I can't stop talking about Tacs n' Sternguard...

[Magus Magi]

I think there may have been some miscommunication, my (1) and (2) were references to the original post I made about a theoretical Sternguard rework. As part of this discussion about making Sternguard a dedicated anti-infantry combat unit I maintained that they would need to lose certain qualities in order to help distinguish their role from that of Tactical Marines and in order to keep Tacs relevant. That's where I got the loss of vehicle damage and the 50% cap speed from.

I'd also like to point out that I admitted a while back that I know that the rework of Sternguard won't ever happen. There have always been three key points, which are more realistic, that this thread was originally designed to advocate for. I find this discussion entertaining, and I love to hear other player's thoughts, but I hope it doesn't distract from those three things.

As for the Hellfire Bolts. I think it's sad for that to be main purpose of Sternguard. And I'm clearly not the only one.

I've seen you play Asmon, wrecking people with your mad Warlock skills, and I never thought, "Of course! Sternguard are the dedicated solution to that problem!"

There are some new units in this mod that you look at and go, "Yup, those/that kicks arse. I know why he got those." (flash gitz / dark reapers / the warrior squad leader for herms/terms, the Doom, the painboy, Grey Knight Purifiers, Kasrkin ...oh KASRKIN...I...I love you so...so much...I may need a minute...) Even if you don't see these units often, when you do you know how insanely awesome they are.

Sternguard just don't do for their army what the units above do. I really don't think they feel impactful enough or unique enough. Frankly, I think the same can be said of the Vanguard vets, and (to a certain extent...) the Whirlwind (although the Whirlwind is definitely unique, and the faster missiles and quicker cool down on the hunter killer REALLY hit the spot).

Maybe the two (out of three, but the third applies to Tacs) things I really care about are enough. If Sternguard had the levels of the basic Tactical marine squad you gave up to purchase them, and their Vengeance rounds operated at full range, maybe I'd be able to stop talking about Tacs n' Sternguard.

[Magus Magi]

Compare to vanguard. They have slightly more health than ASM, and power melee with better all-around dps, but they lack melta bombs and thus suffer vs vehicles.

They are not a straight up upgrade, esp if your ASM already have a few levels.

This may just be me...but I don't think comparing them to Vanguard Vets helps the "Sternguard are fine the way they are" argument. I REALLY don't want to broaden this thread to include Vanguard Vet balance...

I will say that having a unit do better DPS and lack vehicle damage sounds VERY familiar...(see my previous ideas on how I would change Sternguard). If you like what Caeltos did with Vanguard, then I would think that you'd be really excited about what I'm proposing...

[ThongSong]

I do love vanguards. if you can get them to lvl 4 they utterly demolish all forms of HI/SHI. I love watching them shred terminators, even had them take on a baneblade and win before :3

Going back to sternguards, they're absolutely fantastic vs light infantry races and the really help provide a solid ranged dps base vs orks, elder and IG where tacs would simply just not really have much of an impact.

against heavy infantry, I kind of liked where their vengeance rounds were before. right now the long reload time just kills it. right now it feels that they don't really serve much of a use against any race that can field heavy infantry.

[Dark Riku]

@Panda. SM's bleed and when they bleed they bleed hard.
And they have higher upkeep which is the same as bleed.

The main points are still the same (like Magus Magi said):
Vengeance rounds should revert to their old range and reload speed now that Kraken rounds and Vengeance rounds have been rebalanced against infantry.
Sternguard should keep the levels accumulated by their base Tactical squad.


Then of topic on the vangaurd note. Who ever gets these? °_O
The only instance I can think of for getting these is when you buy a new asm squad in T3 but then you are better of with terminators or even better a pred. ~Or 3v3~
Their levels should stay when upgraded and/or be in T2. With fist upgrade in T3 so you forgo any chance of av dmg with the loss of the very needed meltabomb.

[Panda]

@Panda. SM's bleed and when they bleed they bleed hard.
And they have higher upkeep which is the same as bleed.

Sorry but higher upkeep does not have the same impact as bleed. And SM bleed very rarely - unless there is a discrepancy in skill level, SM will spend less reinforcing in any given MU than practically any other race, possibly excepting a LA for tyranids because he is a bleed machine.

The main points are still the same (like Magus Magi said):
Vengeance rounds should revert to their old range and reload speed now that Kraken rounds and Vengeance rounds have been rebalanced against infantry.
Sternguard should keep the levels accumulated by their base Tactical squad.

You at least have a case for reverting Vengeance round range (although I think Vengeance rounds fill their soft av/building role quite nicely in current format).

