Dark Reapers

[Orkfaeller]

Im not a Chaos player, but Raptors sound like a horrible choice against Eldar IMHO

ASM are allready in a risky spot, but they got the disruption and the second jump to evade shitty situations and to deal with unsuported Banshees on their own, in T2.

But Raptors I'm sure get mutilated.

[saltychipmunk]

Im not a Chaos player, but Raptors sound like a horrible choice against Eldar IMHO

ASM are allready in a risky spot, but they got the disruption and the second jump to evade shitty situations and to deal with unsuported Banshees on their own, in T2.

But Raptors I'm sure get mutilated.

oh yeah i forgot their jump is 10 more energy , you think that is bad , raveners jump 75 energy , talk about brutel.

[Ace of Swords]

Im not a Chaos player, but Raptors sound like a horrible choice against Eldar IMHO

ASM are allready in a risky spot, but they got the disruption and the second jump to evade shitty situations and to deal with unsuported Banshees on their own, in T2.

But Raptors I'm sure get mutilated.

Depends on situation they could do very well at the right time, jumping in first, supressing DAs/shees and then 2 tics move in, that's pretty devastating,but it's higly dependant on the opening of your opponent, i'd rather have NM and or havocs in the back vs standard 1 1 1 1 eldar builds.

[Dark Riku]

It might have to do with how raptors don't have knockback and are more squishy than say asm. making them much easier to kill off with a proper nade spike or banshee clear.

which means they can bleed alot.

They have 50HP less -.- "more squishy"
And they deal more dps than asm. 11.55 in total to be exact.

Im not a Chaos player, but Raptors sound like a horrible choice against Eldar IMHO

ASM are allready in a risky spot, but they got the disruption and the second jump to evade shitty situations and to deal with unsuported Banshees on their own, in T2.

But Raptors I'm sure get mutilated.

Except they have tics support right behind them...

[saltychipmunk]

you underestimate how important the knock back is for a jump unit's vitality.

50 hp might be little but it combined with no knock back = squisher than asm. Even if it is just nit picking .

when it comes to t1 ever little bit of hp matters as it goes much farther.

when you take into account they have to amass 10 more energy between jumps than asm , their health pool needs to hold up against more potential damage.

So yes 50 less hp , no knock back , longer delay between jumps , = substantial difference is squishiness in sustained fights.


heretics are op, 210 for a unit that pretty much does everything one could ask for in a melee unit. Anything chaos does will be unnaturally improved by sheer utility brought in by heretics

[Forestradio]

Heretics are OP?????

Now I've heard everything......................

[saltychipmunk]

yes they are , 210 for suppression in mele , commander worship synergy.

has the ability to be a near 1000 hp melee squad in t1,
can go ranged and counter ranged/blob and building,
can counter ranged suppression.

they are only 8 pop half of which can be lost for the grenade upgrade with out losing effectiveness.

and req point for req point they bleed no more or less than any other t1 light infantry squad.

their utility is so insanely over the top in t1

[Torpid]

Heretics bleed a lot and scale poorly, that's why they are so OP in t1 and also why a CL backed with triple tics is a nuisance to deal with early on, but if you make it into late t2 without losing too much map/gens you do fine.

You're right about the jump KB being very pivotal at increasing the vitality of the ASM, alongside the fact they can double jump unlike raptors.

[Bahamut]

Tic are super flexible and can fill so many roles and they're pretty good at them, but from there to OP... nah. That'd be like saying scouts are OP

[Asmon]

They have good utility but bleed like crazy. They are both the main strength and the main weakness of Chaos.

Anyway, you guys are still speaking nonsense about raptors. Knockback important for jump troops? You clearly don't realize what jump troops are for. Lemme explain it to you:

Jump troops counter ranged units and especially set-up teams.

They also provide disruption. As far as disruption goes, ASM kb and Raptors suppression (considering their second small jump that still suppress) are arguably equal, one being superior to the other depending on enemy's army composition.

But when it comes to countering set-up teams, Raptors are clearly better. Why? Because when you knockback a set-up team, it unsets it. And what happens next? The unit is able to instantly retreat or kite away.

For example, I don't retreat my shuriken because of ASM. But I will be forced to do it against Raptors, because Raptors will kill it otherwise. 100% sure. Unless I use a super trick, which is hardly doable.

And why will Raptors kill it? Because they suppress but do not knockback. That's their strenght. Without knockback, the unit remains set-up. And if you order it to move or retreat before it is unset, it will stand still long enough for the Raptors to tear it apart. So you're forced to retreat, either before the Raptors land or just as they unset the unit themselves by attacking it in melee.

Same thing with FoF. DA and Fire Dragons cannot FoF away from Raptors, while they can do so with ASM. These are Eldar examples but if you need more I can name at least 1 with every race.

Last but by no means least: Jump troops do not counter dedicated melee units. So just stop talking about how shees will cut them down. Ofc they would. Same thing with ASM. But that's what is supposed to happen.

Now worship. Jump with Raptors. Force off the shuriken or even kill it, while your army move ahead. Doomblast and back off with your Raptors, as your hero and the tics rape the shees. It's hard to do in T1, that's why you cannot buy only Raptors. In T2 it works wonderfully.

