Dark Reapers

[Forestradio]

Remember the Dark Reapers from DOW1? The ones who did heavy bolter type damage, had no setup time, had heavy infantry armor, and could run around with FoF just as fast as jump troops?

Thankfully, they didn't reappear in retail. In elite, they don't have FoF (thank god), BUT they are capable of doing all of the following

1. More plasma dps than basically any other ranged squad in the game. Their Aspect increases this by another 10 %

2. They have heavy infantry armor, and their exarch increases their health by 10 %

3. Before you say they can't counter melee: YES THEY CAN. Their pinning fire ability suppresses and increases their rate of fire. So they can dakka you while dakkaing you while dakkaing you.

4. Exarch can be given a nifty longed-ranged disruption ability that deals pretty good damage to squads with not a lot of models.

This is too much. Too many abilities and waaaay too much health.

They are supposed to counter termies, nobz, etc. Well fine. Put them in T3 then.

If they are to remain in T2, and hard counter every single HI squad there is, then

a) Take away their HI armor.

b) take away the health buff their exarch gives.

This makes them bleed a lot more power yes. But for all the raw dps they do, they should be a glass cannon.

Thoughts? If I missed anything that makes dark reapers a pushover to counter, please let me know...................................

[Ace of Swords]

They do abit too much damage, but other than that im more worried when I see warp spiders, especially if my opponent knows how to use them, reapers aren't a big deal to force off and don't provide much utility in general.

[Asmon]

Wtf is this thread. Seriously.

Dude you are even wrong when you try to provide data on dow1 DR. Yes they did have a set-up time, and FoF was a global upgrade that was not available before a while.

DR do not counter melee. Can you even find one melee unit that would be beaten up by DR alone?

I could go on and correct everything else but I'll just say go l2p instead, and come back with accurate statistics.

[Forestradio]

Wtf is this thread. Seriously.

Dude you are even wrong when you try to provide data on dow1 DR. Yes they did have a set-up time, and FoF was a global upgrade that was not available before a while.

DR do not counter melee. Can you even find one melee unit that would be beaten up by DR alone?

I could go on and correct everything else but I'll just say go l2p instead, and come back with accurate statistics.

DOW1 reapers DID NOT have a setup time. They couldn't fire on the move. There's a huge difference. There are multiple replays of jump troops chasing them around and not doing anything while they had FoF on..........

You want statistics? Fine. Since the wiki on this site doesn't have eldar data yet, all these are from in game unit/upgrade descriptions.

Unit Size: Small

Models: Four, +1 exarch

Armor type: Heavy Infantry (the game says infantry, but that is wrong, as shown by Indrid's shooty units video)

DPS per model: 15.17, increases by 10 percent with their aspect

Health per model: 150, increases by 10 percent with their exarch

Entire squad health with exarch: 960 (exarch adds 15 per model, so he himself has 300 health)

Abilities

Pinning Fire: The squad lays down a hail of missiles for 12 seconds, increasing their rate of fire and suppressing their targets. Costs 60 energy

Tempest Barrage: Fires a cluster of missiles to damage all targets in a large area. Costs 60 energy.

Pinning Fire suppresses. You know, like Aimin, Wotz dat? suppresses. Suppression is universally agreed upon as a pretty solid melee counter. But Pinning Fire still does damage while it's active!!!! In fact, it increases their damage (the game doesn't say how much faster it makes them fire).

Finally, their DPS. With their exarch and aspect, they do 83.435 plasma dps (not sure how much it is with Pinning Fire) as a squad. That can soft counter transports, and absolutely shred every other heavy infantry squad in the game.

Finally, instead of acting like a real jerk when I post a topic you don't like, how about you quote some of those statistics you want, like I just did?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

...
a) Take away their HI armor.
...

please do.

i don't know if you've ever tried to use them but they get forced off by everything and bleed out the ass. they're strong but not very hard to deal with and a poor choice against non HI/SHI.

[Indrid]

They are in T2 because of Ogryns.

[Kvek]

They are in T2 because of Ogryns.

What, Eldar already have a shitload of counters to ogryns, they dont need Dark Reapers. All you needed in retail was a levi field/entangle/op throw and then just attack ground wraithguard and force em off, or just plasma nade/suppression

[Codex]

Finally, instead of acting like a real jerk when I post a topic you don't like, how about you quote some of those statistics you want, like I just did?

Let's try to stay in the realm of fact as opposed to the realm of flaming.

