Dark Reapers

[Nuclear Arbitor]

Wat

does the engine take the values, plug them into a formula, and output a reinforce cost or do you take the numbers, plug them into the formula, and then put that number into the reinforce field?

[Caeltos]

I am inclined to agree , it seems unreasonable to make a unit with the intent for races like sm to use snipers which is an otherwise terrible idea vs infantry armies.

What?

It's the complete opposite. Space Marines used to deploy sniper builds vs specifically infantry oriented armies, because it provided economical damage really easy. Whilst not each shot generated much, it made pressure potential alot more easier. This still hasn't changed much, except for simply cost effiency.

Why would I get 1 - 2 snipers , which generally is a strategy one must at least prepare for by keeping the scouts upgrade free at the very beginning of the game to make work, to take care of dark reapers; a unit whose roll is so weirdly out of place that almost no one ever uses them?

Double-scouts is a pretty standard builds, and even veteran SM's can even go with triples couts. One being a shotgun is pretty reasonable, but snipers still will grant you an additional -1 model on any model you wish to fire upon. Which is particulary useful on banshees/dark reapers, so it definately has scaleability. It's a different approach to dealing with sometihng, and it most likely requires abit more finesse and playstyle, instead of head-bash & mash type of approach.

Dark Reapers sees useage, it just boils down to the players themselves if they're conservatistic or new and innovative. Most people prefer to stick with the go-to-strategies, and it'll eventually come and pester them abit with the new additions. When I play Eldar, I often employ them, and if I do play against them (In SM in particular) I do get snipers, but I try to not go with alot of shotguns for my scout useage either way, so it just meshes along together with my playstyle abit better.

Now if I read another bloody "but rangors r bettor then scouts" post, I'm going to insane.

[Asmon]

Kami has a pretty well rounded strategy with 2x snipers scouts in T2 that is wonderful vs Eldar. And those extra scouts are there since T1. It simply works.

[FiSH]

seriously dude? right after caeltos specifically said dont say stuff like "well rangers are better than scout snipers"

sigh

[Lulgrim]

Ehh are you sure you understood both messages?

[Nurland]

FiSH: Asmon said that Kami has a build that utilizes Snipr0 Scouts very well against Eldar. He did not in any way say/imply: "Rangers > Scouts" or the other way around.

[Caeltos]

Sorry, he's referring to a post which I deleted. Not to Asmons post

[Nurland]

Ahh. Well that explains. Sorry FiSH.

[Asmon]

That's what I thought too, then did not answer :>

[Lulgrim]

I would delete the reply as well so ppl don't get confused.

[Torpid]

Yes, because kami is such an amazing space marine...

Erm, these threads are getting worse. It frustrates me to no end how Caeltos keeps saying that the only reason scout snipers aren't used often is the fact that players are too nubby and boring to ever do any different. Like what the hell, it's as if you are suggesting the meta is not a relevant basis to design balance around, which is like saying 1) The playerbase has no desire to win OR 2) You have a wholly better understanding of macro than anyone in this game.

You get snipers and you are behind in tech vs eldar and now bleed more than eldar since you're losing 35 req and some power instead of 30/40 (or 0 if they have aspect) req, bearing in mind scouts have a slower ROF too.

[Caeltos]

Yes, because kami is such an amazing space marine...

Erm, these threads are getting worse. It frustrates me to no end how Caeltos keeps saying that the only reason scout snipers aren't used often is the fact that players are too nubby and boring to ever do any different. Like what the hell, it's as if you are suggesting the meta is not a relevant basis to design balance around, which is like saying 1) The playerbase has no desire to win OR 2) You have a wholly better understanding of macro than anyone in this game.

You get snipers and you are behind in tech vs eldar and now bleed more than eldar since you're losing 35 req and some power instead of 30/40 (or 0 if they have aspect) req, bearing in mind scouts have a slower ROF too.

Kami was/is a very respectable space marine player who could compete against even the best players. I don't know why you're even insulting his skill.

And quite frankly, I don't understand much rest of the post, and you disregarded my post about the post comparison about ranger vs sniper scouts. I hate unit comparison posts, they are pure comedy fodder. They are completely pointless, irrelevant and moot.

You don't HAVE TO BE behind tech when you're getting snipers. That's suggesting there's alot of power-investment in the early-game. And as well as there's so many variables and factors to take into consideration, as if you managed to achieve a succesful genbash or not, or if you managed to fend off the eldar from map control, giving you more room for power optimizations.

If you invest in commander wargear/asm/sniper/sergeants/shotgun (tac,scout,asm) and you're not doing well on the tech-race if you're not being agressive, then it's a pretty evident that something is not right in ones corresponding playstyle as well as optimization (macro related stuff), that's not neccasarily a balance fault, but a players decision being at fault.

It's also abit of a nuissance to continously bring up the cons of a unit performance, whilst not being able to provide some pros into the mixture. For ex,

Scout snipers are faster then rangers
Scout snipers deal slightly more damage then rangers
Scout snipers have more health then rangers
Scout snipers can also have a very high energy/health regeneration allowing them to maintain in stealth for longer

[Ace of Swords]

Scout snipers are faster then rangers
Scout snipers deal slightly more damage then rangers
Scout snipers have more health then rangers
Scout snipers can also have a very high energy/health regeneration allowing them to maintain in stealth for longer

Rangers 300/30 + upgrade 50/10= 350/40 they 1 shot scouts models,have a long range shotgun blast,can infiltrate themselves,can AoE infiltrate,have a bigger range,spotting included in the package.