[Dark Riku]

What Asmon said. Surprisingly

[Bahamut]

i dont think stormboyz have any problems beating dedicated melee units, but that's hardcore off topic

[Black Relic]

The topic was about dark reapers, now since everyone is on raptors i dont think your very far off lol.

[Codex]

I'm happy for it to continue for a while since it's about Raptors' utility against Dark Reapers and Eldar in general (and by extension as a unit). Of course it would be good to touch on the original debate at some point.

[Bahamut]

I guess stormboyz would actually eat the crap out of DR but then again, why DR against orkz? maybe only to counter nobs but by that time eldars could simply get a fire prism and keep nobz on the ground

Definitely you need to put too much pressure on your jump troops, you either jump the shuriken platform or the reapers, and no matter which one you jump eldars got banshee support waiting. I've always thought getting ASM against eldars was a bad idea, now even more

And snipers against DR.. well, lets say they're actually good against DR and they perform wonders at countering them, only SM got that option, chaos and GK got what? nade launchers maybe?

[Caeltos]

GK has generally higher sustainability and damage mitigation compared to SM/Chaos

Chaos has abit more wider range of infantry oriented units that can deal with them, or misc. abilities or pressure potential through their T2 options.

[Dark Riku]

And snipers against DR.. well, lets say they're actually good against DR and they perform wonders at countering them, only SM got that option, chaos and GK got what? nade launchers maybe?

Assuming snipers aren't a waste of resources...

Chaos got:

Blood letters (power melee/jump)
Raptors (jump with suppression and possibly power melee on AC)
Tzeench csm (dmg type)
Khorne csm (power melee)
Blood crusher (cheaper walker)

To a lesser extent:

Melee heretics
Noise marines (disable)

Not including walkers/T3.

[David-CZ]

Just wondering, why is their damage type plasma again? I thought they are supposed to shoot small missiles in bolter-like fashion. Is this purely because of balance?

[Orkfaeller]

In TableTop they got Armour Piercing 3 I believe, meaning it just ignores the 3+ Armour Save Space Marines have.
So just givinb them Plasma Damage here I guess isnt completly off.

[Asmon]

It's because Eldar need plasma damage.

[Kvek]

It's because Eldar need plasma damage.

no they dont.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

in tt reapers have krak and plasma missiles. it changed a little bit between 4th and 6th but the premise is still the same. doesn't really make a huge difference to elite though. the only other option to put in plasma damage would be a starcannon upgrade on plats but that wouldn't help against claw terminators, even if it would be cool, and we lack a model although it would be very easy to make.

[Tex]

Asmon, are you seriously telling me that you are "afraid" of raptors as an eldar player?

I saw something in your wall of text to the tune of "it works wonderfully" and I just about laughed my iced cappuccino out of my nose. Raptors in t1 work... ok. Raptors in t2 DO NOT work wonderfully. Raptors in t3 FINALLY WORK.

Anyway back on topic now, I have been doing a bunch of eldar games and I will be posting them within a week or so. There is so much reaper/gate action its going to make Riku's head explode haha. We can all judge together whether this is fair or not.

[Asmon]

I ain't afraid of anything bro.

[Tex]

you will be in the tourney fool! BAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[saltychipmunk]

I can see raptors being effective if , the banshees are suspiciously absent for at least stopping the mass ranged fire power of a guardian blob or plat , but even one counter melee unit + a nade spike on retreat can be a very bad day for asm let alone raptors,

and yes knock back is better than suppression when in direct engagements because it is flexible enough to be used to atleast soft counter light melee squads that normally counter asm. That is as long as you have ranged support from at least part of your army.

i will admit the suppression effect is better for kiting ranged spams.


and no eldar does not need ranged plasma damage,

[Panda]

It's because Eldar need plasma damage.

no they dont.

and no eldar does not need ranged plasma damage

You two are basically disagreeing with the principle which led to their implementation. Whether Dark Reapers are in a good moment or not (looking forward to those replays Tex), the fact remains that Eldar had a tough time against SHI in retail. I'm not sure if that's even debatable.

[Kvek]

It's because Eldar need plasma damage.

no they dont.

and no eldar does not need ranged plasma damage

You two are basically disagreeing with the principle which led to their implementation. Whether Dark Reapers are in a good moment or not (looking forward to those replays Tex), the fact remains that Eldar had a tough time against SHI in retail. I'm not sure if that's even debatable.

yh, way too hard time...
ogryns countered, and termies ? haha....

[Ace of Swords]

It's because Eldar need plasma damage.

no they dont.

and no eldar does not need ranged plasma damage

You two are basically disagreeing with the principle which led to their implementation. Whether Dark Reapers are in a good moment or not (looking forward to those replays Tex), the fact remains that Eldar had a tough time against SHI in retail. I'm not sure if that's even debatable.

but that was never the case, fire prisms were always a very hard counter to termies despite costing way less, and IF the SM was so much in advantage tech wise to get termies and the eldar had no way to get counters out I don't see why yet again, the SM needs to be punished for that.

[Caeltos]

I super strongly disagree.