Tau unit ideas

[sk4zi]

due to the Fact that tzhe Fire Caste is just the Standard of the Tau Units i would more like the Tau Firewarriors not as starting Squad but the second one costing no power.

i would give them a very short setup time like snipers have and damage like abut kraken bolts. but not more Range than other squads have.
additionally a T2 upgrade which increases their range up to about what a setup team has.
also a Leader upgrade which is expensive and removes their setup time.
and a drone upgrade which works like the shield upgrade of IG HWTs (prevent knockback at being jumped)

so the fire Warriors remain the main damage tool of the Tau but are not easy to use and not overkilling in T1

[SecureHades]

Hmmm I think for Fire Warriors, they should be T2 units, since the plasma weps would be quite OP in T1 (would melt SM, CSM and so on). Not so much in T2, where the game is more balanced with heavy hitting weapons.

For T1, I think we could use:
1. Pathfinders --- they are technically the mirrors of Scouts ^^ The pulse carbine is not considered as a plasma weapon, so it wont be a problem. They could also use a stealth mechanic like scouts so they wont die if an enemy looks on them XD

Possible upgrades: Shas'ui, Rail Rifle, Shield or Gun drone (they often field-test new ones ^^)

So if Pulse carbines dont count as plasma weapons, why not give them to firewarriors as a t1 weapon, but they just do more damage than the pathfinder ones (like SM scouts<Tac bolters), Up to my knowledge its possible to outfit firewarriors in pulse carbines, and then in t2 you can upgrade the squad to pulse rifles for a req/power cost

Also on the note of T2 Firewarriors, no, please dont. From my understanding of this game, T1 is where you get all your general infantry that you will use all game ( tacs, shootas, guardsmen, ect) and then T2 is for the more specialized units that fit into different scenarios. I stated above theres a way to balance them for t1, and personally i would rather get some battlesuits in t2 then having to worry about getting the main part of my army there

[fok12]

Since Fire Warriors are the base of any Tau army, according to fluff, they should be in T1 as a basic ranged unit. We could just not follow the lore that Tau have plasma weaponry and stick with plain piercing DPS. I mean, Eldar Dire Avengers have Shuriken Catapults that, in the lore/tabletop can wound pretty much anything non-vehicle, so why not move them to T2? Same with Catachans. There is no mention that they can all carry power weapons, but still they have Power melee in the game. Another example, Grey Knights. They all carry power/force weapon yet they do normal melee in the game because that would break the balance.
My point is that we don't have to follow the 40k lore in order to built the game, and in responce to the Vespid unit, what is the point of having a dedicated ranged unit in T1 jumping around?

[Kilgarn]

Actually solid point...

Usually its not always a good idea to stick to the tabletop rules when you play around with game balance in a PC game X) And yea, Fire Warriors can be equipped with pulse carbines. But I think their full potential lies with their rifle
Anyways, good points with the T1 units are the bread n' butter infantry + plasma weps not nececerally NEED to be plasma type x)

Though, if we want to give them a tearup-down time to get as a drawback for longer range + dmg, then they would be the same idea as a setup team... that wont make them as mobile as they should be. Though, with the Gun Drones + pathfinders, they'd had the mobility the faction need
Its still a though call, to how to make the line-ups for each tier for the Tau =) Since all the other faction's T1-T3 needs to be considered.
However, I think the Eldar unit line is quite nice idea to use as a base :3 since their fighting style is quite similar :3

[fok12]

So, how about this: Fire Warriors have a set-up time as a cost for superior range and firepower, but when they fire at a marked unit (through the Pathfinders for example) that set-up time is negated. (In addition to any other effects it may have).
That gives you a solid T1 ranged unit + synergy with another unit to make it even more effective.

[Black Relic]

All good idea. I think a small set-up time for Fire Warriors would be a decent way to help balance Tau in t1 if they deal a bit of ranged dps. But until we hear what Caeltos has on the Tau army in question, i think we have hit a dead end atm. Even though good idea are coming for everyone (Since I would use them).

So me and probably the rest of the players eagerly await your mass wall of text for Tau Empire.

[ThongSong]

I personally don't feel with need another kill-everything eldar-like race in the game.

