Dark Reapers

[saltychipmunk]

If eldar really needed ranged plasma damage , then the dark reapers would be a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more popular unit than they are now instead of just a niche unit.

Also , I never said dark Reapers are bad. In fact they are a perfectly competent unit for what they do if a bit expensive. My main argument against them was that they were overspecialized without upgrades and in the end were usually not chosen in favor of more tactically flexible units.

Most other races get their plasma damage as upgrades to existing units which means no extra pop invested. Dark reapers are a whole additional unit .

the ranged plasma damage on dark reapers really only shines in areas in which units like banshees or the seer council are too fragile to stay in combat with , which normally would be against super late end game units such as the terminators or nobs.

but in t2 there really isn't any heavy infantry or super heavy infantry unit that NEEDS a unit like dark reapers to specifically deal with them.

nothing makes me think "hmmm dark reapers sure would be the most ideal unit to counter this".

And again dark reapers themselves are not exactly a durable unit.


of course I always found the implementation of the dark reapers as slightly odd to begin with especially since fire dragons are implemented as an eldar melta weapon squad.


fire dragons are actually the t2 infantry unit I seem to use the most now for some reason.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

fire prisms are terrible against termies.

[saltychipmunk]

if you do a crap job at kiting they are , but the same can be said for any battle tank. prisms have a stupidly long range.

[Ace of Swords]

fire prisms are terrible against termies.

They do plasma damage for a reason, after a few shots of focused blast termies will need to retreat, and if you have 2 prims they will start sniping termies left and right, with a high chance of killing them before they can get back to base while also providing amazing anti-T3, 2 of them will make short work of preds,any setup team,sterns or a LR.

[Dark Riku]

fire prisms are terrible against termies.

if you do a crap job at kiting they are , but the same can be said for any battle tank. prisms have a stupidly long range.

[Codex]

In a 1v1 situation, Fire Prisms hard counter terminators. But that is because in a 1v1 situation a Fire Prism counters just about everything if it can stay out of engagement range, and this is doubly true if something is scouting for the Fire Prism.

With enough of the right support (e.g. a melta bomb) the Fire Prism is food to even normal Terminator power fist attacks.

[Bahamut]

With enough of the right support (e.g. a melta bomb) the Fire Prism is food to even normal Terminator power fist attacks.

like every other tank except a baneblade or a LR

[Caeltos]

Fire Prism has considerably less health however, along with other variables.

[Asmon]

They do plasma cannon damage for a reason...

FIFY.

Fireprims and Predators deal almost the same damage to SHI, except a Predator will never miss them. And melta + teleport (without a melee charge) means dead Fireprism but still alive Predator.

Why are we not talking about DR anymore?

[saltychipmunk]

They do plasma cannon damage for a reason...

FIFY.

Fireprims and Predators deal almost the same damage to SHI, except a Predator will never miss them. And melta + teleport (without a melee charge) means dead Fireprism but still alive Predator.

so asm and terminators to kill prism? ok 3 prisms to chain murder your termis / asm .
And the cycle of theory crafting continues yay.

Why are we not talking about DR anymore?

Is there anything else to say about them that hasn't been said? i do believe we have run the usual gambit with them .

we got:
Dr are too expensive.
Dr are too cheap
Dr upgrades are too expensive
Dr are too fragile
eldar needed plasma damage so logically dr need to exist
Dr seem to only be neccisary vs late game units .. despite cost as much if not more then said units.
Dr have a specific roll that they fill
Dr don't have much utility for their initial power cost .

etc sounds like we covered a healthy spectrum

[Nuclear Arbitor]

dr have a cheap initial cost and high cost over time due to bleed and upgrades; they're not cheap and expensive.

[Tex]

wtf? Why would you buy the upgrades unless you are ahead. You do realize you get a huge chunk of plasma dps from buying a very cheap squad right? Hell, just buy 2 of them. After the patch it will only cost you 800-60 for a wall of 8 plasma guns.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

maybe you don't? that just makes them less expensive. they still bleed all over.

[Asmon]

Fireprims and Predators deal almost the same damage to SHI, except a Predator will never miss them. And melta + teleport (without a melee charge) means dead Fireprism but still alive Predator.

so asm and terminators to kill prism? ok 3 prisms to chain murder your termis / asm .
And the cycle of theory crafting continues yay.

Dude wtf is going on with you? Do you even understand the whole concept of logic?

[Torpid]

No, he obviously doesn't, along with a far too large bunch of people who seem to think any sort of reasoning that doesn't involve inferring empirical evidence is useless.

