Grey Knight Rhino in t1

[Torpid]

So, this isn't so much a balance request as much as it is simply a tweak to fix something fundamentally flawed with the rhino in t1. At the moment it really isn't useful to buy in t1 for anything other than transportation, i.e. you can only bash/cap with it, not kite. This is because everything your infantry disembark the transport you must reselect them by whizzing over them using your hold-mouse function, but that means you select the rhino and so when you click on the enemy units the rhino (due to it having no weapon) drives forward into the foes. Now not only does this put the rhino in great danger (especially against melee units), but due to pathing it also means all your units who got out to shoot now can't shoot as they spasm due to the rhino haven't greater pathing priorities.

Now my question is this: Is this an intentional behaviour mechanism in order to prevent the rhino from being used to kite melee units, or is it not? If the answer is yes, then is this balanced, or do GK need this. If the answer is no, then a simple fix would be to add a 0.000000000001dps gun to rhino in t1 so that it doesn't just charge forward.

P.S I am aware of the fact that you can evade this issue using hotkeys, however when you have only a few squads in the rhino and some elsewhere it's incredibly inefficient to have to use hotkeys to select each of the units every time you want to kite and disembark.

[Helios]

P.S I am aware of the fact that you can evade this issue using hotkeys,

Seems to me like you just solved your own problem there.

however when you have only a few squads in the rhino and some elsewhere it's incredibly inefficient to have to use hotkeys to select each of the units every time you want to kite and disembark.

What exactly is inefficient about it? Let's say your rhino is squad two and squads 4 and 5 are inside of it.

2, Q, 4, Shift+ 5, whatever orders you want to give next.

[Asmon]

You can also disembark while moving, and coming back to pick your units up if you need to back off.

I'm against adding a gun that would just deny bad micro punishment :p

[Nuclear Arbitor]

if the units are still inside it'll order the vehicle though. really, that's my biggest issue with microing garrisoned units; they don't always unload quickly and waiting for them can be a problem.

[Torpid]

however when you have only a few squads in the rhino and some elsewhere it's incredibly inefficient to have to use hotkeys to select each of the units every time you want to kite and disembark.

What exactly is inefficient about it? Let's say your rhino is squad two and squads 4 and 5 are inside of it.

2, Q, 4, Shift+ 5, whatever orders you want to give next.

Because you have to spend time checking which squads are which hotkey as in the middle of melee kiting things become fuddley. This isn't the case for all other transports because you can simply highlight over everything that came out of the RB with the mouse and then there is also the point that arbitor made.

[crazyman64335]

Here's an idea (feel free to get extremely angry at it because you disagree then post an extremely long rant) but how about if units could fire from inside the Rhino? Getting an upgrade would obviously nullify this ability. Because as it stands right now, the rhino is a waste of money in t1. At least this would make it a viable option since it doesn't have vehicle armor in T1

[Asmon]

No, it would be too powerful against melee.

I see the rhino as a T2 choice that you can make in T1. It will either provide the support of a razorbak or the AV potency of a moving lasdev. Getting it in T1 grants you a major timing advantage and can make your opponent think twice before getting a vehicle.

In T1, the BC is already there to provide mobility to your main army. The rhino should imo be coupled with a purgation squad and used to genbash repeatedly.

[Torpid]

Considering GK get no suppression based CC I really don't see why giving the rhino the ability to easily perform an anti-melee kiting role is so bad, even if it means the rhino loses it's t1 smoke shells.

[crazyman64335]

Honestly i don't see any problem with it, limit it to 1 squad remove the smoke shell and it's probably going to behave like a sentinal (most people will put storm troopers in it, due to the purgs limited range) except it'd be alittle more expensive. I'm just saying, i think it'd be a good idea to test out, especially since we're in beta stages right now and it can easily be changed.

[Codex]

It would behave like a sentinel? But with much higher dps? The idea of that is already quite offputting if you put it like that.

[Broodwich]

+1 to op. Like manticore gun or something with longer range so it doesnt charge out in front of your inf. It disrupts your guys better than the enemy can tbh

[Lulgrim]

I doubt having units fire from inside transports is even technically possible so I wouldn't go very far in that direction.

A dummy weapon doesn't need to be visible or do any damage at all.

[Torpid]

Personally a range 40 dummy gun would be great IMO. Would be even better though if it had hardly any animation like the wartrukk's bullets.

I don't really think garrsoned units should be able to shoot out anyway, that makes it too strong a melee counter and gives little time for the foe to find a method of retaliation.

[taco86]

How about add a pintle mounted storm bolter?

[Orkfaeller]

How about add a pintle mounted storm bolter?

