I can't stop talking about Tacs n' Sternguard...

[Forestradio]

Hellfire only works vs normal infantry and commanders.

They bleed guardsmen and catachans like crazy, and are excellent for shooting fleeing commie lords in the back. *BLAM*

vs HI and SHI, they don't do any DoT, so you will want to use kraken or vengeance.

I really like sternguard vs IG. If they get ogryns, break out the pdevs and/or the thunder hammer FC.

Sternguard also soft counter everything else. Vehicles, cowards hiding behind cover, THE COWARDS THE FEWLS!!! *ahem* etc

[FiSH]

i think the point about DoT is right, it can be seen in Indrid's video who's the shootiest:

http://youtu.be/xGPesbHQ0II?t=6m27s

[Asmon]

Ace shame on you!

Ofc the DoT is only applied to infantry and commander armored foes.

[Ace of Swords]

Dunno, i'll have to test it out and see it with my own eyes, im quite certain it works vs everyone.

[Asmon]

It really does not, go try and see for yourself.

[Bahamut]

how does that DoT work exactly? does it apply per bolt connected to the whole squad? or only to the hit target? does it have a maximum amount of stacks if it even stacks with itself?

[Asmon]

Every burst that connects applies the DoT on the model that is hit. The DoT does 1.5 piercing per second for 4 seconds and is not affected by retreat ranged damage reduction.

There is no limit for the number of DoT that can stack simultaneously.

[Bahamut]

So, if i understand the numbers on the wiki correctly and my math is also correct a sternguard model shoots on average a burst every 4.28 seconds which makes sense with DoT duration.

Also, every burst does 25 damage and the full lenght of the DoT is 6 damage. That means that if we ignore wasted damage on models the DoT represents an increase of 24% on dps against non retreating squad and nice +120% (220% total) against retreating squads.

If each sternguard model dps is 14.58 that means that a full squad will do 72.31 dps to non retreating infantry squads and heroes and 25.66 dps to retreating squads and heroes

Not really that impressive dps for a 625/55 minimum price t2 squad that you can only have 1 of them

[Asmon]

Nope, you're wrong. I'll explain later.

Edit: Sternguard Veterans fire bursts that last 2s, every 3s, which means a 1s cooldown between each burst.

Every 7 bursts, they must reload (like most burst type weapons) which takes 3s. In then end they have shot 7 bursts in 24s.

The DPS are indeed 14.58 per model but the damage modifiers are 1 for infantry and 0.9 for commander armored foes.

Now on to the bursts themselves: one burst can apply the DoT more than once. Hence the actual DPS vs such targets are much higher.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the suspense...

[Forestradio]

Bahumat, you are paying all that power and req for much more than just hellfire rounds.

You get ATSKNF, a fantastic ability for tanking, capping, trolling, etc

You get kraken and vengeance rounds, which do a number on heavy infantry and soft counter vehicles.

The purpose of sternguard is to SOFT COUNTER pretty much every single unit ever. They are not a shooty unit of doom like Tcsm.

[Magus Magi]

I want to know why Sternguard aren't a "shooty unit of doom?" Why do they have to be another "soft" counter? Forgetting all the lore reasons for why they should shred their opponents, you have to pay a considerable amount for Sternguard, you can only get one of them, they take up 1/5 of your army by themselves, and you have to give up a more specialized squad (potentially) and the xp that squad has accumulated in order to get them. There are sacrifices and limitations built into purchasing a Sternguard squad that you don't see on other units.

Is it really too much to ask for the Sternguard to possess the power of a designated combat unit? Is asking SM opponents to prioritize tying up a lone Sternguard squad really asking that much?

All of this said, I understand that the mod devs are in a better place to understand game balance than I am. As I posted previously, my core concerns come down to a scant three things:

I would like Vengeance rounds reverted to their old range and reload speed now that Kraken rounds and Vengeance rounds have been rebalanced against infantry. I would like for Sternguard to keep the levels accumulated by their base Tactical squad (or to not have levels at all). And I would also like for Tactical Marines to pay less (or nothing) to re-equip their special weapons.

[Magus Magi]

Also, I want to thank everybody commenting here again for taking the time to address my concerns.

The Elite community does a great job of having well reasoned debates about unit efficacy and I'm glad to be a part of the discussion.

[Dark Riku]

You get ATSKNF, a fantastic ability for tanking, capping, trolling, etc

You already have ATSKNF before the upgrade.

[Bahamut]

It does feel like a sidegrade rather than an upgrade to tacticals. It's pretty much the lazy choice since they are immune to tac sarge manliness power bleeding you but they lose the melee from tac sarge and they're totally inferior to tactical with the appropriate weapon for the job (anti garrison ammo vs flamer, vengeance vs rocket launcher, plasma vs kraken).

I'd guess the actual only reason to get them is hellfire ammo, but i read alot of hate towards it...

