CSM EW AC. Idea, reasons and video inside.

[Dark Riku]

make the AC on raptors do 10 less dmg

Why? The % dps increase on base squad member damage is pretty much the same for ASM and Raptor squad leaders, and they both get power weapons. The higher dps and lower hp seem pretty intrinsic for keeping the two units different imo.

First of all, what the hell does leveling has to do with this? °_0

Second because the AC does 10 more DPS than the asm sarge and it was fine before because he was lacking a default ability. Which he now gets. So 33% more dps for
the same amount of health (400) and a disruption ability doesn't seem fair at all.


Knockbacks in melee; source: DoW2 Wiki

The "Melee Skill" statistic (listed on each unit's main stat page on this wiki) is a statistic that is only used in melee combat. When making a melee attack, the attacker's melee skill is compared to the target's, and the difference is used in calculating the chance that a special attack will be performed. The base chance is 5% (which will be the case for equally skilled combatants).

When an attack is made, if the attacker's melee skill is higher than the defender, the chance of a special attack is (5% + x%). Thus, if an Assault Marine (Melee Skill 70) were to attack an Eldar Guardian (Melee Skill 50), he would have a (5% + 20%) = 25% chance of performing a special attack.

If the attacker has a lower melee skill, the difference is used as a negative modifier that is further multiplied by 5 (5% - 5x%). Effectively, having a Melee Skill of even 1 point lower than the defender means there is no chance of making special attacks at all (5% - 5% = 0%). Having a negative final percentage (below 0%) has no effect.

[Codex]

Yeah... I have no idea where you got your information from wa1243agh, but if what you said was true then it would be possible for a level 1 banshee to proc a special on a level 2 asm, which is not possible.

[Asmon]

If I am in control of those Banshees it becomes possible.




Yes, indeed.

[Panda]

First of all, what the hell does leveling has to do with this? °_0

Nothing..?

Second because the AC does 10 more DPS than the asm sarge and it was fine before because he was lacking a default ability. Which he now gets. So 33% more dps for
the same amount of health (400) and a disruption ability doesn't seem fair at all.

Aren't we not meant to be comparing units, since both perform different functions for different races? Hence the units' costs differ? By this logic I'm not happy that CSM AC costs the same as tac sarge but does less, I don't think it's fair but if it doesn't change a) they are different units with different functions, so shouldn't be compared anyway and b) so what? Both races have some things that they are better at than each other. It be part of life

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

The CSM AC don't need to do more melee damage.

I actually don't know As I've mentioned the cases where I buy AC before Marks are very limited, and the cases where I'll willingly engage in melee with them is even more limited as a result. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

I already said this on this thread, but buffing the ranged damage and giving 70 MS to AC would make the CSM too similar to Sargent Tactical Marines and it's simply the easiest solution. I would like (as I said before) make the EW AC CSM different, taking advantage of their high melee, with a different role instead of only pew pew pew things.

The problem is find to AC without mark and adequate role:
- Without making them too much powerful in melee combat, because as Dark Riku has kindly said throughout this thread several times, is a ranged squad. Not mention that Chaos don't lack of lots of dedicated melee squads.

- You can't increase too much its ranged damage, because it could compete with the MoT.

- You can't give them a passive increased damage done buff or a reduced damage taken buff if the AC is alive, because the sinergy with any kind of workshipp.

It would be interesting know of Caeltos' opinion about this topic.

[Torpid]

First of all, what the hell does leveling has to do with this? °_0

Nothing..?

Second because the AC does 10 more DPS than the asm sarge and it was fine before because he was lacking a default ability. Which he now gets. So 33% more dps for
the same amount of health (400) and a disruption ability doesn't seem fair at all.

Aren't we not meant to be comparing units, since both perform different functions for different races? Hence the units' costs differ? By this logic I'm not happy that CSM AC costs the same as tac sarge but does less, I don't think it's fair but if it doesn't change a) they are different units with different functions, so shouldn't be compared anyway and b) so what? Both races have some things that they are better at than each other. It be part of life

That argument isn't going anywhere. You can't just say "oh you can't compare races". It's true when comparing different races you have to take into account the different ways in which the races function; there's a reason ogryns are the only t2 melee unit with SHI and a reason why ravs are so weak compared to asm. When we compare such units we acknowledge those reasons.

