I can't stop talking about Tacs n' Sternguard...

[Magus Magi]

APOLOGY:
…I’m complaining about Tacs and Sternguard again…clearly I’m not keeping myself busy enough. Sorry for the wall of text, if you read through it all then you're a real trooper.


SUMMARY:
I would like to see higher dps coming from Sternguard and Tactical Marines.


ARGUMENT:

PROS:
Before I continue, I want to acknowledge what these squads do well:

Tactical Marines:
The +50% capping speed for tactical marines, in addition to their high base hp and “They shall know no fear”, allow them to grab a point, even while taking fire. I also understand that a 26 dps plasma gun, in addition to the +20% damage vs. heavy armor from kraken rounds, can make a level 4 Tactical Marine squad into a considerable anti-heavy infantry squad. Similarly, a missile launcher allows Tactical Marines to chip away at vehicle armor, and an early flamer can be used to bash power generators.

Sternguard:
As for Sternguard, everything I said about the capping strengths of Tactical Marines is also true of Sternguard, and special ammo types allow Sternguard to chip away at most infantry types (particularly those vulnerable to hellfire rounds).


CONS:
Despite the qualities extolled above, I don’t think that either of these units can sufficiently project force.

Sternguard and Tactical Marines:
Both Sternguard and Tactical Marines have comparatively high reinforcement costs and risk bleeding their owners later in a game. Additionally, both squads are slow and, as a result, easy to entangle in melee combat or outmaneuver.

Tactical Marines:
Tactical marine combat versatility comes at the cost of weapon upgrades, and specializes one squad member’s damage output. If that specialization needs to change, the cost of purchasing weapons mounts. Their low bolter damage, small squad size, and high reinforcement cost keeps Tactical Marines from serving the kind of dedicated fire support role embodied by ork shootas, chaos space marines, imperial guardsmen, elder guardians, or termagants. They are easily outshot, outmaneuvered, and left behind in the later stages of a game.

Sternguard:
Sternguard cost (with the price of their base Tactical Marine squad included) very nearly as much as a terminator squad. The number of Sternguard squads available to a player is limited to one, unlike most other non-commander/subcommander infantry or non-super units. Sternguard also reset the levels of their base Tactical Marine squad to one and require tier two, which increases the likelihood that they will bleed their owner with reinforcement costs. Finally, Sternguard require substantial micromanagement to use efficiently when compared with other versatile combat squads.

Also of note: Sternguard Vengeance rounds were given reduced ranged to compensate for their high damage against all infantry types. The damage on vengeance rounds has been adjusted, but the range has remained the same and is coupled with a higher reload time when compared to other special ammo types (requiring sternguard to close distance with vehicles and increasing the likelihood that the sternguard will be tied up in melee and bleed their owner with reinforcement costs).


CONCLUSION:
I recognize that both these squads have value, and I am not trying to suggest a radical reevaluation of their damage output. However, I would enjoy seeing the ELITE dev. team try a few minor buffs to Tactical Marine and Sternguard damage. Those buffs could come at the price of a late game upgrade for cost, be derived from another unit’s abilities, or just be a raw dps increase. I’m sure there are many ways to integrate buffs, like the one I’m advocating, into the game. I think that the same creativity that went into giving termagants a venom brood squad leader could be applied to Tactical Marines and Sternguard.

For your consideration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGPesbHQ0II

...whew...that's it...I'm finished...

[crazyman64335]

how many people are going to post those videos realizing that they have 0 balance replication value whatsoever? When you're playing you don't openly throw your ranged units into combat, you use positioning, especially with tacs. The way i see indrid doing that series is just for kicks and giggles really. And another point you made, if you're bleeding tac / sternguard models theres a problem. They have 4 members in a squad. If you're losing 2 every fight then you're playing SM wrong. IMO they're fine how they are, very tanky for a t1 ranged squad, good damage, scale well with upgrades in my experiences.

[Magus Magi]

I appreciate your response!

