Dark Reapers

[saltychipmunk]

there really isnt a particular unit gap in eldar t1 that we need to fill , no durable infantry in t1 is an eldar signature and guardians already handle the shooty aspects of t1.

and really dr + gu is pretty much identical to a tac + scout build . I doubt we need any more similarities in race structure

[Codex]

If u like theorycrafting come play path of exile it's free and awsome.

http://www.pathofexile.com/

So is dota

[saltychipmunk]

ehh i played poe for a good while , their economy is way too top heavy and you end up wasting all of your currency on nothing.

[Bahamut]

lol, my friends and i farmed a soul eater, a void battery and a shavronne's wrapping + about 10 more ex worth of gear just to quit the a week later. Took us close to 2 and a half months of 5-7 hours a day

[Codex]

So... getting back on topic... you know, Dark Reapers and all...

[Forestradio]

So... getting back on topic... you know, Dark Reapers and all...

I'm happy with the cost increase they got. It makes them bleed more, and makes it very hard to go double dark reapers, which basically deleted most HI squads on spot.

Thank you Caeltos for listening to our incessant whining and finding a reasonable solution that was in between "OMG OMG NERF NERF NERF" and "LULZ YOU NUBS DON'T KNOW HOW TO BEAT DARK REAPERS."

[saltychipmunk]

So... getting back on topic... you know, Dark Reapers and all...

I
"OMG OMG NERF NERF NERF" and "LULZ YOU NUBS DON'T KNOW HOW TO BEAT DARK REAPERS."

jump units? it has always been jump units. darkreapers have always bled well

just lead in with your hero , jump on them and then focus , if you dont force retreat you will get a bunch of model kills

frankly I was a little surprised at all the posts about players having issues with them.
if I recall ( and i am not 100% positive on this ) , they don't even have fleet

[Asmon]

They don't.

[Forestradio]

So... getting back on topic... you know, Dark Reapers and all...

I
"OMG OMG NERF NERF NERF" and "LULZ YOU NUBS DON'T KNOW HOW TO BEAT DARK REAPERS."

jump units? it has always been jump units. darkreapers have always bled well

just lead in with your hero , jump on them and then focus , if you dont force retreat you will get a bunch of model kills

frankly I was a little surprised at all the posts about players having issues with them.
if I recall ( and i am not 100% positive on this ) , they don't even have fleet

No they don't have fleet. But they can use holofields, can be supported by waiting shees, commanders. It's not as simple as just jumping the DR and auto-winning engagements.

I said that I was happy with their changes.

[Torpid]

Yeah, because it's not like you NEED that jump to inflict any damage on rangers/shurikens too. I like going 2x asm now vs eldar, it's funny since asm in t2 destroy shees, not so fun when they get seer council though

[Tex]

Yes of course, just jump the reapers right?

That is exactly the choice that reapers force you into. Do you jump the reapers? Or do you jump the shurikan? Lately I have been setting up those two squads in lateral positions so that the ASM are forced to jump one or the other. I have my banshees positioned in between and basically the end result is the same:
1) ASM jump shurikan, banshees and reapers eat them alive, rest of army tries to move forward, shurikan repositions, engagement stalled or won for eldar.
2) ASM jump reapers, banshees engage ASM while reapers move away (and probably bleed a model or 2), shurikan slows down any support for ASM, engagement stalled or won for eldar.

And if my opponent purchased 2x ASM, I would just buy another reaper or a wraithlord.

[saltychipmunk]

That is probably a bad example , one would just land on the plat and tie up the reapers with the tacs or commander.


dark reapers with the leader upgrade cost similar to the average jump unit anyway

and of course it is never just asm in t2. lotta options hit the field for sm like going dred , which would put a rather awkward wrench into the dark reaper bo

the asm just need to de-setup up a plat which they can do by landing , and then if the reapers are even in the vicinity asm can use that landing speed boost to tie them up

but this is quite clearly theory crafting. and thus more or less a pointless outlook on this.

depending on how good each player plays either scenario , yours or mine ,could easily play out

[Forestradio]

Tying up reapers with Tacs?????

You do realize that dark reapers do over 100 DPS to tacs right? And you realize that they get an ability that suppresses, right?

As for theorycrafting, Tex is not. He IS citing what he has done in a real game environment.

[saltychipmunk]

Tying up reapers with Tacs?????

You do realize that dark reapers do over 100 DPS to tacs right? And you realize that they get an ability that suppresses, right?