[Kilgarn]

Well... Tau is not an Eldar with different skin. They play out quite differently.
Their melee is technically non-existant, which makes this race quite hard to play, since it relies on fast micro. Kroots and vespids wont really hold the fort...
They are the perfect guerilla warfare race tho :3 with the lot of hit-and-run units and lot of the units have jump jets making them hard to catch if played well ^^
I'm looking forward how it will look like :3

[fok12]

Plus we will have EPIC portraits for the units

[krakza]

On the whole lore-wise plasma weapons thing - we could always refer to the tabletop?
My thought process is that plasma damage represents the low AP value of the plasma gun in tabletop - which denies all armour saves. Despite being plasma weaponry, Tau pulse weapons have the AP of a Boltgun. The only difference is range and strength.
So not giving them plasma damage isn't that much against the lore imo.

That said, I haven't kept up with Tau rules since last edition, so maybe something has changed since then?

[sk4zi]

i dont think it became suddenly plasma with AP 2 thou

think about t2 upgrades ... tzeentch bolters can also be a good Indicator

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

I'm stunned, all the talk about breaking Tau lore in half and making Fire warriors terminator-slow with glass armor and setup times, I'm just stunned.
(Making Fire Warriors tier2 is like making Tactical Marines tier2)
I was both crying and shouting out in despair at all you people suggesting to break the Tau Race at every possible turn.

The basic answers for Tau in tier1 are simple you just don't see it: Tau Tier 1

Basic ranged squad: Pathfinders 250 req, similar to SM scouts but at 4 models, RailRifle as sniper upgrade, + drone + markerlights (possibly tier2 upgrade)

Heavy Ranged unit: Fire Warriors 400 req, 5 models from stock, similar to CSM or SM Tac but has much lower armor/health has a decent sight of range, however does not match their full weapon range which should be a bit longer, CAN FIRE ON THE MOVE. Does not do plasma damage. Has different upgrades Shas'ui(tier2) grants photon grenades which stuns and does damage in a small area, Gun drone(tier2) adds more fire power to the squad

Kroot Mercenaries 350/40 cost, 6-7 models from stock. Melee unit with light ranged damage, can get upgrades that make them infiltrate while standing still or as an energy drain while moving.

And some kind of drone suppression squad like Caeltos mentioned, (what the hell is this about burrowing drones? Don't copy DoW1's mistakes)
We should try to make Tau as close to the Lore while still making them balanced to the game, not take them on a sidetrack like they did in DoW1.

I place my faith in Caeltos not to make some lazy DoW1 copy-paste like you, other guys suggested. But I think it's safe to assume implementing Tau into Elite will either make or brake the Mod.

I have spoken.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

Subject: Tau Commander DLC assets.

It would be a waste if you did not use these assets to make a Tau race for DoW2. Every time I look at them in TLS I feel it has been wasted on only TLS when it should have been used for so much more, I don't know the legal ramifications about this but I urge you to find out, I'm sure the development team who made the Tau commander DLC would be happy if their assets were reused for more than just TLS.

It would help shape the entire faction and create the jump start in making the assets for the entire race. Please do not let it go to waste.

[Torpid]

^

I haven't even bothered entering this discussion because it's so stupid.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

^

I haven't even bothered entering this discussion because it's so stupid.

I care too much about the Tau to ignore this blatant rabble of ignorance.

Tau should have a 3 man Crisis suit team like I suggested in my earlier post such a squad would fit well into the current game meta and make Tau stand out from the other factions, the XV8 crisis suit is not a heavy dread-like walker like the way they made it in DoW1. (The idea is having a ranged jumping squad like the Warpspiders but with heavy infantry armor like space marines with varies weapon upgrades, that can disrupt and support while still being able to soak up some ranged damage.)

Heavy infantry in DoW2 is made up of 3 models and so should the Crisis team, like any other SM type unit in the game and possibly also the XV88,(the Wraithguard is also 3 models and they are blatantly OP against most enemy infantry yet they've been kept the way they are even in Elite.) the old model would fit way better into the game meta, than the new bulky behemoth 'mark II' they came up with, besides DoW2 was made long before the new codices and rules.

3 model heavy infantry Battlesuit type infantry would make much more sense for DoW2 than a single model squad.

We need to be logical about this people if Caeltos can really do this, we need to stop the non-sense talk. From what I can gather of your suggestions, you're asking that we get a DoW1 Tau into DoW2, but that will neither fit into the meta or be enjoyable to anyone.