[Nurland]

Well what would be the point of having Plasma Gun if Kraken Rounds would be better or why would one get a Missile Launcher if Vengeance Rounds would do better AV?

Giving SM super shooty kill kill kill units might get bit ouf of control with all that inspiration. The reason to get SG is that is pretty much the ultimate jack of all trades unit in the game. If you for example don't quite need the firepower ML offers against vehicles you can go for SG to be able to switch ammo types for every situation with no additional cost.

[Magus Magi]

I'm about to nitpick your post a tiny bit Nurland, please understand that I do so with only the purest intentions.

It seems to me that you're post inherently assumes that only one squad of Tactical Marines will get purchased during the course of a game. You're question was framed as, "why get Tactical Marines if Sternguard are better?" The answer is: because you can only get one unit of Sternguard.

If Sternguard were made significantly more powerful, I'd still get tactical marines because I can't get more than one Sternguard squad. Maybe, if Sternguard really were better, we'd see less of the double scout opening and more of the double tactical. I think it's possible that better Sternguard and better Tactical marines would open up more interesting builds for Space Marines (especially late game) beyond two scout openers and tier 3 terminator spam / predator tanks.

Many of the Space Marine threads on here seem to target the problem I'm alluding to. The issues with the Librarian, the Vanguard Veterans, and the Whirlwind all stem from something broader: nobody wants there to be only one way to play Space Marines. Varied play = interesting play. I believe that making Sternguard better will result in more interesting Space Marine strategies. If it turned out to be a mistake, the devs could always revert the buffs.

[Nurland]

Major buff to SG would essentially also make 1 Tactical builds a lot better since they would probably become an auto buy if they would outperform Tacs with weapon upgrades. I don't even think it would encourage people to buy more Tacs. It would just encourage them to get SG in all scenarios.

And as I said. I feel like that with a damage buff they could become slightly out of control with SM inspiration, abilities and globals.

Just out of curiosity: How large dps buffs would you suggest to the ammo types?

[Dark Riku]

Not sure if or what numbers he might want to increase. Can't find an direct indication he wants that. But his main concerns where the following:

I would like Vengeance rounds reverted to their old range and reload speed now that Kraken rounds and Vengeance rounds have been rebalanced against infantry. I would like for Sternguard to keep the levels accumulated by their base Tactical squad (or to not have levels at all). And I would also like for Tactical Marines to pay less (or nothing) to re-equip their special weapons.

And I agree on these.

[Bahamut]

I also like both magus suggestions. It always felt weird that you had to pay again to repurchase wargear on tacticals

@Nurland conceptually they're veterans, you can only have 1 veteran squad, they're supposed to be better. So the answer to your question would be simply "because i can't upgrade my second tac squad into sternguard"

I'm looking at their numbers and really they dont seem bad at all. If i look at the sternguards in a vacuum i wouldn't find any major issue other than vengeance ammo range and reload speed. To me is more a matter of the whole picture, SM got sternguard when IG got karskins, orks got flash gits, and eldar got dark reapers. Are sternguards able to fight those units?

[Magus Magi]

I'm not sure how much of a damage buff I'd like Sternguard to receive. I'm not entirely familiar with all the numbers behind the gameplay in ELITE, and I'd want to be more knowledgeable about them before assigning a numerical value. For my part, the only suggestions that I feel really passionate about have been very graciously quoted by Dark Riku in a post preceding this one.

The second of those requests, that Sternguard keep the levels that they've accumulated as Tactical Marines, might in and of itself serve as a sort of damage buff for players skilled enough to level the base Tactical Marine squad before converting them to Sternguard.

[Magus Magi]

WHAT FOLLOWS IS PURELY THEORETICAL, IF YOU DETECT HERESY CONTACT YOUR LOCAL COMMISAR:

On a purely theoretical note, if I were given the chance to change Sternguard, I'd get rid of the damage that Vengeance rounds do to vehicles. Then I'd run with the basic framework that the dev team has already established: Vengeance Rounds vs. Super Heavy Inf, Kraken vs. Heavy Inf., Hellfire vs. Inf. (Dragonfire vs. Infantry in buildings or against buildings (see below)).

I'd make the Sternguard a dedicated combat squad, and have them do competitive damage to each of those three infantry types (slightly more against heavy and super heavy than a Tactical Squad w/plasma gun and Kraken Rounds active) when using the appropriate ammo. I might also get rid of their +50% capping speed and lower the ability of Sternguard to gen-bash with any of their ammo types (or allow Dragonfire rounds to damage buildings, with slightly less efficiency than a flamer, in order to give that round type an additional use)

Now the incentive to keep your Tacs. (or get a second squad) is derived from their ability to get a missile launcher and contribute vs. vehicles. If you're dealing with infantry you can still purchase a plasma gun or flamer and do moderately less damage than Sternguard, but always with the knowledge that you can switch to a missile launcher when that enemy vehicle hits the field. If the capping speed was removed from Sternguard (I think it would need to be), that would also distinguish the role of Tacs from that of the single Sternguard unit. Finally, if the ability of Sternguard to gen-bash was similarly limited, then the Tactical Marine flamer provides an additional role for Tacs to fill that Sternguard can't (although I think making Dragonfire rounds good for gen-bashing would result in their being used more frequently).