@Kvek

Think of it this way: all the ideas you gave that Eldar could use to counter Ogryns were all tricks and gimmicks, which is generally not good. If there's a unit someone can get and the only counter for that race is to pull off high precision moves then you have something unnecessarily hard to counter for no good reason, and that isn't balanced. What if you fuck up the chain levi=> grenade? Lost engagement? It makes sense for Eldar have to access to plasma weapons imo.

@Forestradio

I'm inclined to believe that Dark Reapers are not overpowered. And I'll explain why:

You noted the DRs' high damage output and the fact they are pretty resilient, with their heavy infantry armor. This makes the DR have more effective hp in range brawls where they're not eating plasma fire, but it confers no protection to melee. Unlike say tacs, DRs do not have the melee resistance aura (40% for many squads) and as a result melee tears them a new one.

Another part of Eldar squads' ability to stay on the field is their mobility. You can keep troops with fleet of foot available much further advanced than if you didn't have fleet of foot. Notice as well that melee doesn't usually hard counter aspect dire avengers, since they can fleet away if being engaged.

As you also noted, DRs do not have FoF available at all, meaning that they are a prime target to jump on and force off. They have no ability to disengage from melee and as a result will usually have to retreat instantly once they are tied up.

So, let's look at what Dark Reapers actually do for you:

Pros:
They provide very respectable plasma damage, something which Eldar lacked before
Their abilities are good
And... that's about it.

Cons:
It doesn't force your opponent to buy anything new to counter your composition. I will explain that further in a moment.
You are much more prone to bleeding through the mid game especially if you went for quite a heavy t1. This would cause economic problems further down the road.

So what do I mean about forcing your opponent's hand? Consider the old meta for SM: tac, ASM, librarian. Now, I (along with many others) had a lot of success with this build. Smite and VOT were definitely OP, but together they could just about compensate for the weaknesses of having an all-infantry based army.

The weakness of going librarian so quickly is that it seriously limits your options. Librarian is not all too useful without upgrades, and as such requires time and investment into him. Meanwhile, your opponent builds a Deff Dredd, and has forced you to buy Melta and tac missile for 65 power! Or you buy a HBD to go with your libby, but that's still 30 power and if you upgrade the lascannon you're walking around with a useless squad even if the Deff dies. And you still have no vehicles so he doesn't have any compulsion to buy AV himself, streamlining his build order.

The point is that there is some advantage in disrupting what your opponent wants to do. Forcing an ork to stay in T2 and buy some AV is most definitely a win. So really think about the game impact a Librarian can make: his impact scales very well with levels, but also upgrades. Thus he makes a relatively small initial impact but grows throughout the game. Compare this to a Razorback, Dreadnought: they have a large game impact if microed well and also forces your opponent to make the decision to get AV or tech to T3 to get past your own vehicles. I believe these are the reasons why you don't see Librarian builds very often anymore.

Applying this logic to Dark Reapers, Dark Reapers are just countered by jump troops or more mobile melee. Sure, they can suppress, but at the same time they are arriving in T2 and suppression isn't as important in T2 since it's easier to counter or use unit coordination to overcome the Dark Reapers. So we'll say that they are hard countered by jump troops, and soft countered by general melee (very generalised I know). In that case, we see that Dark Reapers' counters exist in an earlier tier, and can be boosted with squad leaders in T2. And there really isn't any question about Jump troops beating down dark reapers. And by going Dark Reapers, you've given your opponent a free hand to bring in a vehicle, something that you would need to deal with.

You say they have great abilities. Well, good. As I said, their overall game impact considering how good vehicles are when they first head, Dark Reapers have to contest with that and make good impact. In the end, Dark Reapers are just fire support. They don't have the big impact of Wraithguard, Warp Spiders, Wraithlord, Falcon... Wraithguard can wipe squads or force massive retreats, and generally a fast vehicle can ensure a gen bash. Can Dark Reapers ensure a gen bash? Not as convincingly as a vehicle would, that's for sure. A vehicle does so much for you. It ensures some map control because he's spending more time trying to maneuver around you rather than roaming freely. And because of this Dark Reapers are always going to be situational and specialised rather than very good all the time.

TL;DR:

Dark Reapers are generally low game impact units. Yes they do respectable dps, but they are not game changers like the rest of Eldar T2. As such it's perhaps a dubious build to get them first thing in T2, as it applies less pressure on your opponent to respond accordingly. As fire support it seems to me that it would be a concession to have to buy them as the second unit in T2, considering how many Eldar goodies there are in T3.

[Kvek]

@Kvek

Think of it this way: all the ideas you gave that Eldar could use to counter Ogryns were all tricks and gimmicks, which is generally not good. If there's a unit someone can get and the only counter for that race is to pull off high precision moves then you have something unnecessarily hard to counter for no good reason, and that isn't balanced. What if you fuck up the chain levi=> grenade? Lost engagement? It makes sense for Eldar have to access to plasma weapons imo.