Purge your minds of what you think the Tau should be like and look at it through DoW2 eyes, we're going to make Tau for DoW2 not something else.

And as for the Main Hero of the Race... Use the DLC Commander, he is an obvious choice, the "XV8 Command Pattern armor" is ideal since it's inspired by the old XV8 Crisis Suit Commander model from the Tabletop, there's no reason to try and use some sort of XV22 model when we already have a Hero model ready to go.

You need to use these assets, it will only promote the game, at this point it can't possibly hurt the developer's economy that they are used outside of the DLC.
Ask permission to the people in-charge, if Tau fans are convinced that a high quality version of their favorite race is implemented into this still fairly modern RTS engine, I have no doubt they'll purchase the game, thus making the retailers money. Money is what it's all about isn't it, when it's these type of issues?

[Caeltos]

1. Not making copy-paste Tau from DoW1. It doesn't make sense either, because they're two vastly different games anyway.

2. Not quite comfortable with the idea using the Tau DLC assets without permission. I've asked, but the response has been shakey and uncertain.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

1. Not making copy-paste Tau from DoW1. It doesn't make sense either, because they're two vastly different games anyway.

2. Not quite comfortable with the idea using the Tau DLC assets without permission. I've asked, but the response has been shakey and uncertain.

Good that you are not considering any of these silly requests.

It's still a waste in my eyes they were not used for more than just the TLS game-mode, I will be disappointed if they are not used for a multiplayer race, truely.
However I understand your concern, we wouldn't want that you suddenly had a lawsuit on your hand because you went ahead and used them without permission.
But again, I still say it's a waste.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

I'm curious about something Caeltos, you dismissed to use the DLC assets (with reason) but I know even with those assets they're not going to make an entire race, so where are these assets coming from? I know you're an experienced modder but you can't possibly be modeling and animating all these assets by yourself, so how were you going to get the assets to make an entire Tau race? I couldn't imagine you'd recycle those poorly converted models from DoW1 like the Destroyer mod did, were you?
(The Tau vehicles were way too over-sized in that mod, every Hammerhead chassis was the size of a Baneblade, and the Hammerhead Gunship was the Baneblade!!
For the sake of gameplay mechanics Tau vehicles shouldn't be bigger than their Imperial equivalents, besides they're about the same size miniature model wise anyway.)

PS. You should still go ahead and use the Burst cannon tracers!

[Caeltos]

However I understand your concern, we wouldn't want that you suddenly had a lawsuit on your hand because you went ahead and used them without permission.

I don't think this is ever going to happend however. There will be community backlash, lots and lots of paper work and what-have-you.

But like I said, I've asked, and there's been people questioning about the useage of the DLC content, but it's always been confusing and rather vague in a sense, that they don't know if it's permitted or not, or if they can do anything about it.

I think there are other mods anyway that have utilized some content of the DLC either way, or broken some of the "mod rule" boundaries, but have had no repercussions at all. I truely think anyone can use it and nobody at this point will really care.

The continued development between SEGA and Relic might of course change this. But seeing as there's been no news on the DOW/Warhammer side of things, it's really anyones guess what will happend.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

I'm still not entirely sure on the ramifications regarding these issues but I hope you know best, I'd suggest trying to ask the top, right at SEGA about permission to use their assets for a mod (that could promote the game), but I'd leave the decision up to you.
On the matter though, when you're referring to other mods which have used the assets to it's fullest which mods are you talking about? I know of the "Warpstorm over Aurelia" which I posted a screenshot of in the other Tau related thread a few weeks ago, but that mod died out before it got anywhere, and I know it's not illegal to mess around with any game/mod assets as long as you keep it to yourself. So what mods are you talking about? (Only thing I can find when I search for Tau mod content in DoW2 is the Destroyer mod assets and a skin job made for the Lord General, but not any use of the DLC assets)

Your reply still didn't answer my other question, what assets are you going to use for the Race? Or as I'm probably assuming; you're keeping this a secret until further notice?

[krakza]

i dont think it became suddenly plasma with AP 2 thou

think about t2 upgrades ... tzeentch bolters can also be a good Indicator

Not trying to be funny, but I have no idea what you just said.