I'm not so much worried about losing two tacs in every engagement. I recognize that most players are able to judge a firefight and retreat before losing models in the early game (although that means giving ground, and Tacs are slow which makes retaking ground slow). My concern arises primarily from late game fights in which I feel that Tactical Marines and Sternguard become slow, low damage, and high cost (in resources and population). I also feel that positioning Tacs effectively is easier said than done, considering their speed and the wide variety of units suited to tying them up.

I'd like to elaborate a little on how I see a few of the other long range units that appear around the same time as Tacs, and how I perceive those units scaling into the late game:

(1) Shoota boyz suppress, provide good damage, and have a low reinforcement cost. They continue to provide a solid anti-infantry firebase and on-call suppression throughout the game.

(2) Chaos space marines scale extremely well and fill an important role as fire support even in a tier 3 chaos army. Their raw damage is impressive in both ranged and melee forms.

(3) Termagants have their cripple ability to control movement, have a low reinforcement cost, and volume of fire. In the later stages of the game they get an anti-vehicle upgrade in the form of their Venom Brood leader without sacrificing any of what made them useful in the early game.

(4)(5)Eldar and Guard have volume of fire and low reinforcement costs in addition to the fact that they are their army's designated repair unit. Eldar Guardians move quickly, put out reasonable damage, can build cover, and have a powerful plasma grenade ability which combos well with other abilities. Guard reinforce 3 at a time, dish good ranged damage by tier 3, and have a faster repair rate which gives them a powerful support role in the late game.

I just don't feel that Tacs scale as well as these other units. They become a single, slow, special/heavy weapon in the late game with high bleed potential against other tier 3 units. And I certainly don't feel that the benefits of the Sternguard upgrade account for all of the limitations on it (see my original post). In the early game, getting two tactical marines is rarely as good as getting two scouts, and at the end of the game I think that Tactical Marines and Sternguard tend to give way to Terminators and other tier 3 units.

I'd like to see what a little damage boost would look like is all. Anything that the design team tries could always be reversed if their internal testing found it to be out sync with their vision of how the game is meant to be.

[sk4zi]

allthough i am also SM player, i dont think that there´s a Problem here...

you sayed it by yourself: Tacs can have many different wheapons. none of the other squads you mentioned is able to have that ... the others are all anti infantery.
SM Tacs and Sternguard are able to do AV damage which is a huge benefit.

also its very easy to level up for them. actually with the posibility to give no exp at all to the enenmy. they are the only ones (exept Nid Warriors - dont understand, why they got that but also dont know how it really works... ) who can switch their upgrades.
also try to get e.g. 2 Plasma Tacs ... they will outshoot many other armys

i Understand that you want another T3 Upgrade for them but its not nessecary.
the only thing i could imagine is to double their special wheapon in T3 to have 2 Plasma, Rockets etc. in one squad

there is only one thing which i didnt like with them all the time i play this game ...
they are suppressed very fast. i feel like much faster than other Range squads.

[Panda]

Mr Magi I can't help thinking you are misunderstanding the role of tacs. This is because, in my opinion, there are some serious flaws in your logic:

a) using an arena of judgement video to justify your case
b) arena of judgement is for fun, shits and giggles - in the comments Indrid says "1v1 matchups should not strictly be considered an indication of balance"
c) if you are losing tac/sternguards with any regularity as SM you are playing the race wrong - it is unlikely, but not impossible, to win some matchups without bleeding a tac model
d) Termagants were given a squad leader because they scaled terribadly to Tier 3
e) it is widely acknowledged that one of the greatest advantages of SM is how their units scale into the lategame - buffing them further is just crazy
f) I don't think you should compare any of those units to tacs since they are different races and these units perform different roles for them
g) you complain that Sternguard require a lot of micromanagement compared with other versatile squads...if micro in any form is part of the issue here then the problem does not lie with the game

This is just my opinion of course. I basically agree with crazyman

[Dark Riku]

d) Termagants were given a squad leader because they scaled terribadly to Tier 3
e) it is widely acknowledged that one of the greatest advantages of SM is how their units scale into the lategame - buffing them further is just crazy

d) I didn't see any problems with termagaunts scaling in T3.
They can snare ANY infantry squad which is amazing.
The new squad leader is just an extra option there for you.
e) SM T3 used to be something to fear. Now in Elite not at all anymore.
Every unit still has its role later on in the game.