Ultimately, raptors are not meant to be a disruption unit in my opinion, they serve more as anti-ranged than they do anti-melee, which is actually more the job of asm. Remember ASM are the only melee unit for SM and despite them sucking cost-efficiency-wise vs dedicated melee in t1, they actually do well in t2 with merciless strike and can solo shees provided they land both abilities, raptors can't, however with their AC they can insta-gib set-up teams quite easily.

Ok so with that acknowledged we can now decipher the roles of both units. Raptors need more dps so they can punish ranged units, which in turn synergises with their suppression. ASM need less dps but more disruption because disriptuon is stronger vs melee and they are more accustomed to holding their own against melee (raptors get tics to aid them with that job, sm get scouts, which themselves aren't melee, so they need to be able to control the melee). All that said then, it seems unfair that the raptor AC now has a disruptive ability (how it strong it actually is I don't know as I haven't ever really used the daemon maul before now anyway), while having the same hp as the asm sarge (which is the other trait asm have which justifies them having less damage than raptors) AND siginiicantly more damage than him. The whole premise of the unit seems to be out of place in my opinion, raptors already have that extra damage AND health so the disruption seems rather thrown on and unnecessary.

1) Don't add the new disruption ability.

Or

2) Decrease the HP of the raptor AC to 350 instead of 400 (or actually, just to be the same as the other raptor models).

[Asmon]

Who said Raptors AC need a new disruption ability? Aren't you confused with CSM's?

[Dark Riku]

First of all, what the hell does leveling has to do with this? °_0

Nothing..?

Then why did you bring it up in your last post? -.-

Then the AC for CSM definitely doesn't do "less" than the sarge does for tacs.
They both have their different traits. +1 to what Torpid said.

Who said Raptors AC need a new disruption ability? Aren't you confused with CSM's?

The raptor AC is getting the Maul ability by default in the new patch.
Maul is getting removed.

[Forestradio]

As I understand it, Chaos units do more damage than their SM counterparts, but Chaos cannot buff that damage nearly as well as SM (battlecry, combat stimulants, melee inspiration).

Raptors do more damage than ASM. 40 power melee and 90 normal melee vs 30 power melee and around 79 normal melee

Chaos units are also usually a little more fragile than their SM counterparts.

Raptors have less health than ASM. 1450 hp vs 1600 hp

However, Raptors until T3 are useless vs vehicles, and don't disrupt melee units nearly as well.

So why are we arguing about them anyways? Both units are fine atm.

The regular CSM squad AC could use a few tweaks imo. Without a mark, he is borderline useless, and is rarely purchased before a mark is. That is the current meta.
Melee skill buff would be fine, I mean it's not like it makes him into some kind of unstoppable melee fighter.

[Dark Riku]

The only one that is buffing SM's is the FC with his battlecry and FTE. The other 2 can't do that. Melee inspiration? On the dread and libby ~~ ? Combat stimulants is a T2 upgrade to mainly counter suppression and only affects 1 squad.

Right, Chaos counterparts are usually a little bit more fragile. But not in the case of the raptor AC, he has 400HP like the asm sarge and does 33% more dps.
Raptors suppress on landing which is better vs setupteams and ranged units.
And now he will get a melee sniping ability. 150dmg on a single entity + knockback surrounding units is quite the disruption don't you think?

[Forestradio]

So why are we arguing about them anyways? Both units are fine atm.

[Torpid]

I imagine the raptor's ability being very strong against shees due to their fragile exarch and formation when charging in. Not to mention the inspiration buffs that sm can get really are offset by the worship buffs that chaos can get. We are arguing about something that hasn't yet been implemented with the hopes that it won't be implemented in the way we're thinking because it seems a bit too good. Not sure if I would get bloodletters as often now if the raptor AC has that ability, it's a big buff.

I also think we've all come to a general consensus that the default csm AC is rather subpar, not really sure if there is anything left to discuss regarding that.

[Nurland]

With the Raptor AC having that ability by default I would be inclined to say he needs a cost increase.

[Raffa]

Nice to see no Chaos players commenting here, hence no opposition to this view.

With the Raptor AC having that ability by default I would be inclined to say he needs a cost increase.

I disagree

Regardless of what others say, it is my belief that he underperforms significantly (not quite to the level of CSM AC, but not far off), yet he is bought consistently because Raptors are dead meat in T2 without him.

