should chaos terminators be more tanky?

[saltychipmunk]

So I have played a bunch with all the terminators and one thing that really struck me was how much more time I had to waste keeping my chaos terminators out of fights.


I found it unbearably difficult to keep their hit points up to a satisfactory level for most of the game. In fact It felt as if most of their time was spent slowly walking back to base.

This is in stark contrast to the gk and sm terminators who I just use the libby abilities or the speed shout on to get back to home base fast. they also have have more unit hp despite being only slightly more expensive than chaos terminators.

It was tedious that i had to put so much effort into pampering these so called uber elite warriors of chaos .

Note yes i did my best to use heretic worship when i could , but i play random and almost always get chaos sorc so.... T-T.

So my question is this: Since we really don't want chaos to have more mobility , should we make chaos terminators more tanky? not necessarily give them more hp , rather give them more hp regeneration or something , something that would enable them to stay on the field so that we may enjoy using them as a unit.

Thoughts?

[Ace of Swords]

lmost always get chaos sorc so.... T-T.

Use the sigil of the rift, there you have a great setup counter and teleport without having to spend 425/85.

Also, in general Chaos termies are way better than loyalist termies, sure with their default storm with bolters they are kind of poor because of the hp, but all of the chaos heroes have access to the melee variant, which raises the HP to the same of the LC termies of the FC, and the autocannon is probably the best upgrade ever, anti everything on a decently long range, and literally wrecks everything, especially eldar/orks/nids/ig, it also increases way more the rate of which the debuff of the terminators is applied aswell as once you upgrade to it you can just keep only 1 termies model if you don't want to reinforce them, also, overall the chaos termies cost 100 req less to call in and iirc 50 less req to reinforce.

[crazyman64335]

in general i'd like to see termies get more tanky in general, both SM and CSM and maybe GK (haven't really played with their terms much lately). Their cost isn't really representative of their on the battlefield performance, but that's just my opinion.

[Asmon]

In a word: No. They can benefit from worship and that's quite enough to explain their lower hp when compared to SM Terminators.

[Nurland]

Wouldn't say worship entirely justifies the lower hp pool but Autocannon upgrade and the 100 req lower cost do make me think they don't need more hp.

[Forestradio]

Chaos Terminators have less health, BUT

1) Can be worshipped. Awesome.

2) get long ranged AV (no other terminator variant gets this)

3) their debuff is FAR superior to any other terminator passive (inspiration, drain energy, paladin aura)

They're fine as is.

[Tex]

Chaos Terminators have less health, BUT

1) Can be worshipped. Awesome.

2) get long ranged AV (no other terminator variant gets this)

3) their debuff is FAR superior to any other terminator passive (inspiration, drain energy, paladin aura)

They're fine as is.

"can get long ranged AV (no other terminator variant gets this)"

Ahem... cyclone missles...

[Kvek]

Chaos Terminators have less health, BUT

1) Can be worshipped. Awesome.

2) get long ranged AV (no other terminator variant gets this)

3) their debuff is FAR superior to any other terminator passive (inspiration, drain energy, paladin aura)

They're fine as is.

"can get long ranged AV (no other terminator variant gets this)"

Ahem... cyclone missles...

And they also usually don't hit moving targets, can't be used all the time (they have cooldown, but autocannon can just reload)
can't be used on the move, so yeah they can harm vehicles, but only those that are slow.

[Asmon]

3) their debuff is FAR superior to any other terminator passive (inspiration, drain energy, paladin aura)

No, times one thousand.

[Forestradio]

3) their debuff is FAR superior to any other terminator passive (inspiration, drain energy, paladin aura)

No, times one thousand.

Could you please explain why?

Energy drain on GK termies is basically useless. Paladins aura is okay.

chaos termies decrease enemy damage AND increase damage taken. This makes it devestating vs stuff like shootas, termas, guardsmen, etc

As for cyclone missiles, their animation takes too long for them to start firing. The missiles are also so spread out that they mostly only hit big stuff like land raiders. Preds and other tanks just drive forward. Give me an autocannon, which is good vs BOTH vehicles and infantry over a cyclone launcher.

[FiSH]

without necessarily thinking about the numbers, generally speaking:
chaos debuff -> only terminators can do it
SM inspire -> multiple units can inspire, they all stack.

because of snowballing, inspiration > chaos termi debuff

[crazyman64335]

3) their debuff is FAR superior to any other terminator passive (inspiration, drain energy, paladin aura)

No, times one thousand.

Could you please explain why?

Energy drain on GK termies is basically useless. Paladins aura is okay.

chaos termies decrease enemy damage AND increase damage taken. This makes it devestating vs stuff like shootas, termas, guardsmen, etc

As for cyclone missiles, their animation takes too long for them to start firing. The missiles are also so spread out that they mostly only hit big stuff like land raiders. Preds and other tanks just drive forward. Give me an autocannon, which is good vs BOTH vehicles and infantry over a cyclone launcher.

Are you serious? I agree that cyclone launcher could certainly use a little buff, but saying energy drain on GK termis is useless? That's just nonsense. Dooming everything that is energy dependent is useless? No it's not.