[sk4zi]

can´t the reapers not be t1 without plasma and an upgrade for plasma in T2 (or even T3) ...
this would solve the problem with upkeep/getting a new squad in t2.
so an eldar could purchase them in T1 instead of a second guardians and then upgrade them in T2 for the scaling
or just to have it fluffwise having the plasma in T1 but with low dmg ...
then the would remain high specialists just with potential for their dedicated role in further tiers

if eldar really needs that plasma dmg in t3 it can even be an upgrade in T3 for plasma and in T2 for range and/or for HI (reinforced armor e.g.) or so.

that would be almost like they were in DOW1
(Edit: but there they were really strong)

[saltychipmunk]

Fireprims and Predators deal almost the same damage to SHI, except a Predator will never miss them. And melta + teleport (without a melee charge) means dead Fireprism but still alive Predator.

so asm and terminators to kill prism? ok 3 prisms to chain murder your termis / asm .
And the cycle of theory crafting continues yay.

Dude wtf is going on with you? Do you even understand the whole concept of logic?

you are adding extra units to the equation , melta + teleport are on two completely separate units , and forgive me for saying this but... yeah melta + teleport and battle tank and it will die, even non upgraded preds

the original argument was that prisms can deal with terminators , to which you argued that a melta + a teleport would easily bring them down. and then for some reason predators snuck into the discussion.

eldar dont invest heavy into t2 if they are going for t3 prism spams , so it is a possibility to get that extra prism or two out long before terminators would hit the field. and while predators are more durable than prizm , prisms have longer ranges, and all it really takes is to amass 2 - 3 of them to start are very very dangerous snow ball effect.

ill admit my comment of three prisms was a bit trolly but it was to point out the absurdity of saying prisms aren't an effective unit by adding a bunch of other units to the equation that are such over kill for them or bare only a marginally similar roll.

of course prisms die to tele and melta combos, that combo alone is what makes most battle tanks a massive liability as once you have it , it is effectively an i win button vs nonupgraded battle tanks.

It is why the eldar haywire grenades was nerfed a while ago. because units as dinky as banshees could face roll t3 battle tanks with no effort at all.

[Torpid]

I don't think you have a very good understanding of the SM vs Eldar MU.

[Codex]

It is why the eldar haywire grenades was nerfed a while ago. because units as dinky as banshees could face roll t3 battle tanks with no effort at all.

Well, no, no it wasn't. It was because Haywire stun+ Wraithguard trololol'd just about any vehicle short of a superunit. This combo could 2-3 shot most tanks/transports, and take a walker to below half hp.

To be fair, I understand why you're making this argument, but the Fire Prism was designed to be mobile weapons platform with little to no survivability. Simply put, if it is caught then you're fucked.

but it was to point out the absurdity of saying prisms aren't an effective unit by adding a bunch of other units to the equation that are such over kill for them or bare only a marginally similar roll.

I don't think Asmon was arguing that Prisms aren't an effective unit. Imo it's one of the most powerful units in the game by design alone (superior range, superior speed, excellent damage, ability to change fire type for the situation, access to knockback...)

Regardless, its fragility is a big downside and as such I rarely ever have my FP near the front lines at all, preferring to scout with rangers ahead so I can see these melta+ TPs coming in.

No, he obviously doesn't, along with a far too large bunch of people who seem to think any sort of reasoning that doesn't involve inferring empirical evidence is useless.

Alright Torpid. I've asked nicely in other threads and not been directed at you so far, but please keep the "hurrdurr you're too dumb for logic" lines to a minimum.

[Cyris]

can´t the reapers not be t1 without plasma and an upgrade for plasma in T2 (or even T3) ...
this would solve the problem with upkeep/getting a new squad in t2.

I'd actually really like to see something like this! I always felt Eldar T2 just had too many units. Moving these guys to T1 would also open up more build variety too, which is always good in my book.

[Torpid]

Alright Torpid. I've asked nicely in other threads and not been directed at you so far, but please keep the "hurrdurr you're too dumb for logic" lines to a minimum.

I appreciate this, however I just find it baffling, to say the least, that about 40% of the people on this forum seem to think that theory crafting in any shape or form is just some magical form of rhetoric with no purpose at all. Thus, the only way to accurately prompt balance discussion is to post endless numbers of replays so we can all gawp at our screens watching Toilailee's OP IG stomp Juhwann's UP chaos. This assumption is extremely frustrating because it assumes that the people who are theorycrafting are putting no thought into it at all/ are inept at the game/ are bias, which frankly isn't the point of TC in the first place.