As for theorycrafting, Tex is not. He IS citing what he has done in a real game environment.

so have i , and reapers only do damage if they aren't in melee , again get tacs or anything , ive used scouts before and it works.

ive used tacs to tie up reapers , ive leapfrogged with asm , landing on the plat and then switching the reapers .

reapers are fundamentally just a ranged unit , a high model count ranged unit that can bleed.

again it can go either way depending on player skill

[Tex]

and I quote "Lateral positioning"

That means I have my reapers directly horizontal to my shuri, and far away enough to be at roughly max range. There will be no leap frogging. By the time those ASM try to switch targets, they are getting sliced to bits by banshees and reapers.

[xerrol nanoha]

Could someone explain why Dark Reaper damage was changed from Plasma to Inferno?

It seems that what that really does is increase Dark Reaper damage against normal infantry (for which Eldar has lots of good sources of standard anti infantry damage, i.e. Dire Avengers or Warp Spiders), while reducing the specialized anti-heavy/super heavy damage that Eldar tends to lack in the ranged sources.

It seems strange to reduce the role uniqueness of the Dark Reaper, unless its simply agreed that Dark Reapers were too strong against heavy/super-heavy in general.

[David-CZ]

Could someone explain why Dark Reaper damage was changed from Plasma to Inferno?

It seems that what that really does is increase Dark Reaper damage against normal infantry (for which Eldar has lots of good sources of standard anti infantry damage, i.e. Dire Avengers or Warp Spiders), while reducing the specialized anti-heavy/super heavy damage that Eldar tends to lack in the ranged sources.

It seems strange to reduce the role uniqueness of the Dark Reaper, unless its simply agreed that Dark Reapers were too strong against heavy/super-heavy in general.

They were indeed too strong. Plus with the plasma damage type they were a soft AV as well while being almost useless against light infantry. This way they aren't op against HI/SHI and up against LI.

[xerrol nanoha]

Could someone explain why Dark Reaper damage was changed from Plasma to Inferno?

It seems that what that really does is increase Dark Reaper damage against normal infantry (for which Eldar has lots of good sources of standard anti infantry damage, i.e. Dire Avengers or Warp Spiders), while reducing the specialized anti-heavy/super heavy damage that Eldar tends to lack in the ranged sources.

It seems strange to reduce the role uniqueness of the Dark Reaper, unless its simply agreed that Dark Reapers were too strong against heavy/super-heavy in general.

They were indeed too strong. Plus with the plasma damage type they were a soft AV as well while being almost useless against light infantry. This way they aren't op against HI/SHI and up against LI.

Now that Dark Reapers have having a damage type change to favor damage vs light infantry instead of damage vs heavy infantry, what now is the role of the Dark Reaper within the Eldar army?

Against Light infantry, Dark Reapers are much to expensive to be deployed just for this purpose, and would be greatly outclassed by Warp Spiders or Vehicals.

Against heavy infantry, Dark Reapers are probably best suited. However, I would expect them to be unnecessary compared to the other generalist options that Eldar would field against them, in particular banshees or setup teams would provide more utility in that regard.

Against super heavy infantry, I'm not really sure what to say. Dark Reapers were strong with Plasma type damage, but now with a nerf to Inferno type damage, it seems clear that no matter how strong they are against super heavy infantry, they're no longer meant to be an answer to super heavy infantry (or else they would still have plasma damage). I have a very-hard time believing that Dark Reapers were "too good" against terminators and their chaos/GK cousins, because terminators are and have always been stupidly game changing and unkillable when carefully managed.

Against vehicles, Inferno type damage is not as irrelevant as piercing damage, but still undesirable as a primary AV tool, and in this case I would say Dark Reapers with inferno damage are outclassed by Warp Spiders here as well.

I guess I don't understand what the role of Inferno damage is itself, as I would have expected it to be as good as Plasma vs Super heavy infantry, in order to make up the balance of greater Light damage and lesser heavy/ vehicle damage. It seems that Inferno damage in general is just worse.

[Batpimp]

try inferno dmg on HI and SHI and you will its great. are you aware of the exact modifiers of inferno dmg?

why do you think so many people use tzeentch marines instead of keeping them vanilla?

also if you think termies are super livable just stun them and lay on plasma/inferno fire and see the hp just be decimated in less than 10seconds

[xerrol nanoha]

try inferno dmg on HI and SHI and you will its great. are you aware of the exact modifiers of inferno dmg?

why do you think so many people use tzeentch marines instead of keeping them vanilla?

also if you think termies are super livable just stun them and lay on plasma/inferno fire and see the hp just be decimated in less than 10seconds

2 things:

plasma_pvp damage has 1.5 modifier vs super heavy infantry
inferno_pvp damage has 1.0 modifier vs super heavy infantry
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/Damage_types

seems small, but when your dealing with the volume of HP that most terminators have, thats a lot more inferno shots than plasma shots.

secondly, what can "stun" terminators? The only thing that I know of that stuns are stun type abilities, i.e. sentinel stomp, or ork stunbombs etc etc.