[Forestradio]

"Are you serious? I agree that cyclone launcher could certainly use a little buff, but saying energy drain on GK termis is useless? That's just nonsense. Dooming everything that is energy dependent is useless? No it's not."

I have a lot more respect for the GK force weapons with hammerhand and mind blades than I do for their energy drain. It's a nice addition from the lore, but not a game changer. Might be useful vs commanders with bubble shields or jump troops, but your termies turn them into mincemeat anyway.

Chaos debuff makes the chaos termies themselves do more damage to their targets, while SM termies only inspire OTHER infantry, not themselves. Which makes sense, since the forces of Chaos are more self-serving than their Loyalist brethren.

[Asmon]

Could you please explain why?

Energy drain on GK termies is basically useless. Paladins aura is okay.

chaos termies decrease enemy damage AND increase damage taken. This makes it devestating vs stuff like shootas, termas, guardsmen, etc...

As crazyman's already said to drain energy is extremely powerful against the right units. Plus it is passive which makes it even better.

About how SM Inspiration on kill is far better than Chaos demoralization, it is merely a question of synergy. SM are all about Inspiration and to have your units constantly inspired is the key of victory. Not only they do more damage but they also receive less. It is coherent with the superior staying power that is SM's signature.

Chaos demoralization only works as a little bonus that shall never plays the key role in the outcome of battles. Yes it is a nice ability, but it doesn't particularly shine when compared to SM Inspiration.

Also, next time you think something is far better than something else, perhaps you should check the figures first, because in this case they speak for themselves : +5% damage dealt, -10% received suppression in radius 35 against -5% damage dealt, +2% damage taken in radius 25.

Paladins' aura is like a constant SM Inspiration so it's more than ok to me.

Also I'm unsure about demoralization's stacking or reseting effect.

[Ace of Swords]

I'd say all the buffs are in the right place, but the cyclone missile launcher cannot be considered AV on the same level of the autocannon which is just point and click and retains full damage+splash on infantry at all times without just beign usefull with an ability which as a quite small ranged AND a deadzone iirc, aswell as it spreads quite alot and it's slow, making it quite hard to hit a vehicle, also, somehow I feel like the Chaos termies debuff spreads out more to the enemies compared to the inspiration granted by the SM termies to the allies, but that's just a feeling im not sure if there is any truth behind it.

Oh and well, the debuff also works on vehicles Im not sure if inspiration does the same.

[Asmon]

Only Infantry can be inspired for SM. Perhaps Paladins can inspire vehicles. Are you sure that Chaos Terminators demoralize vehicles as well? That's weird.

[Ace of Swords]

I cannot be 100% sure, but i've seen the debuffing red aura around dreds, so unless it's only graphical It should be working.

[Broodwich]

In response to the op, no they dont need to be. They are the same as sm terms except cheaper. The claws debuff unlike sm's too. Also any hero can get either the ultimate melee or ultimate ranged variant, unlike sm who need FC to get their melee ones.

In response to asmon, sm was already built with tons of inspires and stuff, chaos got it added and adds to their already formidable arsenal

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I'm not going to say that the Chaos Terminators Demoralize effect is weak. But guys, you are understimating the other Terminators buffs.

- Assault and normal SM Terminators increase the damage of the others squads when they do when kill something. If we have in mind that SM infantry squads don't do as much damage as other similar squads, this inspiration fits very well with the SM design.

- Paladins are in Beta 4 Terminators with a passive Nurgle Workshipp aura with a 2.5 hp/s healing rate. Considering the GK design, with high HP squads the healing aura makes even more difficult to drop models in combat, and out of combat helps to GK to keep map control, avoiding in some way to retreat wounded squads.

- GK Terminators energy drain aura it's more situational, true, but could be a pain in the ass for energy-intensive commanders/races, and more combined with some of the GK energy drain/ability denied abilities.

Ontopic:
I would like to see a hp increase (with a cost increase included, of course) on Chaos Terminators. But except that, they are pretty balanced.

[saltychipmunk]

paladins are very slow and to take advantage of their buffs you need to keep units in proximity. In open maps one can argue they arent good for map control. holding one point really well? yeah they will crush that task, more than one point ? .... mmmmm not so much

[Torpid]

By the time paladins are out map control becomes significantly less important. Just force off the opposing blob then cap, in t3 you don't NEED a dedicated ninja capper like you really must in t1.

[crazyman64335]

paladins are very slow and to take advantage of their buffs you need to keep units in proximity. In open maps one can argue they arent good for map control. holding one point really well? yeah they will crush that task, more than one point ? .... mmmmm not so much

nothing is forcing you to get termies every single match. If the maps are open i'd recommend getting a tank. Not to mention paladins are supposed to have support, hence their good buffs. And terms are never good for map control, ever. They're for tanking damage and if your opponent ignores them then punishing them by dishing out alot of damage.

[Asmon]

I would say that you need a dedicated ninja capping unit in T3 much more than in T1.

[Torpid]

Well,I think it's more of a playstyle thing. I very rarely manage to get myself into a balanced t3 scenario, usually I've either won or lost by that point.

[saltychipmunk]

Yeah that is what i tend to try for , but alas one does not always get that wish.