As to the issue of Sternguard being buffed by Space Marine abilities: the damage output from a Sternguard squad will always be limited by the fact that you can only get one. Even if their damage was high, an opposing player will only ever have to tie up a single Sternguard squad in a 1v1 game, because you can only build one. Considering that you can get multiple Terminator squads, multiple Nob squads, multiple Rubric Marine squads, multiple Carnifexes, etc. I don't think that having one anti-infantry oriented Sternguard squad to tie up is too game breaking.

I'm so sorry for launching into another wall of text...

[Nurland]

@Nurland conceptually they're veterans, you can only have 1 veteran squad, they're supposed to be better. So the answer to your question would be simply "because i can't upgrade my second tac squad into sternguard", also, why normal CSM when you have TCSM?

You might not always want to go for MoT because sometimes you do not need the firepower and want the resources for something else. Or you might want to go for MoK.

I really don't see the "you can have only of these" as a reason to buff something.
I don't think the upgrade was meant to be an auto buy but more of an option to for more flexibility instead of more specialized upgrade. That though, is only my interpretation of the upgrade's design.

To me is more a matter of the whole picture, SM got sternguard when IG got karskins, orks got flash gits, and eldar got dark reapers. Are sternguards able to fight those units?

Why should a T1 squad with a T2 upgrade outgun T3 ranged specialist squads? And if they can use ATSKNF, they probably will outgun any of these squads or at the very least put up a good fight.

Dark Reapers for example are a dedicated ranged hard counter to HI/SHI but are really not that great against regular infantry. They do OK dps but nothing special. SG on the other hand do better damage against infantry and vehicles while their HI/SHI dps is still pretty good.

I do agree with that that Tacs should be able to repurchase their weapons with a lets say 50% discount.

Regarding SG AV capabilities. If their dps is still 18-19 against vehicles I wouldn't buff the dps and range. Maybe one or another.

[Bahamut]

You might not always want to go for MoT because sometimes you do not need the firepower and want the resources for something else. Or you might want to go for MoK.

I didnt wanna get dragged into resource managing since, well, the same can be said of everything. If i wanna deal with a vehicle and i dont need a sarge on my tacs so that's only 40 power vs 55 of sternguards, same with the plasma, tacs with no sarge and plasma will do about the same dps against HI and it is still way cheaper (30 pow vs 55)

Regarding SG AV capabilities. If their dps is still 18-19 against vehicles I wouldn't buff the dps and range. Maybe one or another.

Yeah. just range. Reload speed could be lowered but multipliers adjusted to match the current dps

[Magus Magi]

I think that limiting Sternguard to only one squad means that you can (and should) make them more impactful because you don't need to worry about unit spamming.

The SM's opponent will NEVER need to worry about more than one Sternguard squad. Tie that one squad up, and whatever unique qualities it has are eliminated. One measure of what makes a unit good is the ability to get multiple of that unit and push it's strengths to an extreme. TCSM are a perfect example of this principle at work, as is terminator spam, or multiple of any unit with a pronounced impact on combat (carnifexes are another example, or two aspiring champion heretic squads worshipping Tzeentch next to each other to gain total concealment).

As for Vengeance rounds, if I were given the choice of what to adjust, I'd choose the range. The range nerf (and the reload nerf I believe) was instituted to compensate for the high damage against infantry. Now that the damage has been adjusted, having to get closer to a mark of Khorne dreadnought in order to use Vengeance rounds feels burdensome. I would also like the reload rate changed as I think it would help improve Sternguard damage (which I've already established is something that I'm interested in).

As I've said before: Vengeance range and reload, Tac special/heavy weapon pricing on repurchase, and loss of Tac levels with Sternguard upgrade. The key three.

[Arbit]

I didnt wanna get dragged into resource managing since, well, the same can be said of everything. If i wanna deal with a vehicle and i dont need a sarge on my tacs so that's only 40 power vs 55 of sternguards, same with the plasma, tacs with no sarge and plasma will do about the same dps against HI and it is still way cheaper (30 pow vs 55)

I think these sorts of comparisons miss the point of sternguard - the choice to get sternguard is fundamentally a economic/resource management decision. We already know that in a straight across comparison, the sternguard lose out compared to the tac special weapon. Their advantage is free, near instantaneous weapon switches.

