CSM EW AC. Idea, reasons and video inside.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Purpose: increase the melee capabilities of the non-mark CSM with AC + EW and the worthwhile of the CSM AC without having any Mark.

Introduction: CSM with AC and EW are the ranged squad with the highest melee damage in the game. His AC with EW do more damage in melee combat than an ASM or even a regular Raptor.

But, shamefully, EW AC CSM rarely can take advantage of their melee damage. AC comes in T2, when Plasma damage and Power Melee enters into the battle. EW AC CSM don't have some of the melee abilities which melee squads have: melee charge, special attacks, high melee skill, higher speed, an ability which increases the speed or the damage resistance...

EW AC CSM only have the melee aura and only the AC and can do special attacks.

Esentially, I think that the EW AC CSM are in the middle of nowhere. They do good damage in melee combat, but lacks of the melee abilities that a dedicated melee squad have. On the other hand, they do good damage in ranged combat (and more since the damage buff of the AC Bolt pistol, but it's still inferior than the CSM bolter damage) but inferior than a dedicated ranged squad one. In addition, don't have any ability which could help in their ranged or melee role.

In summary, we have a squad which are not bad in ranged and melee combat, but underperform in both roles.

Note that I'm talking about the EW AC CSM, without any mark. IMHO both marks are solid upgrades (maybe a bit more solid the MoT than the MoK) and I think are more or less balanced.

Well, that said and with the previous arguments, I'm going to explain the reasons of this buffs/changes.

- AC Charge buff
IMHO Relic designed the EW AC CSM to counter ranged squads forcing melee with them instead of counter them in a ranged firefight. Can present too a good combat against other melee squads, but a few of special attacks are enough to force the EW AC CSM to retreat. Not mention that except if the melee squad is severely wounded if they wields power_melee weapons is a suicide force melee with them.

So if part of his role is force melee with ranged squads, without charge thr chase turns into a Benny Hill persecution, because they aren't going to catch them in melee combat.

But, for his design (ranged squad with good meler damage) I reduced the charge range to 9, so the enemy squad have more possibilities to escape from melee combat or avoid retreat kills compared with any othet melee squad.

I would reduce too the charge cooldown, from 8 seconds to 12 or something like that, but for the design of the game AFAIK if I increase the value is going to affect also the MoK CSM, because the MOK upgrade affects melee skill and puts in 12 the charge range, but don't touch the charge cooldown.

This buff only affects to CSM with AC with/out EW. Don't affect CSM with any mark. MoK gives to the CSM a better charge and MoT don't need any charge, because even if they retain some good melee damage, forcing melee isn't his role.

- Brutal charge.
-Increases the speed by 2 for 5 seconds. For the duration of this ability, the CSM or the AC don't shoot their ranged weapons. Only you can use this ability if you buy the Eternal War and the Aspiring Champion upgrades but don't any mark. 60 seconds cooldown. 100 energy cost.

In the same way as the AC charge buff: increase the melee capabilities of the EW AC CSM forcing melee with enemy ranged squads.

Why this design? There are some reasons.
- Why the EW and AC and no mark requirements?
Balance. MoK CSM with Brutal Charge, even if it's fluffy and could be awesome to see, its OP. Chaos don't need a Baanshe squad with 1.5k HP with HI armor. And the MoT are well balanced and don't need a sprint.

- Why not other ability instead of this? I found this ability match well with the EW AC CSM "forcing melee" role and don't overlap with the MoT or the MoK effectivity.

- Why such an high energy cost which energy recover cost (1 energy per second -> 100 seconds more or less) is higher than the cooldown time (60 seconds)?
One is to take advantage of the energy bar, which was useless since the Chaos Rising beta (when IIRC CSM had a Kraken rounds like ability). Another reason is to allow some races to counter or buff the CSM energy bar. For example: Chaos Lord with Harness of Rage could help to recover faster his energy, or a enemy Warlock could disable Brutal Charge with the energy drain of the Merciless Witchblade and prevent to CSM to use it.

[Nurland]

I always thought that the AC had 60 melee skill? Has it been changed in Elite?

[Dark Riku]

CSM's are a ranged squad. They don't need a melee charge.
They can shoot up incoming melee charges and punish the ones who go into close combat after they got shot at. Both upgrades specialize their roles.

What added ability are you referring to? You are saying something about brutal charge and some cooldowns and energy? But I don't see any explanation about it anywhere. I also don't see the reason why they should get something like FoF even if it did cost them all their energy to use.

