura, high HP regen commander wargear (like the BC tanky build).... Also, negating the own health regeneration can help you with squad/commander wipes.

Maybe I was wrong with the Chosen Marines' role in TT.

I don't like very much the global idea, but I like the "chaos gift" idea you suggested in our conversation on Steam (different upgrades which give differents buffs). They are pretty expensive, true, but can kill everything in melee combat except Lighting Claws Terminators (and depending of the situation, Nobz and Seer Council).

I love the Chosen Model, I'm so glad Shuma came around to finally releasing it. (At least the helmet and shoulderpads). It's too bad he stopped modding completely tho.

However, I've been more in favor of maybe tieing them up with another rank unlock instead (possibly) or "DLC" oriented unlock.

Unit implementations are always a nuissance. And it's espicially aggrovating that there's alot of modding love for Chaos/Space Marines in particular, whereas other factions gets little appriciation. Eventho they've got alot of potential, they're alot harder to implement since there's less re-useage of animations/models compared to Space Marine/Chaos stuff.

Some new stuff, depending on the design of the unit, and how it develops the playstyle/meta of the game might require other factions to get new units. However, so far this hasn't been "completely" the case. Since you can still utilize the same old - same old stuff, to keep yourself still in the game.

I have to admit that all my contributions are for the Chaos army. It's my favourite faction, and as you said, since there's a lot of models for Chaos, it's much more easier to combine, copy, paste, edit and create new models.

In ELITE, in terms of balance and new models, IMHO all armies have received more or less the same love (oook, some races less love than others).

The way I created/designed both units/squads makes them regulated themselves, to avoid possible meta problems:

- Possesed Marines: use them in a wrong way and you can simply see how to lose a expensive squad using Combat Madness in the wrong time.
- Chosen Marines: use the incorrect ammunition and see how you are buffing the enemy against you, or don't take care about change to the non-energy-consume-no-additional-effect ammunition and see how you can't use a specific ammo because you are out of energy, which is a big problem, because Chaos don't have any way to increase the energy regeneration of the Chosen Marines.

I'm clearly against adding new units atm, except perhaps for IG.

Anyway, here some food for thought:

Combat madness will be insanely good with a 20s duration and so much speed increase. It would need +0.5 speed max, duration of 10s, or duration of 20s but you cannot retreat out of it.

Chosen Marines have way too high DPS, both ranged and melee. Plus I don't want melee resistance for ranged units. And they're incredibly cheap for 450/40.

You cannot make an ammo that reduces MS, it will be insanely OP. Ofc you can try to tweak it, make the effet not stack for too long etc, but in the end it would be too much work for introducing a mechanism whose unique purpose is to deny melee, in a game that has already so much trouble keeping melee effective.

At the moment, and without other change, Possesed Marines in Combat Madness state can be knockbacked, can be suppressed and you lose control of the squad, so you can't retreat them because, in essence, you don't control them. No mention the HP losed for the ability duration: 180 per model. That's the reasons of the high damage and speed bonus, and the long duration of the ability. If the squad will become inmune to suppression under Combat Madness, of course they'll be nerfs.

The Chosen Marine's melee damage I think should be lowered, you have right. But I disagree about erase the melee resistance aura, or lowered too much the ranged dps. Reducing too much their ranged dps will make them underperform in their role, and more when Chaos don't have too much ways to increase their DPS.

They are as cheap as Plague Marines, for example. Have in mind that they aren't Sternguard, which all the ammunition types come for free with the squad: every specialized "ammo" needs a independent upgrade, which increases the squad cost.

Oh, the Melee Skill and the % chances of special attack. All depends of the values, IMHO. If 1 per hit it's too much, we could reduce it to 0.5, for example. All consist in test it and see how much affect the combat, since there are no precedents in DOW2 with abilities that reduce MS.

Could possessed marines be worked in as a vanguardesque T3 upgrade to raptors?

As far as the chosen go, don't MoT CSM fulfill the anti infantry role pretty well? And I agree with Asmon, they seem too cheap. The energy drain ammo would also murder support commanders pretty hard (think of the apo especially).

Of course they could., but I don't like the homogenization of CSM and SM squads. And Caeltos I think will agree with me, AFAIK.

A full TCSM squad do like 87,12 dps against Infantry armor, so they do great damage against infantry. The problem? IMHO They aren't enough cost effective against them, meanwhile they are very cost effective against HI and SHI.

Again, for 450-40 you have the Chosen Marines without any specialized ammo. If you want a specific one, you have to unlock it buying the adequate upgrade.

These look pretty sweet. Obviously they need to be balanced/tweaked etc, but both ideas seem solid.

I also like the suggestion of the possessed marines being a T3 vangaurd style upgrade to raptors.

The T3 vanguard style for Chaos Raptors should be the Warp Talons, which are Raptors but even more crazy and corrupted.

make possessed upgrade from KCSM
make chosen upgrade from TCSM
bada bing

With this implementation, Possesed Marines will almost a no-brain upgrade: LOTS of more health, damage against all targets, a great ability, same speed...