[Kilgarn]

I'm stunned, all the talk about breaking Tau lore in half and making Fire warriors terminator-slow with glass armor and setup times, I'm just stunned.
(Making Fire Warriors tier2 is like making Tactical Marines tier2)
I was both crying and shouting out in despair at all you people suggesting to break the Tau Race at every possible turn.

The basic answers for Tau in tier1 are simple you just don't see it: Tau Tier 1
...

With all due respect, I dont think bashing other people would lead to a solid conversation. It wont concer me, since I do know I'm not an expert on Tau, even though I quite like them, so there might be others with a better knowledge out there So I accept if I'm corrected.
I dont wanted to copy-paste DoW1 either, since this game works quite differently. Still it had good ideas that the sequel borrowed here and there.
Either way, I'm quite curious what Caeltos will make out of it

On the DLC: I agree, without permission it would be silly to use it. Still, I'm not sure how serious are they taking on DoW2 support and whatnot at SEGA. Since as Cael mentioned, there wasnt any indication or a quote that would say they are working on this title anymore. Still there is a possibility of a DoW3 but thats years later.

[sk4zi]

is it possible to make the tau only available for people who have the dlc?
just for the copyright issue.

what i was talking about krakza was that tau should not have plasma rifles in the new rules suddenly
i think its still: S 5, AP 4-5, 30" Range, isnt it ?

so Tau T1:

Starting Unit:
- Pathfinders (210/0) 3 Models, quick movement, scout damage and range, Upgrade for infiltration,
Upgrade for Sergant with grenade (which either stops using skills, or is like smoke, or does damage)

Possible T2 Upgrades:
- Melta typ wheapons
- Mark Target skill (maybe in T1)
- better infiltration
- offmap calls


No Power Cost Unit:
- Firewarriors (400req ) 4 Models, small setuptime, light supression, Tac damage, Tac Range,

possible T2 Upgrades:
- remove Setup
- more Range
- more damage
- more suppression

maybe not all of them at once. .. eg. maximum 2 of them

Power Cost units:
- Ghosts (250/30), infiltrate, Jump, short Range, IG Flamer Type (bot not looking) wheapon(?)

T2: melter Type wheapons, AV Grenade,

- (Drones (210/10) Jump, Short Range, medium survivability, Dmg restistance Aura)
T2: improved Aura

- (Kroots - dont know the new rules for them )

someth. like that ...

this would play out different to all other races because the main damage dealers are setups. and the utility comes from short Range but Jump units.
i would like it

it has Setup counters either with supressing them, jump them with ghosts and tie up or just flank them with 2 infil units.
the only thing missing is a retreat kill option but hey, they´re a range race ... dont know how to manage that.

but ofc there are many other ways to go.

kroots eg. are not in my thought.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

With all due respect, I dont think bashing other people would lead to a solid conversation. It wont concer me, since I do know I'm not an expert on Tau, even though I quite like them, so there might be others with a better knowledge out there So I accept if I'm corrected.
I dont wanted to copy-paste DoW1 either, since this game works quite differently. Still it had good ideas that the sequel borrowed here and there.
Either way, I'm quite curious what Caeltos will make out of it

Believe me when I say I restrained myself from bashing you, I was quite frankly stunned, your suggestions were downright to ruin the Tau, in a sense that it was supposed to be made for a competitive multiplayer mod for DoW2.

And Sk4zi will you stop with the bloody setup times and low model count? Putting setup times on basic infantry is nearly as bad as giving them plasma damage in tier1.
This isn't Dawn of War 1, it was bad enough how they balanced it out in DoW1, I rather have lower dps for the trade of mobility (mobility being very Tau-like) than a slow-setup squad that does ridiculous amounts of damage but is easily countered by any unit able to make it close enough to use melee on it(like in DoW1) .

On the subject of proper Tau suggestions I've come up with an idea for a heavy infantry squad: The XV88 Broadside Battlesuit team.
My first thought was putting them Tier2 as an equivalent to the Wraithguard but it just seemed too Strong. So I think they are best reserved for Tier3.

The idea is having a heavy support squad aka Artillery/Long range Anti vehicle support.
Their Stats would be something like these:
Tier - 3
Unit Model XV88 Broadside Battlesuit team
Squad count 3.
Role: They would be a mixture of Artillery and Anti vehicle (but with no snare).
Price 500/100
They would fire their Smart Missile systems un-deployed which would do moderate damage to infantry. And they would be able to deploy like a regular setup team(with a firing arch) to bring to bare their back-mounted railguns, which would act as an anti vehicle weapon/ counter to super heavy infantry.