How much damage, for example, are your plasma tacs going to do to a vehicle? Effectively zilch, unless you invest another 40 power into the missile launcher. Now you're talking 70 or so power, which is more than the sarge + sternguard cost (ignoring req here for simplicity's sake). Same with a missile launcher: it's better than vengeance, but once they start shooting at infantry they are much, much worse than hellfire rounds, again unless you're willing to drop more power into a flamer or plasma gun. If you leave them with one weapon for the rest of the game, you will have to spend resources elsewhere to pick up the slack i.e. if you leave them as missile tacs, you will need additional squads or wargear to handle infantry.

You can also squeeze some more resource advantage out of these guys if you wait until your tac squad is down a man or two. Your sternguard will be 4/4 with full health, effectively making the req cost of the upgrade zero or even net negative

Also consider if you want the sarge, you're almost assuredly going to have to replace him at some point. ATSKNF is also easier/cheaper to charge up with sternguard, since your sarge costs the same as a regular tac to reinforce. True, he's inferior in melee to the vanilla tac sarge, but I think that is a fair tradeoff for the economic advantages.

Basically, if you add up the power costs of one weapon, plus a switch, plus a sarge or two, you can spend over 100 power easy on your tacs. If you want the sarge anyway (I normally do), for about the price of one tac weapon you can have sternguard, which will always do decent damage to everything (superior damage to commanders and light infantry under realistic circumstances), and won't cost any more power for the remainder of the game.

On the subject of free/reduced cost tac upgrades, IMO that's a bad idea. If there's a problem with the upgrades then they should be individually buffed rather than making them ubersternguard mk2. The only issues that need to be addressed are

1) loss of levels/xp when upgrading to sternguard. Tacs are usually on the verge or at lvl 2 by the time I'm considering sternguard, and it's somewhat illogical that swapping out vanilla tacs for the chapter's elite results in a loss of HP. If an XP transfer isn't possible, I'd say give them HP equivalent to lvl2 tacs and reduce their leveling bonuses so they cap out at lvl 4 vanilla tac HP.

2) I think the missile launcher verges on UP and could use some spicing up myself.

I also don't think "you're only limited to one" is a good reason to buff something. That way lies DOWI autopurchase kasrkyns, terminators, etc

IMHO etc etc

[Arbit]

WHAT FOLLOWS IS PURELY THEORETICAL, IF YOU DETECT HERESY CONTACT YOUR LOCAL COMMISAR:

....

I'd make the Sternguard a dedicated combat squad, and have them do competitive damage to each of those three infantry types (slightly more against heavy and super heavy than a Tactical Squad w/plasma gun and Kraken Rounds active) when using the appropriate ammo. I might also get rid of their +50% capping speed and lower the ability of Sternguard to gen-bash with any of their ammo types (or allow Dragonfire rounds to damage buildings, with slightly less efficiency than a flamer, in order to give that round type an additional use)

Just wanted to say here that this is more or less copy-pasting MoT CSM into the SM roster, plus antigarrison capability.

[Magus Magi]

Arbit, you're not wrong. The theoretical rework which I would subject Sternguard to does make them into, essentially, a MoT CSM squad. The main difference is the ammo switching, the number you could purchase, the anti-garrison capability, TSKNF, and the other units with which they are paired on the battlefield. Keeping in mind that you can only get a single Sternguard squad, I don't think that having them fill a dedicated anti-infantry role at range should be offensive to anyone. As a tier 2 squad, they would provide a clear benefit to a SM player while still forcing you to choose between them and the more versatile Tactical Marine squad.

And instead of MoT CSM, you might as well have compared them to Kasrkin w/plas or Storm Troopers w/assault. I like the idea of Sternguard filling a ranged, dedicated anti-infantry, role in the SM army. That way Tacs and Sternguard would enjoy distinct battlefield roles while both remaining engaging options. I'm not bothered that they'd be similar to MoT CSM.

That said, my rework was purely theoretical. I maintain my position on the three core issues which I would like to see looked at in ELITE: Vengeance range and reload, Tac special/heavy weapon pricing on repurchase, and loss of Tac levels with Sternguard upgrade.

[Codex]

At least from my perspective after this hypothetical rework I would pick up sternguard even less often than before. The way that I play with 1 tac, that 1 tac is important to me in filling a utility role i.e. it picks up the slack where it needs to be done, and also gives flexibility with the fast cap. Considering it would cut off the missile option AND no longer give the faster cap, that sounds like a highly situational upgrade for my playstyle, even more so than it is now considering I tend to be looking at level 2 and a half by that point.

[Nurland]

Arbit, you're not wrong. The theoretical rework which I would subject Sternguard to does make them into, essentially, a MoT CSM squad. The main difference is the ammo switching, the number you could purchase, the anti-garrison capability, TSKNF, and the other units with which they are paired on the battlefield.

So you that would essentially make them cheaper and more versatile MoT CSM?