Scouts 210 + snipers 100/35 + sargent for spotting 75/25 + infiltration 50/15= 435/75

It's an absurd price for meaningless bonuses, scouts have more healt? They still get 1 shotted by rangers and rangers have a way faster fire rate and way more utility.

Snipers do more damage? If it was an eldar mirror rangers would be one shotting models anyway from any eldar T1 unit, and I don't recall snipers beign able to 1 shot models from a squad such as warp spiders anyway but im not 100% sure of this.

Sure the HP regen synergizes very well with shotties, but it's again, useless in the sniping wars.

Forgot to add, scouts in later tiers scale worse, the damage starts beign useless and they lose their power to force off other capping squads when using sniper riflers, they are also needed to repair vehicles, meanwhile rangers can pop in and out a gate, FoF somewhere (so in reality scouts aren't faster), cap a point, throw and AoE infiltration on the eldar army and go around beign annoying.

[Codex]

Imo you're looking at the matchup wrong. If you're using snipers to counter rangers, then you're just playing into the Eldar's hands. Rangers counter scouts, that much is true. But scout snipers counter guardians, shuriken cannon, and most importantly Banshees. Weaken the banshees even a little bit and it will make breaking the line with ASM that much easier, especially if Eldar's gone for 1-1-1-1.

It seems to me ridiculous to want or expect scout snipers to counter rangers when we all know rangers counter scouts.

[Ace of Swords]

It is expected to be a fair fight, banshees under melee resistance won't drop 1/model shot, trying to move up with snipers when he has ranger is an insstant loss of 2 models, I don't see how the eldar can ever go wrong in getting rangers or how snipers stand any chance or role when rangers are on the field.

[Codex]

I don't think that's how melee resistance works. Correct me if I'm wrong, even if Banshees are in melee they will still take full ranged damage.

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Dawn_of_War_I ... resistance

I think the mechanic you're thinking of is in DOW1.

[Dark Riku]

I think Ace is referring to the received ranged dmg modifier you get for being in melee.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I'm not going to talk about if Scout Snipers are good or not against Dark Reapers.

But I'm not sure if buy an expensive upgrade to a low hp infantry armour squad against Eldar, with units like Warpspiders and Autarch is a good idea.

[Forestradio]

I'm not going to talk about if Scout Snipers are good or not against Dark Reapers.

But I'm not sure if buy an expensive upgrade to a low hp infantry armour squad against Eldar, with units like Warpspiders and Autarch is a good idea.

or infiltrated shees popping out of webways when you are trying to cap....................

[Torpid]

It's not about a direct comparison between the sniper units, nor is it about sniper scouts directly countering rangers, rather the mere presence of rangers, as Ace has already elaborated, undermines any use for sniper scouts that you may have. I really think you're feeding into the hands of the space marine if you don't get rangers and don't intend on fast teching, because rangers just control scouts so amazingly. Frankly, if they have rangers then any snipers you get are not going to be worth the initial price nor the bleed they incur in comparison to the bleed they cause.

[Bahamut]

We've only been talking only about SM "counter" to DR but what's the counter to DR if you're playing GK or chaos?

[Ace of Swords]

Chaos has barely any heavy infantry, actually, only CSM,nm,raptorshavocs and AC are heavy infantry in their rooster.

Then there is the Guo and termies who are SHI.

[Lulgrim]

Uh 6 out of 13 units means that 46% of your options are HI or SHI... Barely any?

[Dark Riku]

"Barely any" was probably not the best choice of words. What he is trying to say though is that Chaos has other options that aren't (S)HI. While SM's and GK are stuck with all (S)HI units bar their starting squad and (sub-)commanders.

[Ace of Swords]

Uh 6 out of 13 units means that 46% of your options are HI or SHI... Barely any?

When you consider that the AC,NM.raptors and Havocs should never get hit by reapers by the way they work, effectively only CSM are there to get hit by them, reapers are HI counter sure, but they don't counter jump troops,supression or other shutdown methods.

[Torpid]

Uh 6 out of 13 units means that 46% of your options are HI or SHI... Barely any?

When you consider that the AC,NM.raptors and Havocs should never get hit by reapers by the way they work, effectively only CSM are there to get hit by them, reapers are HI counter sure, but they don't counter jump troops, suppression or other shutdown methods.

But you already I assume have your nm/raptors dedicated to countering shurikens, so if you use them on that then reapers have ample opportunity to shoot you up. Also something else can bait the havoc fire then the reapers can use their suppression against them. Just saying the eldar composition does make reapers great against nearly all HI, but getting shurikens alongside reapers will leave you with a lack of AV if you don't get a BL, which then itself contradicts my first sentence...

[Ace of Swords]

The whole chaos T2 is either vehicles or normal infantry, and reapers are T2, literally every T2 choice is a counter to them, so no, none of your T1 stuff but csm should be targeted by them.

[Tex]

NM have lower range than reapers until upgrade, building raptors vs eldar is suicide, havoks can get flanked or pick wrong target and then a quick salvo from reapers will likely kill front member with gun.

wtf?

[Asmon]

Why building raptors vs Eldar would be suicide? If you get them in T1 as your core unit ok, but in T2 they're good and force retreat much more effectively than ASM.

For countering DR as Chaos, just get Dreadnoughts.

[saltychipmunk]

It might have to do with how raptors don't have knockback and are more squishy than say asm. making them much easier to kill off with a proper nade spike or banshee clear.

which means they can bleed alot.