Why should Raptors' role be exclusively suppressing ranged units? Why are they not entitled to extra utility like all other jump-squad leaders give to their units? They underperform in T2 in the current beta. That is a fact.

You are entitled to believe this will make him overperform. However as one of the people who has actually bothered to try to make the Maul work and use the ability, I do not think this will happen. The least you can do is experiment with him and demolishing strike before reaching pre-emptive judgments about something you have rarely/ever seen.

**Plz stop tempting me back into debates**

[Nurland]

Uhhh... I main Chaos but I still think that Raptor AC might now offer a bit too much "bang for the buck" though this is beta so...

[Raffa]

And you're honestly telling me you don't think Raptors underperform in T2?

For shits and giggles this is why, in my most humblest of opinions, Raptor AC deserves the demolishing strike ability:

1) No T2 av. Raptors do not threaten or deter vehicles on any level. "But Waffa, they already do high damage and tie up units, isn't this fair?" Well every other jump infantry squad can do so in T2 except raveners because, well they're raveners and they have been disappearing ever since people found out the nid ranged blob can actually be countered in Elite. This contributes to Raptors being one-dimensional.
2) No adaptability. "But Waffa, can't their suppressing jump be used in many situations?" Well they provide 0 utility besides this. Realistically they have one jump per engagement and that is used to tie up/hurt ranged units, or occasionally to slow a charging melee unit if you've upgraded your HB to autocannon, but I don't think many use them for this. Why should Raptors alone not be able to have extra utility like every other jump unit does? How the hell can you justify 90/25 for an extra model with a nice power weapon, who gives no perk or other bonus to the squad?
3) Raptors consistently underperform. "But Waffa, I think they're fine for their cost." They have no escape mechanism because of the high energy jump, no way to turn the tables. Oh and every other jump unit bought in T1 can find a way to disrupt and further contribute to the fighting. This unit is key in any Chaos army that buys them (not to the extent of ASM, but still key) and needs to just give more for 490/65+upkeep. Sure they have their uses (eg trolling the map with AC heretics) and are fine in T1, but not in T2.

EDIT: the longass explanation

[Nurland]

Currently I think they are underperforming slightly in t2 (beta 4). I generally prefer Swagletters. But with the Beta 5 buff the AC has a relatively high dps and an ability. That might justify a slight cost increase.

[Asmon]

Raptors killed my Wraithlord in duel. Tell them Tex =)

[sk4zi]

i actually agree with the change.

its about the energy cost (just like waffa sayed) they have more energy cost to jump and cant perform their skill not that often like asm can.

@Topic.

i also dont think that they need the charge, but i actually would also like to see more Mark of the undevined Chaos play.

but imho this is also a mark. (in some way) i.k. that in TT this is also like if you give them nothing its undevined, but imho the chosen squad mentioned elsewhere is the right choice here.
they can have this charge ability (or passive whatever) then.
the the AC might be to weak for his price, but loosing a cool ability (charge thing) by upgradeing csm for 30 power would be odd. especially for KCSM

@KCSM - gone discussion
i think its not cheap.
they still cost what they cost which is a lot (610/70)
you cant say its just the upgrade because you loose the CSM (range dmg) to get the KCSM

[Forestradio]

Raptors killed my Wraithlord in duel. Tell them Tex =)

My FC with chainsword and stormshield once killed a wraithlord in a duel...............

[Orkfaeller]

Pfff, Suppressed Sluggas once SHOT my Dreadnought.

[Ace of Swords]

1) No T2 av. Raptors do not threaten or deter vehicles on any level. "But Waffa, they already do high damage and tie up units, isn't this fair?" Well every other jump infantry squad can do so in T2 except raveners because, well they're raveners and they have been disappearing ever since people found out the nid ranged blob can actually be countered in Elite. This contributes to Raptors being one-dimensional.

Raptor jump is very powerful, the fact that it supresses for so long ranged blobs makes 2 or even 3 melee tics viable even when there is no melee from the enemy, raptors aren't meant to distrupt, that's tics/nm job, they are meant to shutdown ranged blobs and they aren't the spearhead like ASM, they are meant to advance with your tics/hero almost at the exact same time.