Are you serious about SG keeping tac levels? Flamer tacs in T1 transitioning into Lv2 SG automatically in T2? Hellfire rounds power against commanders alone right off the bat would just be plain broken..please tell me you're joking

Vanguard seem like a Tier 2.5 unit to me, as in they are not good enough by the time T3 hits as you have to sacrifice high level ASM, but putting them in T2 would just be death to HI armour, especially since they will pick up levels fast and that hp will start spiralling.

And Magi, if you still believe tacs/SG need a buff then please answer my previous questions, specifically about each ammo type and why you think it fails in its intended role and why the best solution is a direct damage buff, because we can safely assume the role of SG is not going to change. Sorry mate but I ain't buying the argument of "trust homie, these niggas ain't good enuff, DAYUM WE GOTTA BUFFBUFFBUFF!!"

*no racism intended*

[Dark Riku]

Sorry but higher upkeep does not have the same impact as bleed.

You are right. Higher upkeep is worse since it's present at all time no matter how good you play and you can control bleed.

And SM bleed very rarely - unless there is a discrepancy in skill level, SM will spend less reinforcing in any given MU than practically any other race, possibly excepting a LA for tyranids because he is a bleed machine

That's plain bullshit.

You at least have a case for reverting Vengeance round range (although I think Vengeance rounds fill their soft av/building role quite nicely in current format).

It's in the previous post. I suggest you read it again.

Are you serious about SG keeping tac levels?

I'm super serious, now stop insulting me.

but putting them in T2 would just be death to HI armour, especially since they will pick up levels fast and that hp will start spiralling.

Please tell me more how KCSM/blood letters/banshees/stormboys/etc
(notice how some are T1) are not a "death sentence" to HI?

[Panda]

Higher upkeep is worse since it's present at all time no matter how good you play and you can control bleed.

It's that simple - you can just control bleed? I can think of a few replays from the new rumble tournament winner which might show that higher upkeep is not worse than bleed.

Panda wrote:
And SM bleed very rarely - unless there is a discrepancy in skill level, SM will spend less reinforcing in any given MU than practically any other race, possibly excepting a LA for tyranids because he is a bleed machine
That's plain bullshit.

You're friendly. What MU bleeds less than SM when against SM? Ok I stand corrected, if you go 3x sent and push your opponent out of the game then you will bleed less.

Panda wrote:
Are you serious about SG keeping tac levels?
I'm super serious, now stop insulting me.

I will try to be courteous here. I absolutely, like categorically, disagree with SG being able to keep their levels. Like I said, the flamer tac in T1 would transition insanely well into SG in T2. The XP acquired if you get a genbash off plus the damage to lots of models (all of whom will give you XP if they die) from a 15-power weapon and you could be consistently looking at lv2 tacs into lv2 sternguard very early in T2. You're not just arguing for a damage buff here, but a buff to all the stats that come with levelling. So I ask again how are they underperforming in current state?

[Kvek]

Higher upkeep is worse since it's present at all time no matter how good you play and you can control bleed.

It's that simple - you can just control bleed? I can think of a few replays from the new rumble tournament winner which might show that higher upkeep is not worse than bleed.

No, upkeep is worse, if you get 80 req less per minute, it's worse than some bleed usually, and yes, you can control bleed, all you have to do is retreat.
Or if you are bleeding a lot, and you have a lot of upkeep, that's even worse.

[Panda]

@Kvek
1. Teach me how to play since the game is so simple for you.

2. For god's sake of course 80 extra upkeep is worse than some bleed, it's like saying 30 degrees Fahrenheit is hotter than some temperatures.

3. Thanks for ignoring the rest of my post to go of topic

[taco86]

2. For god's sake of course 80 extra upkeep is worse than some bleed, it's like saying 30 degrees Fahrenheit is hotter than some temperatures.

This one made me laugh, but more at you, not at kvek.

[Torpid]

@Panda. SM's bleed and when they bleed they bleed hard.
And they have higher upkeep which is the same as bleed.

The main points are still the same (like Magus Magi said):
Vengeance rounds should revert to their old range and reload speed now that Kraken rounds and Vengeance rounds have been rebalanced against infantry.
Sternguard should keep the levels accumulated by their base Tactical squad.


Then of topic on the vangaurd note. Who ever gets these? °_O
The only instance I can think of for getting these is when you buy a new asm squad in T3 but then you are better of with terminators or even better a pred. ~Or 3v3~
Their levels should stay when upgraded and/or be in T2. With fist upgrade in T3 so you forgo any chance of av dmg with the loss of the very needed meltabomb.