[crazyman64335]

i don't get it, i mean from watching the video it seems to be just a better idea to not get any marks and keep them vanilla. I mean they're above average when it comes to ranged dps, they would get a charge, and they deal a significant amount of melee DPS.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Riku, Crazyman.. have you read the wall of text that I put after the video? Because It seems for me, for the questions and arguments that you have put, apparently not.

The "Brutal Charge" ability stadistics are on the video, when I put the cursor over the ability icon.

Brutal charge:
- Increases the speed by 2 for 5 seconds. For the duration of this ability, the CSM or the AC don't shoot their ranged weapons. Only you can use this ability if you buy the Eternal War and the Aspiring Champion upgrades but don't any mark. 60 seconds cooldown. 100 energy cost.

Seriously, I don't know why it's so difficult to understand this thread. :/

[Batpimp]

I like your idea and your presentation.

Objectively though, is it necessary?I believe not.

1. Most people buy the AC after they get a mark so as to increase overall dps and health by so as to provide survivability. It is not to chase other ranged squads. let's say you did add this buff. It would only take effect in T2, because you need a AC leader. So my choices are to get mark or AC and the buff? I will still choose the mark because in t2 opponents, as you said, have power melee and many other counters. Without the ability to reinforce on the field via mobile platform I need to have very high damage so as to win fights. Which is what MoK and MoT do.

If however you are saying we should move AC to T1, so they can get the buff, I also disagree with that. For one, Chaos instant supression with HWT that would make it un needed to rush in melee since your are supressing with HWT. Tics can doomblast to avoid you having to charge and/or use barrage to give you extra hits in a battle. The heroes themselves all are capable melee counters in certain ways.

Don't get me wrong. I think your idea is "COOL" and interesting because I think it makes CSM "feel" more like Chaos than TSM. Why? because i think you added a ability which might reflect how actual CSM would act. In a rage fueled bezerk charge. Although its "cool" i dont think its necessary in the army composition in any tier for chaos.

[Dark Riku]

Riku, Crazyman.. have you read the wall of text that I put after the video? Because It seems for me, for the questions and arguments that you have put, apparently not.

Yes I fucking read your entire post.
"Seriously, I don't know why it's so difficult to understand this."

[Caeltos]

What added ability are you referring to? You are saying something about brutal charge and some cooldowns and energy? But I don't see any explanation about it anywhere

He is referring to this. The Brutal Chrage description and details are in the video.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

CSM's are a ranged squad. They don't need a melee charge.
They can shoot up incoming melee charges and punish the ones who go into close combat after they got shot at. Both upgrades specialize their roles.

What added ability are you referring to? You are saying something about brutal charge and some cooldowns and energy? But I don't see any explanation about it anywhere. I also don't see the reason why they should get something like FoF even if it did cost them all their energy to use.

Which squad is going to be forced to retreat before some ranged squad and a melee combat with EW AC CSM? Except a very wounded squad, any dedicated melee squad is going to defeat EW AC CSM in melee combat, for the CSM lack of melee abilities. Don't forget that Aspiring Champion comes in T2, when plasma and power_melee damage weapons/squads and upgrades enters into the game.

i don't get it, i mean from watching the video it seems to be just a better idea to not get any marks and keep them vanilla. I mean they're above average when it comes to ranged dps, they would get a charge, and they deal a significant amount of melee DPS.

No, it's simply going to make the Aspiring Champion upgrade worth for itself, giving to EW AC CSM squad a different role and at the same time, take advantage of their good melee combat, and not simply a "buy after you buy a mark" upgrade, like currently it's happened. At the same time, this change will work without break the KCSM/TCSM balance.

I like your idea and your presentation.

Objectively though, is it necessary?I believe not.

1. Most people buy the AC after they get a mark so as to increase overall dps and health by so as to provide survivability. It is not to chase other ranged squads. let's say you did add this buff. It would only take effect in T2, because you need a AC leader. So my choices are to get mark or AC and the buff? I will still choose the mark because in t2 opponents, as you said, have power melee and many other counters. Without the ability to reinforce on the field via mobile platform I need to have very high damage so as to win fights. Which is what MoK and MoT do.

If however you are saying we should move AC to T1, so they can get the buff, I also disagree with that. For one, Chaos instant supression with HWT that would make it un needed to rush in melee since your are supressing with HWT. Tics can doomblast to avoid you having to charge and/or use barrage to give you extra hits in a battle. The heroes themselves all are capable melee counters in certain ways.