But Chosen Marines..

I allways wished for possessed in DoWII, used to me by favourite Chaos unit back in DoW days. Just could never come up with an idea how to make them fit here.

Cant we just take the chosen for upgraded CSMs? Allways thought the little chaos stars around their hands wasnt the most obvious thing ever.

Hm, but I guess could be weird if they get a mark and completly change their look a second time. :/

I just dont want them to become Chaos Sternguard. The races are allready to similar for my taste to begin with.


What about giving Possessed some Demon traits?

Like getting the worship bonus normal CSM dont get?
Maybe even make them immune to supression?

Think stuff like that would make them stand out alot more and saves them from beeing just another Khorne Marine unit.

___________________________________________________________________

Uh, or MAYBE we could have them spawn a Blood Letter on Death? Like them Deamon breaking out when his host body gets destroyed?

Edit: Sry for double

word!

and

word!

this would make them cost that much and make them as good as they should be ...

For that reason I don't like the Chosen Marines becomes a Chaos Sternguard squad style.

I would like to give Possesed Marines the Daemon unit, with Workshipp healing and suppression inmunity.

But now take a minute and think about this: would you like to face a Nobz Squad with permanent suppression inmunity and being healed by 10 hp per second per member? And with an ability which increases their damage and speed?

The Bloodleter spawn on death is cool, though.

I don't like this, Chaos is already a powerful faction, they don't need anything that is here.

Beware, that's a dangerous argument. Was IG T3 so weak to be necessary implement a doped Stoormtroopers squads (Karkrins)? Was Tyrannids so weak to be necessary implement a HI/SHI ranged melt squad (Doom of Malan'tai)?

Thanks to all for your opinions and ideas.

Some changes:
- Chosen Marines ranged dps lowered from 19 to 18dps
- Chosen Marines melee dps lowered from 26 to 19

[Dineil]

Just saw the Warp Talons! They seem awesome! They should be an upgrade available for raptors when they reach a certain level (dont even know if thats even possible). I have no idea about balance and stuff so take this as just a fun and pointless comment! Carry on gentlemen

[FunkyMonkey]

I really like these ideas, but I'm going to have to agree with Kvek and Asmon. The factions generally don't need new units.

Personally, I never liked bloodletters, bloodcrushers, and the GUO, and I prefer possessed as the closest thing to chaos-kin that a CSM army (and not a chaos army) would get. I was thinking, in the highly unlikely and unnecessary event that one or both of those were going to be implemented, I think chosen should be a unit with possessed being an upgrade. In this case, the possessed would under normal circumstances fight with power melee before getting some sort of demonic strength ability that when activated gives them heavy melee and the demonic traits we associate with the Bloodletters. However, I think chosen are really hard to fit in given we essentially have Khorne chosen and Tzeentch chosen in the form of KCSM and TCSM, and I don't really see the need for the other chosen. If we were going to make chosen like tabletop chosen and give them infiltrate plus the ability to buy either flamers, meltaguns, or plasma guns, then there would be some difference. But still, that's OP and redundant considering the other units in the CSM roster.

[FunkyMonkey]

Sorry for double post, but come to think about it, the Possessed could be a workable replacement for the bloodletters. Chaos now have two jump infantry units, and replacing bloodletters with possessed that have daemon kin properties could bring that back down to one.

The only question if that route were taken would be how to make it so that the possessed don't compete with KCSM in the brawler role, since Bloodletters are rather lean without worship support (though less so with their insta-teleport charge and the health buff)

[Indrid]

None of the factions need anything. I don't think that's really the point of adding things at this stage. Adding new units expands on the game and opens up new possibilities, refreshes the meta and just makes things more fun. What's wrong with that? We are well over a year from Relic's dropped support and Elite has moved quite a way away from Retail in many ways. I don't get the instant "OMG we don't need this balance the game first!!" panic that comes along with 9/10 of suggestions here. Let us not kid ourselves; Elite Mod is a sure-footed but still small community. Ultra-competitiveness and eSport-level exacting balance can be limiting to some game experiences. More "cool" stuff will get more core 40k fans playing and trying out Elite.

Mr. Asmon, nay-sayer of seemingly every additive idea ever - has not even played Elite Mod for..... months?

Of course, Caeltos would always do his utmost to balance any new units that are added if it ever happens, so I don't think it's worth worrying about the minute specifics of Nikhel's ideas - rather you should see them as something to consider with an open mind, given some of the high quality assets that are available. Of course, things shouldn't just be added simply because it has a good model, and I also think there should be some parity over the quantity of things added for each faction - but this is of course limited by assets.