I'm shocked to see you saying this Riku. Absolutely not. Retain their levels? No. Just because they only fulfill a very small niche role in 1v1 doesn't mean they need a buff. They do their job - namely commanders and light infantry control very well. And they can also be used to prevent a nice bit of bleed if you lose 2 tac models (and they prevent further sergeant losses). Just no.

Vanguard either need to have no heavy melee aspect and have their power melee damage buffed slightly to make them a solid AHI unit (maybe buff the PS model's damage by like 6 each or something). Or, alternatively they need some proper AV capabilities. The power fist model could possibly grant a 20% movement snare for 2 seconds each time it hits, or just buff it's power in the first place, but both changes to their AV and AI capabilities shouldn't be made as that would undermine the purpose of the unit imo and despite the general flexibility of sm units, it would probably warrant an increase in the cost of vanguard in the first place.

[Kvek]

@Kvek
1. Teach me how to play since the game is so simple for you.

stop insulting everybody please ?

[Ace of Swords]

Vanguards simply do not have the Healt necessary for their role, that's why they are useless and the melta bomb is way more useful, why would I lose all the levels, the melta bomb and even pay for that in T3 when the vans, even when supported cannot face any T3 melee squad?

Their current melee damage is fine, they simply cannot stay enough on the field to deal it, something I would like them to see doing would be Inspiration since this problem went undetected for some time, but ALL the sources for Inspiration the SM has are, for keeping it short and clear, Shit.

Libby? We already covered why

Dred, the melee dred is rarely useful for more than 1 minute when fieled, and sure the ranged dred retains the inspiration on meleee kill here but how often are you going to use a ranged dred in melee? Never.

Terminators? Also was already covered, too many sources that kill them in literally seconds, most of the time they aren't worth the investment.

[Kvek]

Vanguard either need to have no heavy melee aspect and have their power melee damage buffed slightly to make them a solid AHI unit (maybe buff the PS model's damage by like 6 each or something). Or, alternatively they need some proper AV capabilities. The power fist model could possibly grant a 20% movement snare for 2 seconds each time it hits, or just buff it's power in the first place, but both changes shouldn't be made as that would undermine the purpose of the unit imo and despite the general flexibility of sm units, it would probably warrant an increase in the cost of vanguard in the first place.

They could get a little melta pistol.

[Torpid]

Could do, but I'm not sure that would justify getting vanguard in a situation where you need some av alongside your beefy asm. They lack the 6 speed of KCSM you see.

[Panda]

This one made me laugh, but more at you, not at kvek.

Excuse me? I will happily noob stomp and laugh at you if you feel like trolling me some more

@Kvek
Sarcasm, not insult.

Basically +1 to Torpid

[Torpid]

Vanguards simply do not have the Healt necessary for their role, that's why they are useless and the melta bomb is way more useful, why would I lose all the levels, the melta bomb and even pay for that in T3 when the vans, even when supported cannot face any T3 melee squad?

Their current melee damage is fine, they simply cannot stay enough on the field to deal it, something I would like them to see doing would be Inspiration since this problem went undetected for some time, but ALL the sources for Inspiration the SM has are, for keeping it short and clear, Shit.

Libby? We already covered why

Dred, the melee dred is rarely useful for more than 1 minute when fieled, and sure the ranged dred retains the inspiration on meleee kill here but how often are you going to use a ranged dred in melee? Never.

Terminators? Also was already covered, too many sources that kill them in literally seconds, most of the time they aren't worth the investment.

They can't stay on the field if they jump opposing armies, but how about using them defensively and after dealing with a melee threat (or stalling against them for long enough to weaken them enough), jump their ranged blob. The melee dread is fine, it can serve as fantastic anti-initiation, it only becomes useless as a linebreaker after minutes.

[taco86]

Excuse me? I will happily noob stomp and laugh at you if you feel like trolling me some more

I love how this dude posting far more "flame" ridden comments is accusing me of trolling yet all that was stated is that his comment made me laugh at him and not kvek...

Since when is laughing at someones bad comparison considered trolling?

Get off your own dick (now that's trolling/flaming) See the difference here?

[Codex]

Okay, everyone just stop.

I don't care who started it, who's sarcastic and who's genuine, no more flaming/ ad hominem attacks, or else the ban hammer's coming out.

[Ace of Swords]

Vanguards simply do not have the Healt necessary for their role, that's why they are useless and the melta bomb is way more useful, why would I lose all the levels, the melta bomb and even pay for that in T3 when the vans, even when supported cannot face any T3 melee squad?

Their current melee damage is fine, they simply cannot stay enough on the field to deal it, something I would like them to see doing would be Inspiration since this problem went undetected for some time, but ALL the sources for Inspiration the SM has are, for keeping it short and clear, Shit.