[ThongSong]

It would be funny if the sternguard squad could get a terminator sarge with a powersword. that would be awesome.

more on point, I feel sternguards are pretty powerful against light infantry, but then again they should be considering they cost as much of a terminator squad. against heavy infantry, mmm I'd rather get a plasma gun thanks.

I think tacs are fine. flamer vs light infantry, plasma vs heavy, missile vs vehicles. seems pretty decent. nothing spectacular but always a solid base you can rely on. The only thing is that they tend to get melted pretty quickly in late game 3v3s (but 3v3s being 3v3s, lolbalanceright?)

(can we please get the sternguard upgrade hotkey changed to something other than T? I've had my lvl 4 tac squads turn into lvl 1 sternguards far too many times)

[Nuclear Arbitor]

(can we please get the sternguard upgrade hotkey changed to something other than T? I've had my lvl 4 tac squads turn into lvl 1 sternguards far too many times)

if it conflicts with something than make a post in the bug thread and give a suggestion. mention whether it is with or without grid keys.

if you just don't like the placement than that's a separate, non bug issues and should not be in the bug thread but might be worth talking about. again, make a suggestion.

[ThongSong]

(can we please get the sternguard upgrade hotkey changed to something other than T? I've had my lvl 4 tac squads turn into lvl 1 sternguards far too many times)

if it conflicts with something than make a post in the bug thread and give a suggestion. mention whether it is with or without grid keys.

if you just don't like the placement than that's a separate, non bug issues and should not be in the bug thread but might be worth talking about. again, make a suggestion.

T also happens to be the hotkey for They Shall Know No Fear, is has nothing to do with me not liking it's placement

[Torpid]

Tacs if anything are currently OP not UP. The things are bloody amazing. They just bleed everything so fast without ever losing models. That flamer is overperforming too, it needs a 30 second build time.

Tacs are the ultimate support unit. They don't bleed you because of their ranged role, health and armour type, yet they can aid in the destruction of anything. They beat ranged units in melee, they cap faster, they can gen bash extremely effectively, the flamer is horrendously powerful vs LI, the missle launcher when combined with a razorback and melta bombs is a very efficient method of AV that can be achieved rather quickly and the plasma gun does some serious dps too.

Sternguard are far more niche, they do cost a lot for sure, but that's because they're fantastic against everything. Buying a anti-infantry, anti-HI, anti-vehicle and anti-building squad/upgrade separately would cost loads. Sterns are just a great squad who inflict disproportionate bleed against their foes, and with the upgrade they can no longer lose their sergeant which prevents a lot of power bleed.

Both of these guys are fine, however you have to treat them as a support unit outside of the very early game, unlike t2 CSM variants who are far more basic offensive threats.

[sk4zi]

d) Termagants were given a squad leader because they scaled terribadly to Tier 3

e) SM T3 used to be something to fear. Now in Elite not at all anymore.
Every unit still has its role later on in the game.

that is really a different point, but in my opinion (Master sk4zi´s) Termas are now OP. they do way too much av damage now.

Tacs, loosing their levels after upgrading to sternguard however is really something discussable ...
i very often dont get them beaucse my taces are level 2 allready.
also ThongSong is right. Plasma tacs are way better than sternguard vs HI

same with vanguard.
they loose the melta and the levels... usually asm are not lvl 1 anymore in T3 ...
so atm i get vanguard usually by purchasing new asm in T3 and upgrade them because i dont want my ASM loose their level and skills.

[taco86]

Agreed, strenguard and vanguards are questionable upgrades. Reverting them to lvl 1 is simply just a slap in the face tbh.

[Orkfaeller]

Allways kinda asumed that the level reset is primarly a technical restriction.

Having them replaced with another unit with the same amount of XP I could imagine would be hard to mod.

[Ace of Swords]

Sterns are expensive but good enough, vanguards on the other hand see a use only when I lose ASM in t3 or purchase them in T3, and then I go straight for the vanguard upgrade.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

It's more a balance issue more than technical because AFAIK it's possible to design and implement the Sternguard/Vanguard upgrade like the CSM Mark of Tzeentch/Mark of Khorne.