[Torpid]

can´t the reapers not be t1 without plasma and an upgrade for plasma in T2 (or even T3) ...
this would solve the problem with upkeep/getting a new squad in t2.

I'd actually really like to see something like this! I always felt Eldar T2 just had too many units. Moving these guys to T1 would also open up more build variety too, which is always good in my book.

Eh, but what would they do that would make them better than guardians, because guardians are pretty damn amazing for their price at the moment since they are anti-ranged (with shields), anti-melee (with nades) and fantastic cappers (with FoF). Just high damage, HI armour, would be interesting to say the least.

[Codex]

I appreciate this, however I just find it baffling, to say the least, that about 40% of the people on this forum seem to think that theory crafting in any shape or form is just some magical form of rhetoric with no purpose at all. Thus, the only way to accurately prompt balance discussion is to post endless numbers of replays so we can all gawp at our screens watching Toilailee's OP IG stomp Juhwann's UP chaos. This assumption is extremely frustrating because it assumes that the people who are theorycrafting are putting no thought into it at all/ are inept at the game/ are bias, which frankly isn't the point of TC in the first place.

See you could have just posted that; it's a good post and yes theorycrafting does serve a purpose. It's just that the word holds pretty negative connotations in the gaming community in general.

[SirSid]

Only a Dota player would think that theorycrafting has anything at all atached to it that is a negative.

Stop playing DOTA codex before we have to have a intervention for u. I can't stand sitting on a couch and having other people share thare .. ( gulp ) feeling.

[KanKrusha]

For dark reapers in tier one, in order to differentiate them from guardians they could start armed with flamers (not fluffy but practical) upgrade able in tier two to reaper launchers

(I have been working on a similar idea for storm guardians)

They don't have fleet and they dont have infiltrate so there is not the inherent OPness of high speed or infiltrated flamers. Plus with short range, low speed and no melee resistance they would be very vulnerable to melee.

Could be an issue with gates but given the time it takes to accumate enough red for 2 web way gates it should be okay

[Codex]

Only a Dota player would think that theorycrafting has anything at all atached to it that is a negative.

Stop playing DOTA codex before we have to have a intervention for u. I can't stand sitting on a couch and having other people share thare .. ( gulp ) feeling.

Please, Sid, don't make it personal :'(

[SirSid]

Hahaha have to get my licks in when i have a change ... i learnt that from u infact =

If u like theorycrafting come play path of exile it's free and awsome.

http://www.pathofexile.com/

[Nuclear Arbitor]

Hahaha have to get my licks in when i have a change ... i learnt that from u infact =

If u like theorycrafting come play path of exile it's free and awsome.

http://www.pathofexile.com/

what's your name? i want some one to party with. my ranger is IHateNaming

[SirSid]

Add SirSid to your friends list

That should get me on all my character

I would love to play with yha track me down in game or in steam to get some pew pew in. I got a few Map running character on standard and 1 on hardcore.

I will be re rolling new toons when Domination and Nemesis launch . I Run in as many races as i can always looking for race partners. But i miss many of them dew to work .. and DOW time haha. O and some other buds of mine do orginized 3v3 PvP matches bet will be alot more when the launch comes to with all the new PvP modes .

[sk4zi]

can´t the reapers not be t1 without plasma and an upgrade for plasma in T2 (or even T3) ...
this would solve the problem with upkeep/getting a new squad in t2.

I'd actually really like to see something like this! I always felt Eldar T2 just had too many units. Moving these guys to T1 would also open up more build variety too, which is always good in my book.

Eh, but what would they do that would make them better than guardians, because guardians are pretty damn amazing for their price at the moment since they are anti-ranged (with shields), anti-melee (with nades) and fantastic cappers (with FoF). Just high damage, HI armour, would be interesting to say the least.

i think the best what they would do, is having a possibility to become stronger in the further game or even having that plasma damage at a later point in the game

its not that they should fulfill any new role in T1 in my opinion, just to have 1 DR + 1 Guards in t1 instead of 2 guards. they could be the genbashers for eldar, like cyris wrote thou
ofc then you have just one nade and one shield, but you dont need a 3rd squad in t2
also its adding a HI unit to your T1
they should have a slightly higher base damage as guardians then to settle the lag of grenades.

keep in mind that guardians also have a power cost if you want that nade (equip at all)