Libby? We already covered why

Dred, the melee dred is rarely useful for more than 1 minute when fieled, and sure the ranged dred retains the inspiration on meleee kill here but how often are you going to use a ranged dred in melee? Never.

Terminators? Also was already covered, too many sources that kill them in literally seconds, most of the time they aren't worth the investment.

They can't stay on the field if they jump opposing armies, but how about using them defensively and after dealing with a melee threat (or stalling against them for long enough to weaken them enough), jump their ranged blob. The melee dread is fine, it can serve as fantastic anti-initiation, it only becomes useless as a linebreaker after minutes.

But that's not their role, you get ASM because you need them to jump on your enemy and tie up things, if you wanted anti melee you would have got Devastators in T1, the same goes for the dred, it usually acts as a line breaker and opener vs heavily ranged armiers, but after the first engagment is becomes useless unless you turn it into a ranged supporting platform, in the last 1000 hour of gamepaly only once I kept it melee as counter initiation, and that's because I had dev and my opponent raptors.... in a 3v3...

[Magus Magi]

As many of you would have probably guessed, I stand firmly by Mr. Riku on this.

I do not think that allowing Sternguard to keep their Tactical Marine levels would be, in any way, overpowered. Even if getting tactical marines with a flamer and then transitioning them into Sternguard becomes a popular tactic.

I contend that experienced players make a point of protecting their power supply from gen-bashing, and that the required purchase of a flamer to achieve that tactic is a naturally built in cost that (along with the effort and skill that goes into a successful gen-bash) serves to promote balance.

I also don’t think that POTENTIALLY quicker access to level 2 Sternguard is game breaking. If anyone here has the exact, mathematical difference, between level one Sternguard and level 2 Sternguard, I would love to bring that information into this discussion for everyone to analyze.

Furthermore, if the niche that Sternguard fill in the current SM army is to combat light infantry and Heroes, then I feel that their purpose should be broadened through the buffs that I initially advocated (keeping their levels, increasing the range/cooldown for Vengeance rounds). I do not think that a specialization in fighting light infantry is necessary for SM. I suspect that scouts and tactical marines are just as capable of bleeding heretics, guardsmen, guardians, termas, and horms as Sternguard are.

So, in my humble opinion, the ONLY particularly potent aspect of Hellfire Rounds is their use against hero armor. I don’t find that to be sufficient to justify leaving the Sternguard unchanged from their current state; I believe Sternguard generally lag in combat and do not project sufficient force (deal sufficient damage from sufficient range (nod to vengeance there)) in combat to justify their many costs and limitations (levels, money, loss of tactical specialization options, close combat special attack, limit of only one squad).

Let’s get the math in here on what a level 1 SG squad's dps and hp looks like compared to level 2. Then we can all have a good hard look at it.

[Magus Magi]

Also, I just want to reiterate how appreciative I am of all of you taking the time to weigh in on this conversation.

This mod has a truly exceptional community; one which clearly cares deeply about the success and quality of the mod itself.

[Dark Riku]

Panda, first of all respond to the entire post instead of picking a few things. I'm still waiting on your full reply. Like I asked you before, read everything please.

It's that simple - you can just control bleed? I can think of a few replays from the new rumble tournament winner which might show that higher upkeep is not worse than bleed.

Yes it's that simple. You are confusing higher upkeep per unit with
bigger T1 armies and possibly map control too. They are not the same.

What MU bleeds less than SM when against SM? Ok I stand corrected, if you go 3x sent and push your opponent out of the game then you will bleed less.

Do you even know the reinforcement costs of SM units? It's not because the SM only lost 2 models against 4 of yours that the SM player bled less. It actually means quite the opposite.

I will try to be courteous here. I absolutely, like categorically, disagree with SG being able to keep their levels. ... You're not just arguing for a damage buff here, but a buff to all the stats that come with levelling. So I ask again how are they underperforming in current state?

This just doesn't make sense at all. Do you mind csm of lvl2 upgrading to Tcsm? "ermergawd and they keep their level too! how OP!" No you don't and it' isn't anything bad either. No other squad in the game loses their levels after upgrading and becoming more combat efficient and I don't see why sterns/vangs should. Speaking of such, it's not a straight upgrade but more of a sidegrade as shown earlier in the thread.

@Torpid
(see last paragraph above)
And no Vangs don't need a passive slow against vehicles, that just sounds op already.

[taco86]

Let’s get the math in here on what a level 1 SG squad's dps and hp looks like compared to level 2. Then we can all have a good hard look at it.