2) No adaptability. "But Waffa, can't their suppressing jump be used in many situations?" Well they provide 0 utility besides this. Realistically they have one jump per engagement and that is used to tie up/hurt ranged units, or occasionally to slow a charging melee unit if you've upgraded your HB to autocannon, but I don't think many use them for this. Why should Raptors alone not be able to have extra utility like every other jump unit does? How the hell can you justify 90/25 for an extra model with a nice power weapon, who gives no perk or other bonus to the squad?

With CL they have an undefined number of jumps when using the harness of rage,the sorc can support them with the sword of flame and PC can come in further supressing with his T1 armor or healing with the mucus so they synergize very well with heroes.
Why pay for that model? Because it changes the outcome of engagments, chaos was always more cheaper than SM but once invested in, way better, As things stands now, Raptors are going to cost less and be better even without support.

3) Raptors consistently underperform. "But Waffa, I think they're fine for their cost." They have no escape mechanism because of the high energy jump, no way to turn the tables. Oh and every other jump unit bought in T1 can find a way to disrupt and further contribute to the fighting. This unit is key in any Chaos army that buys them (not to the extent of ASM, but still key) and needs to just give more for 490/65+upkeep. Sure they have their uses (eg trolling the map with AC heretics) and are fine in T1, but not in T2.

They never underperfom, they are kind of fragile when you put them against banshees for sure, but overall they are your way to let the tics swarm in almost undamaged, they don't need a jump out because a single doomblast is enough to cover them and again, they weren't meant to distrupt, you have melee/nade launchers tics or NM to do so, they were meant to control, they kind of have a symbiotic link with tics, they support each other and when they do they are pretty much unstoppable.

Beside they could get meltas in T2 but that's not necessary, PMs, Lascannon,Tdred, are good enough to take care of slow walkers and low hp transports, in T3 when tanks start becoming a problem you can switch to meltas and have and amazing tank counter with a melta bomb to slow them down and meltas to quickly finish it off, I would say raptors are more than fine.

[Dark Riku]

^What Ace said.

[Raffa]

Raptor jump is very powerful, the fact that it supresses for so long ranged blobs makes 2 or even 3 melee tics viable even when there is no melee from the enemy, raptors aren't meant to distrupt, that's tics/nm job, they are meant to shutdown ranged blobs and they aren't the spearhead like ASM, they are meant to advance with your tics/hero almost at the exact same time.

Hate to break it to you buddy but 2 or 3 melee tics is viable all the time (assuming we're talking 1v1), possibly except vs IG with 2+ sents - it's my standard BO, come play sometime and I'll show you...You don't need Raptors to make multiple melee tics work. So Raptors' purpose is just to shutdown enemy ranged blobs? Unless your opponent is blobbing stupidly you shouldn't suppress more than 2 squads, and again the key point is:

Why should raptors not have more utility besides locking down/hurting ranged units like every other jump unit does? Sorry SM fanboys you get more hp Chaos gets more dps here, and you get knockback which overall is more useful. Why doesn't Chaos get a perk? Sorry for comparing, but that's the logic by which you guys are justifying AC not having daemonic fury ability. It's just a no-brainer that he should for me.

With CL they have an undefined number of jumps when using the harness of rage,the sorc can support them with the sword of flame and PC can come in further supressing with his T1 armor or healing with the mucus so they synergize very well with heroes.
Why pay for that model? Because it changes the outcome of engagments, chaos was always more cheaper than SM but once invested in, way better, As things stands now, Raptors are going to cost less and be better even without support.

Dude be honest. How many times have you seen Raptors jump extra as a direct result of harness of rage? I have seen it a handful of times, all by accident I main Chaos Lord man. OK I give you the sword of flame, but unless your opponent is a retarded monkey or you are in 2v2/3v3 your PC should not be able to heal them in a brawl. Don't see how fetid armour synergises with them either...plus I disagree that they are better without support but both units should always be supported and I won't be able to convince you anyway.

They never underperfom, they are kind of fragile when you put them against banshees for sure, but overall they are your way to let the tics swarm in almost undamaged, they don't need a jump out because a single doomblast is enough to cover them and again, they weren't meant to distrupt, you have melee/nade launchers tics or NM to do so, they were meant to control, they kind of have a symbiotic link with tics, they support each other and when they do they are pretty much unstoppable.