I think guys you are underestimating the flexiblity that Sternguard upgrade gives, and the possibilities that provides change the ammo type depending of the situation.

The only thing IMHO which makes the Tactical + specialized weapons (Rocket Launcher, Plasma rifle) superior to Sternguard are the Rocket launcher/Plasma rifle "one shot" shoot design, which offers more difficult to the enemy to control the incomming damage, and have more possibilities to drop models/kill vehicles for the high spike damage.

Vanguard upgrade IMHO except you bought/need the melta/stun grenade is almost a no brainer upgrade.

[taco86]

Allways kinda asumed that the level reset is primarly a technical restriction.

Having them replaced with another unit with the same amount of XP I could imagine would be hard to mod.

I think the major issue is that tacs and sterms gain a different % increase in hp as they level. The % hp increase per level i believe is bound to that particular group and is most probably not variable based on upgrades.

If instead the stern upgrade simply changed models, changed abilities, and added a small hp increase to simulate the 15% hp per level sterms get while retaining the 10% tacs get the modders may be able to circumvent this potential technical limitation.

As an example, stern's could start with 400 hp each instead of 350 but increase hp per level at 10%. This would mean that their hp total at lvl 4 would be the same as it is now, 532 hp per model. The veteran would need to start just over 455 base hp to reach 608 hp per model at lvl 4.


BTW, this suggestion is ONLY relevant IF the current lvl reset is a symptom of a technical limitation instead of being 100% intended as a design choice (which it very well may be).

[Dark Riku]

Vanguard upgrade IMHO except you bought/need the melta/stun grenade is almost a no brainer upgrade.

No it really isn't. By T3 they are at least level 3.
It's a pretty useles upgrade in T3 unless you just bought a new squad.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

T also happens to be the hotkey for They Shall Know No Fear, is has nothing to do with me not liking it's placement

if it conflicts with something than make a post in the bug thread and give a suggestion. mention whether it is with or without grid keys.

[Tex]

Well, there you have it, I completely agree with Torpid on his previous statement.

[Panda]

Tacs if anything are currently OP not UP. The things are bloody amazing. They just bleed everything so fast without ever losing models. That flamer is overperforming too, it needs a 30 second build time.

Tacs are the ultimate support unit. They don't bleed you because of their ranged role, health and armour type, yet they can aid in the destruction of anything. They beat ranged units in melee, they cap faster, they can gen bash extremely effectively, the flamer is horrendously powerful vs LI, the missle launcher when combined with a razorback and melta bombs is a very efficient method of AV that can be achieved rather quickly and the plasma gun does some serious dps too.

Sternguard are far more niche, they do cost a lot for sure, but that's because they're fantastic against everything. Buying a anti-infantry, anti-HI, anti-vehicle and anti-building squad/upgrade separately would cost loads. Sterns are just a great squad who inflict disproportionate bleed against their foes, and with the upgrade they can no longer lose their sergeant which prevents a lot of power bleed.

Both of these guys are fine, however you have to treat them as a support unit outside of the very early game, unlike t2 CSM variants who are far more basic offensive threats.

For a change, I agree lol

[Forestradio]

Both Tacs and Sternguards are jack of all trades while at the same time being masters of none.

They're fine as is. Properly microed/upgraded, they can soft counter almost every unit in the game.

[Asmon]

Not only soft counter. Stenguard Veteran are the best unit for anti-infantry and anti-hero ranged damage.

[Black Relic]

Although it has been said id like to express my own opinion.

I used to have a concern about Steurnguard (prob spelled that wrong). I have not looked into them since their change so i still have no stance on them.

But Tacs are not the ultimate support unit. However, the reason why the unit is so amazing was already mentioned. Their versatility. They can put pressure on almost any armor type at the drop of a hat provided the resource are there.

If i could ask for anything to be changed for tacs would be their repurchase of some of their wargear, and to it being halved since late game (for me anyway) resources seem scarce. If this makes no sense; 1st purchase of plasma gun would be full price, the repurchase of the plasma gun would be half its original.

But all in all tacs really dont need to be changed. Ya they get their ass hammered hard by mark of T csm but which infantry doesn't?