Tac squad lvl 2: 1595
ranged dps with sarg: 62.35
melee dps with sarg: 91.465 (also has special attack)

Stern lvl 1: 1450
ranged dps: 58.32
melee dps: 76

Obviously this has to be taken with a grain of salt as specific ammo types and their corresponding dps to strong/weak targets is not included. Then again, the kraken rounds special ability for tacs is also not included.

Overall I think allot of the relative balance between these units was lost when the difference in base hp between tacs and sterns was normalized in elite compared to retail. IF there is a way to make them not de-level I think that the increased hp per level the sterns get would balance this out however that's not the case and a level 1 stern should be compared to at least a lvl 2 tac, and a lvl 2 stern should be compared to at least a lvl 3 tac. In both cases the sterns fail in hp pool, general ranged dps, and of course in melee capability (loss of special is the big one here).

So yeah, make sterns retain their tac lvl... I'd also increase the stern sarg's ranged dmg to at the very least be on par with the tac's sarg's bolter pistol.

[Magus Magi]

WTG Taco, thank you for helping to clarify the mathematical difference between baseline Sternguard and a tactical marine squad that has achieved level 2. I really appreciate your taking the time to do so. Now we can all get a general feel for what giving up a level two tactical squad means in terms of the raw numbers.

I don't know where you got your information from, but I was wondering if you might be willing to take this whole thing one step further (or if someone else wants to jump in, that's good too) and provide us all with the difference between a level one Sternguard Squad and a level two Sternguard Squad.

I get the feeling that some of the people posting on here are worried that the numerical difference would allow Sternguard to be overwhelmingly powerful as soon as they hit the field. I suspect that the difference in levels won't be that dramatic, but it would be very interesting to see.

[taco86]

the difference between a level one Sternguard Squad and a level two Sternguard Squad.

I can do this!

Lvl1
Hp:1450
Rdps: 58.32
Mdps: 76

lvl2
Hp:1667.5
Rdps: 61.24
Mdps: 83.6


lvl 2 gains 15% more hp, 5% more ranged dps, and 10% more melee dps. All level increases for sterns are the same except 3 to 4, which sees a 6% increase in ranged dps compared to 5%. In comparison tacts have the exact same level progression except they get 10% hp per level instead of 15%.

As for the numbers, I'm getting them from the limited unit info on the wikia as well as comparing change logs to retail stats. My numbers could very well be off however they look pretty good atm. Looking at some of the stats on the wikia compared to 2.2b4 would leave me to believe that many of the unit stats in the wikia are based off the 2.2 b4 changes rather than the 2.1. For example.... In 2.1 GK paladins cost 700/150, the wikia displays 650/150 just like in 2.2 b4.


Now, as an opinion... I think the loss of melee dps and a melee special should at the very least be compensated by increased hp per level which is present. However the de level royally screws this up and you're not going to see an hp advantage on the sterns until they reach lvl 4 as a lvl 3 stern squad will have the same hp as a lvl 4 tac squad. Chances are your tac squad will be reaching lvl 4 before a re level stern squad hits lvl 3 anyway so in terms of "actual" hp, I think the tacs kind of have an advantage which just feels wrong...

[Magus Magi]

Taco...you're just such a boss right now.

I'm sure your numbers are either correct, or very near to it. I don't think there has been much in the way of damage shifting for Sternguard outside of the special ammo changes. Even if there has been, I'd be willing to bet that the effect was uniform across all levels in which case the stats you've provided are still highly relevant..

You've given all of us a window into how the Sternguard change from level one to level two.

Doesn't look like changing level 2 tacs into level 2 SG would be game breaking to me. 72 more hp across 4 models for Sternguard, and a dps DECREASE of 1 (without special ammo, tac special weapons, or tac kraken rounds). And that's only IF the SM player got Tacs to level 2 before changing them into Sternguard.

[taco86]

Yeah, it's my understanding that the special ammo uses the base damage of the bolters which is about 14.5 (before leveling) and then applies special modifiers based on what kind of target they are shooting.

Now I may very well be incorrect in how special ammo damage is calculated. Clarification from some all knowing forum dweller would be great!

[Asmon]

Raw DPS vary depending on the ammo type; it is 14.58 for Hellfire Bolts and 11.67 for Dragonfire Bots, for instance. Whatever.

You are no taking into account the fact that SG's Sergeant reinforces for 83/0 while TSM's is 75/25. Consequently it is much more expensive to maintain your TSM at 4/4 and benefit from their whole health pool.

[Lulgrim]

If anyone here has the exact, mathematical difference, between level one Sternguard and level 2 Sternguard, I would love to bring that information into this discussion for everyone to analyze. it.

http://dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=el ... eran_squad ?