Dude. Heretic doomblast covers escape just like shotguns do for SM, aiming wats dat for orks, kinetic pulse etc that's stating the obvious. Every race has means to cover escape, and Chaos has to bleed for it. We're gonna have to define disruption, because I define disruption as anything that stops a unit performing its function. So suppression, knockback, stun and nm shutdown all count as disruption for me.

If anyone disagrees plz answer the underlines question

I didn't intend on coming out of my cave here - but this is an issue I feel weely, weely stronk about.

[Ace of Swords]

why should raptors not have more utility besides locking down/hurting ranged units like every other jump unit does?

Because all the utility is already covered by tics, for SM sending scouts to do the same job as tics means suiciding scouts feeding XP to your opponent and bleeding yourself alot or even losing the squad and that's why ASM are the spearhead.

Dude be honest. How many times have you seen Raptors jump extra as a direct result of harness of rage? I have seen once maybe twice and I main Chaos Lord man. OK I give you the sword of flame, but unless your opponent is a retarded monkey or you are in 2v2/3v3 your PC should not be able to heal them in a brawl. Don't see how fetid armour synergises with them either...

If you jump 2 times you already achieve what ASM can do for less the cost still, considering how good the harness is by itself on the cl,and the pc is able to brawl in thanks to the raptors themselves, remember that there are also tics in the mix.

Dude. Heretic doomblast covers escape just like shotguns do for SM, aiming wats dat for orks, kinetic pulse etc that's stating the obvious. Every race has means to cover escape, and Chaos has to bleed for it. We're gonna have to define disruption, because I define disruption as anything that stops a unit performing its function. So suppression, knockback, stun and nm shutdown all count as disruption for me.

Wrong, doomblast is baseline, everything else requires investment, simple as that also doomblast not only performs as a mean to escape but it also does alot of damage to your opponent, the bleed you get is nothing compared to the bleed you cause. Disruption depends on the unit affected by it, but tics provide all you need for it in offense, scouts don't, the shotgun blast is meant as a defensive counter and most of the time getting shotguns is more a risk than a reward as far as their combat power goes, you also can do it only once in comparison of doomblast.

[Raffa]

I could write another wall of text, but I'm not going to convince you SM boys even if I'm right haha

Thankfully Raptor AC is getting daemonic fury as default so I'm gonna go back into hiding again. Laters.

[Kvek]

I could write another wall of text, but I'm not going to convince you SM boys even if I'm right haha

I understand, you are not going to wirte another wall of text cus you know Ace is right.

[Raffa]

I understand, you are not going to wirte another wall of text cus you know Ace is right.

1) I pm'd it my next wall to him not that it matters

2) Even if me and Ace won't agree with at least we can debate the merits of points rather than leaving a 2-line response that's just looking for a fight and not even trying to contribute

I will restrain myself from saying more

[Dark Riku]

I could write another wall of text, but I'm not going to convince you SM boys even if I'm right haha

Sadly you are not and Ace explained why a few too many times now already.
What also bothers me is that you literally said that raptors under perform and that it's an undeniable fact when the total opposite is true. Quote below.

They underperform in T2 in the current beta. That is a fact.

I understand, you are not going to wirte another wall of text cus you know Ace is right.

This sums it up quite nicely.

I will restrain myself from saying more

You said this so many times by now it has become meaningless.

[Panda]

Is this really what the DOW community has come to? Just declaring what you believe is op/up as fact, cheap and hardly veiled attacks on each other, and saying that anyone who disagrees with you is basically lying? From what I've read in the previous threads I can safely say that there are a few, prolific writers here who never change their mind and constantly believe their race is underpowered and that any other race getting buffed without their race getting one too is unfair.

I was browsing through some older threads (yeah yeah I know, but I had some time off this afternoon), where I found a rather...interesting post from Mr Caeltos which I think has relevance here; apologies if I'm taking it out of context I'm not trying to drag you into this.

"I'm so fucking tired of you space marines whiners. I've just about had enough of your bullshit by now. In-matter of fact, it's always the same people with their same reasoning and one loop-sided arguements about shit they don't like. Yet, they won't even bring any issues about their main "faction" eventho it's as clear as day there's some troubles there." (followed by a quotation from Dark Riku as an example).

That's my two cents on the issue.

To be quite honest I expected the better players would at least be slightly more courteous to each other, especially when there's less skilled players actually trying to learn something and develop a point of view from your discussions.