Don't get me wrong. I think your idea is "COOL" and interesting because I think it makes CSM "feel" more like Chaos than TSM. Why? because i think you added a ability which might reflect how actual CSM would act. In a rage fueled bezerk charge. Although its "cool" i dont think its necessary in the army composition in any tier for chaos.

1. These changes are going to make, as I said, make the AC upgrade worth for itself.

If the high melee damage and the reduced ranged damage of the AC (and the CSM damage too) it's not made to force melee with other ranged squad with less melee damage, which is the purpose of his melee design?

ATM such high melee damage is almost wasted, and makes the squad less effective as it could be, since any value of his design affects to balance.

2. No, IMHO AC should stay in T2. Chaos have enough suppression team counters in T1.

[Orkfaeller]

Well, I'm not talking from a balance standpoint now,

but I think I atleast would enjoy seeing a few more "mark less" CSMs in games.

While MoK seems to be situational enough to only pop up now and then, MoT seems a bit too common // attractive to me, IMHO.

Well, maybe its just that I'm a SM player and get to face wanna-be Thousand Sons everytime but later game CSM without a mark might be quite refreshing and it might even make sense to give em those sexy new Chosen Models ( for eternal war ) that popped up some time ago.

[Tex]

I really like the brutal charge or even just giving them a charge when they have EW and AC. I always felt like my AC wasn't really an addition to my squad unless there was a mark involved.

Cool idea

[Batpimp]

"If the high melee damage and the reduced ranged damage of the AC (and the CSM damage too) it's not made to force melee with other ranged squad with less melee damage, which is the purpose of his melee design?"

here is where i think you make your best argument for giving the AC hero a buff. but Not a melee charge. what that buff would i dont know. probably something different depending if they are MoT or MoK. or maybe a generic buff like ATSKNF that the TSM get.

In fact, now that i think about it, I would love to see the MoK just get a charge distance increase like purifiers. They are woefully unused and i havent seen them be used to great effect in a long time.

[Asmon]

KCSM are extremely good atm and don't need any buff. These guys just shred everything apart, from heroes to even Nobz if they get a few levels.

If anything the AC should buff vanilla CSM, but not the marked ones.

[Torpid]

"If the high melee damage and the reduced ranged damage of the AC (and the CSM damage too) it's not made to force melee with other ranged squad with less melee damage, which is the purpose of his melee design?"

here is where i think you make your best argument for giving the AC hero a buff. but Not a melee charge. what that buff would i dont know. probably something different depending if they are MoT or MoK. or maybe a generic buff like ATSKNF that the TSM get.

In fact, now that i think about it, I would love to see the MoK just get a charge distance increase like purifiers. They are woefully unused and i havent seen them be used to great effect in a long time.

They're not used simply because they don't fit well into the chaos roster, ya know with them having one good generalist ranged unit - TCSM, but raptors, AC tics, KCSM and letters for dedicated melee. It's not that they aren't used because they're bad. They're actually great.

[Nurland]

Only thing I'd currently like to see changed is the vanilla/EW Csm AC melee skill if it is still the Retail value.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Only thing I'd currently like to see changed is the vanilla/EW Csm AC melee skill if it is still the Retail value.

I made a mistake here.

CSM AC don't have 70 melee skill, have only 60.

I've already edited in the first post.

[Forestradio]

Khorne CSM do not shred nobz unless they are heavily supported and/or pull off a ton of special attacks.

They're a good melee unit, but let's not go overboard.

[Asmon]

Level 3-4 KCSM will give level 1 Nobz a run for their money. And KCSM always do specials. Nobody's going overboard here.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

they'll also kill just about anything unsupported that is trying to move away from them.

[Tex]

Only thing wrong with KCSM is that their upgrade costs too much imo. That squad relies so heavily on having an AC to be effective, and EW is an absolute no brainer. I totally agree with Asmon however in that these guys are definitely good at their job.

You just need to know when to use them, and what with.

[Batpimp]

if they are effective yet they are hardly used, why would you guys say that is?

or maybe im thinking incorrectly about them. are they an offensive unit or defensive unit?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Great, I'm going to do offtopic in my own thread...

There are some many reasons because KCSM are rarely to see.

1. TCSM is a safer upgrade. It's more easy to bleed KCSM models than TCSM, for the KCSM nature. Where TCSM in the worse case can retreat more safely than KCSM, which usually retreat between more (melee)squads, with the danger of retreat grenades, globals, melee hits...