The Phobos used to have one of those I think, but it caused bugs/problems I believe.

Dont know how if this was just a problem with the tank itself or with the gun mechanics.

[taco86]

How about add a pintle mounted storm bolter?

The Phobos used to have one of those I think, but it caused bugs/problems I believe.

Dont know how if this was just a problem with the tank itself or with the gun mechanics.

Word, lets "assume" for a second that everything would work perfectly and there would be no bugs involved with the storm bolter.

Would you think it's a reasonable idea "if" it's functionality was more or less bug free?

[Toilailee]

I'm okay with storm bolter for vanilla rhino. No more than 15-20dps tho.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i'd say less than that; something like the 7 the wartrukk did. you might be able to get away with more though; i'm not very familiar with GK balance.

[Forestradio]

Does the GK rhino still give green cover to friendly stuff around it?

That should work well with inq storms, although I haven't gotten a rhino in T1 yet as GK

[Torpid]

I'm okay with storm bolter for vanilla rhino. No more than 15-20dps tho.

It honestly doesn't need to do any damage in t1. It's main use is for kiting, capping and gen bahsing. It's not exactly a mainline battle unit, and it serves no purpose within ranged fights, or at least I think it was designed to not do hence why it should probably lose it's smoke shells which it has in t1.

[ThongSong]

I have never kept this thing alive into tier 2 before. it usually presents it big fat ass to melee squads and gets chopped to bits.

but that's just me having terrible micro

[Nuclear Arbitor]

fuck, looked at join date on accident instead of post date; nm

[ThongSong]

^

someone pee in your coffee today? were you appointed the class-monitor or something?

please, last post was 3 months ago. unless you have concerns that were not addressed already in a thread please try not to necro.

This post was created by:

QUOTE
Postby That Torpid Gamer » Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:43 pm
UNQUOTE

3 months? ^.- unless I missed something 25th September - 23rd September = 3 Days

[taco86]

I'm okay with storm bolter for vanilla rhino. No more than 15-20dps tho.

10-15 dps with range 40 would probably be all that's needed. Having it do more dps than a single tac or strike marine is not needed.

It's my understanding that the dps values on ranged weapons is including reload times for said weapons (please correct if wrong). This would mean that a 10 dps weapon with a 5 second reload time every 5 seconds would be applying 20 dps during the 5 seconds that it is actually shooting and 0 dps while it's reloading. This gives the weapon a tactical advantage (burst vs dot) compared to a ranged weapon that does 10 dps with no reloads. If this is indeed how the system works, then I would highly suggest that the potential storm bolter work more similarly to the second example to keep it's short term impact to a minimum. 7 seconds of shooting, 1.5 seconds reloading and an average of 12 dps would IMO be quite reasonable.

[Orkfaeller]

Would the Rhino loose its Stormbolter when Upgraded to a Razorback?

Also, Id be interessted if people think it would be justified to give the Rhino a reinforcement aura when its upgraded with its vehicle armour but loose it again if it upgrades to a lascannon?

[taco86]

I don't think giving grey knights a mobile reinforce point in tier 1 would be a good idea... That being said, an upgrade choice in tier 2 (either las cannon or reinforce upgrade at a higher cost) could be interesting.

[Ace of Swords]

It would be fine if it came along with the heavy bolter upgrade, making it cost 75/30.

[Codex]

please, last post was 3 months ago. unless you have concerns that were not addressed already in a thread please try not to necro.

Yeah... did you just post this in the wrong thread or something?...

[taco86]

It would be fine if it came along with the heavy bolter upgrade, making it cost 75/30.

This gives me an idea. Grey knights obviously lack suppression, which has been of large concern in terms of this armies overall balance.

Maybe the rhino could have 3 possible upgrades? Twin linked las, as is present, twin linked heavy bolter that does less dmg(or maybe accuracy?) than space marines razorback but has a chance to suppress, and then the third upgrade which would allow reinforcement of grey knight marines and storm troopers (obviously not termies).

A bit more variation would go a long ways for this army.

edit: After thinking about this for a minute... How about instead of a twin linked heavy bolter, it can upgrade to a twin linked psy cannon which would have the same effect as what is suggested, just have a different model/firing graphic.

As an example check out this FW conversion.
http://www.forgeworld-discount.com/products/items/0/Newproducts/517/RhinoPsycannonupgrade.html

[Ace of Swords]

Suppression on a very fast platform that cannot be tied up is a very bad idea, i'd rather see a dedicated psycannon team (With a T2 upgrade to make it AV)that acts like all the setup teams in T1 and the rhino moved in T2. while leaving the purgation as a form of close-anti blobbing by increasing the radius of their flamers.