IMO, the state of balance in Elite is pretty damn good right now. I feel like people constantly overreact to things that crop up before moving onto something else. I remember commenting about how I thought the Weirdboy's Warp Vomit should be reduced to a 3-4 second stun or something and everyone thought I was crazy (it's on these forums somewhere) - and now it's the "in" thing for everyone to throw up arms about. When I first started playing Elite everyone thought Eldar were weak and nobody talked about webway gates at all, now they are "OMG game-breaking WTF!". Oh they are? Go and enter the Monthly tournament as all the Eldar heroes and win it with gates then. Or go in with all the Orks and win it with Weirdboy then. Apart from the 2v2 tournament I did, Eldar have not done that well in the tournaments from what I remember off the top of my head.

Anyway, went off-topic a bit. Just wish some people here would relax a bit and try and have some fun with this game. We don't even have matchmaking - chill out a bit.

Nikhel: keep up the cool ideas!

[Broodwich]

Yeah TCSM dont really need an upgrade, but you could throw them in if you really wanted.

Its KCSM that could use the upgrade honestly. Ive always found them lacking, especially since you have raptors and BL that do it better. I've only gotten them when I'm screwing around

[Kvek]

Its KCSM that could use the upgrade honestly. Ive always found them lacking, especially since you have raptors and BL that do it better. I've only gotten them when I'm screwing around

No
KCSM are great, you just don't have to use them as a tank.
Raptors do it better ? What do they better ? KCSM can stomp other t1 melee units to the ground with no problem, and can even do high damage to others.

[Lulgrim]

Frankly the game is too buggy and unreliable for eSports-type competitiveness, regardless of design choices, and it's getting quite old (4.5 years!) as well. I think keeping up interest (and hence a player base) can be a valid reason for additions at this point.

No strong opinion about these units specifically.

Current Chaos roster being good is a poor reason for fully dismissing additions. It's not like you can just have them for free on top of any previous composition. Of course it makes the priority low.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

another possibility is to change the way current units work in order to make things more fluffy or interesting. example, removing tcsm, changing them to something that still fills their role, but somewhat differently, and then adding them back in the form of thousand suns, a unit specific to the CS. the problem with that is that we start to diverge a lot from retail and that has quite a few negative consequences. trying to fit in new stuff around current things can be really tricky though.

[sk4zi]

in my opinion the ´point is not if chaos needs anything, but if it can have it ...

there is a very cool looking model, there is fluff for that, it would be a shame not to use it.
certainly you are right. Chaos does actually neither need another melee squad, although its lacks Heavy_melee damage imho. nor it needs another anti all range squad.

so what to do?

removing cool looking things like Bloodletters or Tzeentch marines isnt any good solution unless chaos gets huge changes (like CL has Letters, Sorc has TCSM, PM has PMs)
but this would require much efford.
nonetheless the cool models of nikhel should not disapear completely.

thats why upgrade ...

i dont think that Chosens should be an own sqad because of the problem of just having to many units to purchase ...
nobody would use them because you have allready tcsm anti all ranged which comes from T1 marines.

but a new idea:

chosen could be a 3rd upgrade for CSM
mark of the undevined chaos or so ...

also this would enable to do the thing mentioned in the brackets.

[Panda]

None of the factions need anything. I don't think that's really the point of adding things at this stage. Adding new units expands on the game and opens up new possibilities, refreshes the meta and just makes things more fun.

I don't think units should be added for the sake of it, but I agree it is fun to try new things out and it's important to keep the meta evolving. On that note I would make chosen an Army Level 60 unlock for CSM.

Think Possessed are the better idea for a new unit - a fast melee superiority squad but vulnerable to knockback, suppression, plasma, etc. sounds like it has a lot of potential.

[Nurland]

You mean as a cosmetic only change like the CL sword or a real, new unit to the roster? Because frankly having an entirely new unit as army lvl unlock sounds like a very bad idea.

[Panda]

a cosmetic only change like the CL sword

[Flash]

No army unlocks (units) at a level please? I'm not level 60 and as a college student I don't have the time to level every single faction to 60 just in order to get to use new units. This would be disadvantageous for anyone new coming in or anyone who doesn't play as much

[FiSH]

army level only unlocks cosmetic changes, not the actual units.
(so basically, your same old unit will just look fancier)

[Lulgrim]

Nurland you noob

[Nurland]

Well I do know that they unlock only cosmetic changes and so on but I've read quite a few weird suggestions in these forums so I just wanted to make sure I understood it correctly.

Feel free to address me as "Noobland" from here on out.

[Panda]

It seems there have been a lot of suggestions for new units in the past - some with merit, some just nonsense...

What is the thought process that goes behind a unit before it is introduced? Since I think we've passed the stage where x race is desperate for a counter to y (e.g Eldar to SHI, hence Dark Reapers). Is it at the point where there is a case for adding a new unit if it has obvious counters, is different enough from current units and will not overshadow existing units for their race?

I'm not a fan of adding things for the sake of it, but if a quality model exists, with animations and effectively ready for use then it would be a shame if it was not at least debated rather than just see the models wasted

[Orkfaeller]

Make Chosen a visual upgrade for eternal War CSM?