Yeah, if you fuck up levi you probably lost the engagment, but tell me, how do you fuck up entangle+wg fire ? or lol throw + wg ? you just can't, also with levi field all you needed was a shuriken, even tho that thing is now countered by spotter.

[Ace of Swords]

They are in T2 because of Ogryns.

I don't know where the myth of plasma beign the only counter to SHI generated, eldar are perfectly capable to deal with ogrys and terminators in retail. and so in elite.

Beside the fact, that it's way more damaging to the eldar itself to buy dark reapers vs IG rather than banshees and that's saying alot.

[Forestradio]

every eldar commander gets an ability that complete shutdowns ogryns

levitation field, entangle, warp throw, doom, farseer rune armor storm

Caeltos has said that they were put in to help eldar vs terminators and other powerful HI squads in T3. Put them in T3, or take away their HI armor.

As for their dps, 83 plasma dps allows them to kill that dumb tac sergeant standing in front of his brothers in around 3 seconds. Just like that, poof!

That's all I am going to say on this thread. I posted the statistics as was asked. Other people can decide whether or not they are valid.

[Torpid]

Stop with the BS that reapers stop ogryns. I have never in my life ever seen an eldar get reapers against my IG, that would be suicide since they aren't going to scratch my stormptroopers or my guardsmen. It's just plain wrong. Ogryns have no way of dealing with suppression and so suppression is a hard counter. You can combine it with anything, kurnous, WG, nades, entangle, autarch bomb, shees, autarch, psychic storm, kinetic shot, eldar can easily control ogryns without DR... And regarding what codex said about eldar having no hard counters, that's fine, because eldar is a race of gimmicks and tricks, that's how they win. You can't play eldar like you play chaos and expect to win, they aren't made for head-on collisions and you know that codex.

Dark reapers are an unnecessary unit with absolutely no purpose, I never see them used in 1v1 ever, but when they are they are such a cheesy unit since they are so one-dimensional but kill anything with HI/SHI in seconds. Horrible addition to the eldar roster.

Also where are my t2 flash gitz with blastas to counter ogryns?????

[Ace of Swords]

^Yeah id also like to see my tacts equipping 4 plasma guns to deal with ogyns.

[Dark Riku]

Wtf is this thread. Seriously.

WTF is this post again. Seriously.

Dude you are even wrong when you try to provide data on dow1 DR. Yes they did have a set-up time, and FoF was a global upgrade that was not available before a while.

What's your point here? He was just referring to the old DoW.

DR do not counter melee.
Can you even find one melee unit that would be beaten up by DR alone?

Since when does suppression not counter melee anymore?
Almost every footslogging melee unit?

I could go on and correct everything else but I'll just say go l2p instead, and come back with accurate statistics.

I suggest you follow your own advice.


That being said. I find that DR's do way too much dmg. They can even deal with transports on their own due to the high amount of plasma damage. Reminds me of the old plasma tactical blobs of doom. These guys juts shred through (S)HI for a reason unknown to me. They should at least be T3. And/or receive lower dps.
I wouldn't mind them seeing removed either.

[Bahamut]

^Yeah id also like to see my tacts equipping 4 plasma guns to deal with ogyns.

pure win!

[FiSH]

Also where are my t2 flash gitz with blastas to counter ogryns?????

weirdboy's got that one covered.

[Kvek]

Also where are my t2 flash gitz with blastas to counter ogryns?????

weirdboy's got that one covered.

Exactly! So why add a unit that counters Ogryns if an another unit can already do that ?

[FiSH]

Exactly! So why add a unit that counters Ogryns if an another unit can already do that ?

I thought Codex put it pretty well, but to reiterate: because multiple things need to happen precisely for eldar to counter Ogryns. On the other hand, weirdboy can actually deal with Ogryns single-handedly (not to mention how good he is against IG anyways)

@ Torpid
IG heroes' armor upgrades give Ogryns relatively easy time dealing with suppression, so saying a shuriken counters Ogryns is not fair. This doesn't apply to Inq, of course.

[Cyris]

I'm really surprised by this thread. I've found Dark Reapers to be a slow moving, quick bleeding unit that requires a number of upgrades to be purchased before they achieve their full potential. And once that full potential is reached, it consists of being able to outshoot non-sternguard tacticals or apply dps to S/HI if and only if the reapers are completely and totaly un-molested. Their suppression skill takes too long to work on melee units carging right at them, and they are painfully slow with a lot health per model score. Their plasma damage type (-30% damage I think) causes them to straight up lose fire-fights to anything wearing light armor. The HI armor type I think does them a dis-service more then not, as in T2 plasma damage is more common, and power melee even more so. They are good against GK/SM for sure, but jump troops often cause auto-retreat and/or losses, even with support. Guardians do almost everything they do better, for less cost and more versatility.