I think this unit would fit well as an addition to the Tau in DoW2 and make an interesting change from the current game builds.

[krakza]

what i was talking about krakza was that tau should not have plasma rifles in the new rules suddenly
i think its still: S 5, AP 4-5, 30" Range, isnt it ?

Oh I see! Well I didn't exactly think they'd get plasma rifles as such, but there's a few army-specific special rules coming in this edition so I wasn't sure if Tau had gotten one for their weapons or anything It's probably the same as before yeah.

And Shas'el, I'm sorry but I'm going to second what Kilgarn said. We get it - you don't like what's been suggested and are adamant it would "ruin" Tau.
Constantly coming across in messages as snarky and "GRRR ME NO LIKEY" isn't helping.

[Panda]

Sorry if I'm intruding and I don't wish to be rude, but reading some other threads on the site it appears the consensus is that lore, although important, needs to be second to balance?

I think that, although it is good for fans of a race to get what they want, their every desire for the way they want that race to play cannot, and should not, be followed.

I appreciate your passion for the Tau, Shas'el, but I believe whatever changes are necessary must be made even if it means hurting Tau lore. Caeltos has done wonders to take the modification this far. I have not always agreed with his changes, but I realise deep down that they are for "The Greater Good" of balance, advancing the mod both positively and thoughtfully, which is what has kept this game alive.

So I think you too Shas'el should be a little more compromising on matters involving the implementation of the Tau - everyone wants to see them, but nobody wants to see them as a broken race. The Tau do everything for "The Greater Good", so perhaps you might consider taking a leaf out of their book rather than simply knocking people down.

But that's just my two cents.

[SecureHades]

Sorry if I'm intruding and I don't wish to be rude, but reading some other threads on the site it appears the consensus is that lore, although important, needs to be second to balance?

I think that, although it is good for fans of a race to get what they want, their every desire for the way they want that race to play cannot, and should not, be followed.

I appreciate your passion for the Tau, Shas'el, but I believe whatever changes are necessary must be made even if it means hurting Tau lore. Caeltos has done wonders to take the modification this far. I have not always agreed with his changes, but I realise deep down that they are for "The Greater Good" of balance, advancing the mod both positively and thoughtfully, which is what has kept this game alive.

So I think you too Shas'el should be a little more compromising on matters involving the implementation of the Tau - everyone wants to see them, but nobody wants to see them as a broken race. The Tau do everything for "The Greater Good", so perhaps you might consider taking a leaf out of their book rather than simply knocking people down.

But that's just my two cents.

See panda, Yes lore is second to balance, i mean we would have SM just never dying cause of power armor and 1 shot bolters, but theres a difference from balancing, and completely straying away from the concept and lore of the army.

Example: Lots of people have suggested tau have a small set up time for firewarriors to compensate for there damage. No. The whole idea of Tau is a fast, mobile ranged army, to make your backbone infantry have a setup time, makes them not able to kite, and any melee who catch them will go to town, which makes them unTau like.

To people who are big fans of the Tau (myself included) this would make them not want to play tau, cause this isnt tau, just an army with there skin. You do have to put some lore elements away from an army for the sake of balance, but to throw the concept the army has away, then your going too far. Its like asking orkz to not be good at melee.

[Torpid]

Exactly. If the race simply doesn't fit into the gameplay then don't add them, it's as simple as that. There's no need to add IG if relic didn't think they would balance properly. It would NOT BE ACCEPTABLE TO SEE OGRYNS WITH JUMP PACKS, or HUMAN MELEE SQUADS or SENTINELS WITH GIANT HOOK ARMS KILLING ORKS IN MELEE. Can we be sensible here? How can the base unit of any army have a set-up time, I mean wtf? Oh we're fighting IG are we, and they have no jump units, bang their army dies instantly...

[Kvek]

they would balance properly. It would NOT BE ACCEPTABLE TO SEE OGRYNS WITH JUMP PACKS

,

I remember that one guy suggested a psyker that could teleport ogryns.

[Torpid]

Hey, that fits in with the lore doesn't it? Can sanctioned psykers do that?