2. KCSM scale worse than TCSM in T3. Where the TCSM can simply shoot and run if the situation turns dangerous, KCSM have to stay in melee to do their job. And well, not sure if is a good idea to keep melee combat against Avatar, GUO, Assault Terminators with/out Lighting Claws, Nobzs, Seer Council, Genestealers with Melee synapse...

3. KCSM have some rivalry in the own Chaos roster: Bloodletters, AC Raptors, Lighting Claws Chaos Terminators... Ok, some of these squads can't do the same damage or have the same HP than KCSM, but have other abilities/characteristics which makes them more attractive to he Chaos player.

4. KCSM in ELITE have more different enemy squads which can deal with them: almost all GK roster, Vanguard Upgrade for ASM, new melee heroes builds...

[Batpimp]

Great, I'm going to do offtopic in my own thread...

There are some many reasons because KCSM are rarely to see.

1. TCSM is a safer upgrade. It's more easy to bleed KCSM models than TCSM, for the KCSM nature. Where TCSM in the worse case can retreat more safely than KCSM, which usually retreat between more (melee)squads, with the danger of retreat grenades, globals, melee hits...

2. KCSM scale worse than TCSM in T3. Where the TCSM can simply shoot and run if the situation turns dangerous, KCSM have to stay in melee to do their job. And well, not sure if is a good idea to keep melee combat against Avatar, GUO, Assault Terminators with/out Lighting Claws, Nobzs, Seer Council, Genestealers with Melee synapse...

3. KCSM have some rivalry in the own Chaos roster: Bloodletters, AC Raptors, Lighting Claws Chaos Terminators... Ok, some of these squads can't do the same damage or have the same HP than KCSM, but have other abilities/characteristics which makes them more attractive to he Chaos player.

4. KCSM in ELITE have more different enemy squads which can deal with them: almost all GK roster, Vanguard Upgrade for ASM, new melee heroes builds...

oh sorry for changing topic in your thread! i completely forgot. All those reasons are why i dont make KCSM. Their are better options, which are safer, KSCM need a buff! or a change of some kind.

[Tex]

Just a lower price and perhaps a slightly larger charge range.

Or you could go the other way and say due to the dangerous nature of the upgrade, KCSM are now granted lower upkeep and lower reinforcement cost.

[Batpimp]

Just a lower price and perhaps a slightly larger charge range.

Or you could go the other way and say due to the dangerous nature of the upgrade, KCSM are now granted lower upkeep and lower reinforcement cost.

thats all they probably really need. their needs to be some incentive to use them over BL, BC or dread. I mean your giving up MoT!! which is way better i think in almost every situation.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

fuck no, not a charge range increase. they can already chase forever. they're good melee units and better chasers than banshees.

a huge reason, i'd say the biggest, that tcsm are so good is because they do full or increased damage to every infantry type, along with a very high dps. there isn't any other damage type on infantry that does full damage to everything, especially at that dps.

[Torpid]

KCSM are fine. They definitely don't need a charge range increase, they're already extremely fast. I do think they could have their 20 power cost back, or maybe 25 mainly because KCSM really really need their AC to be effective and in elite he costs 25 power as opposed to 15.

[sk4zi]

Just a lower price and perhaps a slightly larger charge range.

Or you could go the other way and say due to the dangerous nature of the upgrade, KCSM are now granted lower upkeep and lower reinforcement cost.

lower reinforcement cost would be cool. actually kcsm bleed much just in fact that they need to mess with many different troops. they have no further skill (like warshout, waagh, or someting else for knockback) which makes them quite vulnerable to lets say ogryns altough i feel they should win vs them.

[Nurland]

Well I wouldn't call KCSM dps extremely high. Fully upgraded squad has a dps somewhere between T1 Stormboyz and T1 Banshees.

Though I agree with Arbitor that they probably do not need a charge range increase I think calling them better retreat chasers than Shees is a bit of an exaggeration.

[Torpid]

Well looking at their stats they aren't that fantastic damage wise considering how expensive they are:

KCSM dps - 148 power melee | 24 plasma + 5 melta - Speed 6 - health 1513.

Banshee DPS - 135 power melee + 51.43 heavy melee | 12.35 piercing - Speed 6 - health 1073.

Stormboy DPS - 150 power melee + 65 heavy melee | 1.95 piercing - Speed 5 - health 1185.

However they do have a very strong special attack, good ranged damage and HI armour with more health than most other melee squads. They're alright.