[Magus Magi]

I really appreciate all of you taking the time to respond to my concerns. There are three main issues I have with the current state of Sternguard and Tactical marines which I think could be handled quickly and easily and which would help both units immensely:

First, subsequent repurchase of tactical marine special/heavy weapons should be free or for reduced cost. Forcing a player to pay for weapons every time you repurchase one results in most players purchasing a max of two weapon upgrades for their Tacs. This change would make for more interesting and dynamic Tactical marine play and help players feel comfortable purchasing all of the various weapon options.

Second, Sternguard Vengeance rounds were given reduced ranged to compensate for their high damage against all infantry types. The damage on vengeance rounds has been adjusted, but the range has remained the same and is coupled with a higher reload time when compared to other special ammo types. Now that the Vengeance rounds have been rebalanced against infantry armor, their reload time and range should be reverted to normal.

Third, the loss of Tactical Marine levels when upgrading to a Sternguard squad seems VERY strange to me. The high cost of Sternguard, coupled with the ability to only make one squad of them, seems like a high price to pay IN ADDITION to the loss of levels. The ability of a player to keep the levels they've earned through good play with the base tactical marine squad would go a long way towards improving my opinion of Sternguard.

If the three issues I have just listed were addressed in some way, it would greatly improve my view of Tactical Marines and Sternguard. Thank you all for the attention you've given this thread, I hope some of the ideas I've presented here are interesting to the design team.

[saltychipmunk]

I hate the stern guard with a passion.

I find needing to switch between so many ammo types to be needlessly clunky.
I mean how hard could it have been to just have two ammo types one that fires av rounds and one the fires anti everything else. Half the time i am worried that I selected the wrong bolt type on them. Needlessly tedious , this isn't wow , i don't need or want to have to memorize a billion hot keys on just the god damn firing mode of one squad.

Tacs are fine tho , one major benefit to the tac weapon upgrading being on only one tac is that you dont need to reinforce the full squad. Plenty of games I would just have a 10 pop tac squad with a leader and a missile tac going around capping stuff and destroying gens. 10 pop in up keep adds up fast and you easily save 300 req in the long run.


You cant really get away with that with csm and strikes do their damage too gradually to risk having only half the squad present.

[Nurland]

Well tbh having 2 ammo types would've probably been easier to make. Now being unable to select the correct ammo type is just poor micro. The game is already a relatively low APM so I really don't see the different ammo types overly taxing.

[Arbit]

The ammo switching on sternguard seems odious but goes away with a little practice. It's annoying to get used to at first because IMO the ammo icons do not visually convey what they do very well. Just remember [w] for HI, [r] for commanders and regular infantry, [t] for vehicles. [e] is antigarrison but you really don't use that. After a while it becomes second nature - you automatically switch based on what you're targeting.

Vengeance rounds shouldn't get full bolter range. Vengeance rounds are currently pretty weak AV but that's fine given how good the hellfire and kraken rounds are. Vengeance is just there to provide light pressure on vehicles. The only thing I'd change about sternguard is let them transfer levels or start them off with a little more HP than a lvl1 tac squad, and reduce the reload time on vengeance rounds and lower their damage so the DPS is the same... that reload time is damn long and it's impossible to account for.

[Ace of Swords]

There is barely any need to switch from hellfire rounds anyway, even vs HI the kraken bolts aren't that good, actually, I still feel the hellfire performs better vs them, especially when there is cover, and the situations where you use the dragonfire rounds are quite rare.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

There is barely any need to switch from hellfire rounds anyway, even vs HI the kraken bolts aren't that good, actually, I still feel the hellfire performs better vs them, especially when there is cover, and the situations where you use the dragonfire rounds are quite rare.

AFAIK Hellfire Rounds DOT don't affect HI or SHI squads.

[Ace of Swords]

There is barely any need to switch from hellfire rounds anyway, even vs HI the kraken bolts aren't that good, actually, I still feel the hellfire performs better vs them, especially when there is cover, and the situations where you use the dragonfire rounds are quite rare.

AFAIK Hellfire Rounds DOT don't affect HI or SHI squads.

How is that possible? I tought it worked like the PC.