In short, I see them as slow moving, fast bleeding, high cost guardians with worse skills. Their virtue is being ranged plasma damage on a faction that I think needed it. They need buffs, no nerfs. Torpid hit it on the head saying picking them up to beat 1 squad of Ogryns is suicide. Reapers do jack all to any other unit IG fields.

From where I sit, Eldar Webways and Fire Prism need nerfs. The rest of the faction is fine, or in need of buffs, with Reapers squarely in the "needs buffs" department.

[Torpid]

Exactly! So why add a unit that counters Ogryns if an another unit can already do that ?

I thought Codex put it pretty well, but to reiterate: because multiple things need to happen precisely for eldar to counter Ogryns. On the other hand, weirdboy can actually deal with Ogryns single-handedly (not to mention how good he is against IG anyways)

@ Torpid
IG heroes' armor upgrades give Ogryns relatively easy time dealing with suppression, so saying a shuriken counters Ogryns is not fair. This doesn't apply to Inq, of course.

Hahahahahahaha, somebody actually gets the anti-suppression armour on the LG. Bionic eye does do well, oh wait, then they just entangle you and wraithguard you to death and you lose your ogryns in 2 seconds, interesting. Please don't even go there. Eldar have ample counters to ogryns without reapers, you're going to make me cry if you deny this anymore ='~{

[Ace of Swords]

Exactly, it's really simple as that, if the IG gets a wargear to counter supression then the Eldar has a wargear to completely stop the ogryns from moving or just throwing them away, and by the time they can start running to the supression the effect already wore off or they took too much damage.

SHI doesn't make you immortal, far from it, Eldar had no probs in dealing with it.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

i don't get why people are talking about ogryns in relation to dark reapers. i've always bought banshees in t2 if the enemy decided to use ogryns. the banshees are a good counter to ogryns, especially in combination with a plat, and sentinels are either gone or not going to encounter banshees in stomp range.

[SirSid]

I agree with codex hear HOWEVER they do put out a crazy amount of damage offset by thare bleed potential i feel.

This unit rarley is used in my eldar roster however it has won me games dew to shear mass DPS burts especialy with tripile gardians , like u see vs IG. also with IG perhaps getting them is not the best for killing thare infintry howevr if ogrens do come out then i say get the reapers cuz they also pure shut down the comanders as well.

[Orkfaeller]

SHI doesn't make you immortal, far from it, Eldar had no probs in dealing with it.

I allways asumed Ogryns are just heavy Infantry? Or am I wrong there?

[Ace of Swords]

SHI doesn't make you immortal, far from it, Eldar had no probs in dealing with it.

I allways asumed Ogryns are just heavy Infantry? Or am I wrong there?

They are the only T2 SHI in the whole game.

[Bahamut]

tyrant guard is t2 as well

[Kvek]

tyrant guard is t2 as well

true, but he also can't retreat so he's half-vehicle

[Torpid]

tyrant guard is t2 as well

true, but he also can't retreat so he's half-vehicle

He actually gets vehicle armour when he goes into shieldwall... 3/4 vehicle?

[Orkfaeller]

If its 3/4 of a Vehicle, then Orbs of the Omnisiah should have 3/4th of its effect on it. >:(

[Tex]

@Cyris,

If dark reapers get a buff, I will quit the mod strait up. How you can possibly think they need a buff is completely over my head. I normally respect your opinions and view them as well thought out, but this one blows my fucking mind.

You are correct in saying that dark reapers will lose strait up fire fights to light infantry stuff such as shootas guardians termas etc, but shooting at those things with DR would be called miss-use.

What dark reapers do for eldar (IMO) is effectively take the skill requirement down in what is SUPPOSED TO BE a tricky area for them, that area being dealing with heavies in t2 and onward. See wraithguard already do this, but they can miss easily. Reapers will simply rip commanders, heavy armor, and super heavy armor units to shreds without missing. They come with a handy suppression skill which works pretty quickly, and most importantly, THEY COST ALMOST NOTHING! The upgrades are completely unnecessary for these guys to make a massive impact on the battlefield. It is a huge reason why using nobs, termis, ogryns etc is almost impossible against eldar under even circumstances.

Dark reapers are a t3 unit in t2 that can be purchased and upgraded cheaper than flash gitz or karskins.