[Caeltos]

Keep in mind also, the Dark Reaper dps was increased slightly with the damage type change.

They still pack hell of a punch against SHI/HI and the likes.

[xerrol nanoha]

Keep in mind also, the Dark Reaper dps was increased slightly with the damage type change.

They still pack hell of a punch against SHI/HI and the likes.

4500(term squad) / (4* (15.17dps * 1.5 SHI-mult)) = 49.439683586 seconds of fire
4500(term squad) / (4* (16.687dps * 1.0 SHI-mult)) = 67.4177503446 seconds of fire
67.4177503446 / 49.439683586 = 36.363636364% more attacks necessary
1- (49.439683586 / 67.4177503446) = 26.666666666% net damage reduction

It's fair to see that the change from Plasma to Inferno damage has fundamentally changed the roll of the unit from being an anti-heavy/super-heavy armor squad; to being a generalist range damage squad.

I'm also unconvinced that anything that "isn't a Terminator" packs a punch against Terminators specifically. BUT THAT'S OKAY, because since Elite has been released, the prevalence of terminator units has increased by 200%!!!, so It's only a matter of time before everyone gets terminators!!! (I kid, but with more unique terminator units to deal with, the issue gets more complicated)

Since you are the boss, I would ask you what are the NEW roles of Dark Reapers and Inferno type damage in general?

Why would anyone choose those units/damage types over alternatives for any reason other than desperation?

[Bahamut]

wait wait, you're factoring the DPS of just ONE dark reaper model vs a complete terminator squad. EACH dark reaper model has 16~ inferno dps before upgrades, they end up having about 100 total inferno_pvp dps after upgrades? there's but a few squads in the whole game that can match that kind of DPS.

In other words, dark reapers will now out-shoot most squads and can function as a late game answer to lack of creativity or just to replace lost dire avenger squads if there's no tanks to repair. Even tzeentch marines are jelous of this guys in terms of raw damage.

[Forestradio]

The way I saw it, the inferno damage is too make dark reapers more viable vs all races and less annoying vs SM, GK, and other heavy armor races.

They also won't counter terminator nearly as hard now (with time field and dark reapers, all terminator squads are screwed)

I could be wrong of course though

[xerrol nanoha]

The way I saw it, the inferno damage is too make dark reapers more viable vs all races and less annoying vs SM, GK, and other heavy armor races.

They also won't counter terminator nearly as hard now (with time field and dark reapers, all terminator squads are screwed)

I could be wrong of course though

I suspect there is a lot of timing/ mind gaming with regard to terminator teleport cooldowns, since whether that is up or not determines just how easy it is for the terminators to win that engagement. In that case, it would probably be wisest to save timefield as a defensive response to terminators teleporting into Eldar forces, as apposed to a preemptive ability to initiate an engagement.

Also, although Time field is probably among the best answers to terminators, I almost never see the Farseer picked in favor of the aggressive power of the warlock. Perhaps that will be a matchup specific issue.

[Torpid]

That's just because the warlock is a joke really. I don't know of one matchup where the farseer fares better than the warlock.

[David-CZ]

That's just because the warlock is a joke really. I don't know of one matchup where the farseer fares better than the warlock.

Personally Farseer is my favorite and there is a good reason for it. Her spells are just incredible.

Time field can be used both defensively and offensively because of the fact it prevents abilities from being used as well as from dealing damage. Practically the only thing you can do is walk out of it. And terminators don't really like walking that much.

Then you have Doom, which is simply awesome.

Levitation field and Psychic storm, yet another two great crowd controlling abilities. And the Spirits stones are great as well. Not sure about the exact values but the heal is quite high and regenerates 60 energy as well. This means despite the energy cost 80, you end up paying only 20. You have to have at least 80 in the energy pool, though.

You also have Guide, which you don't even need to pay for and Runes of reaping (not sure how it's spelled) are great combined with any of her abilities.

If you need more tanky kind of a hero you have the Fortune. And if you simply want a lot of DPS there is the Singing spear.

She can basically fill any role you can think of. And thanks to her amazing crowd controlling abilities she is more annoying and dangerous then any high DPS tanky hero since they can tie up only one squad at a time.

Plus the invisibility and speed buff from gates are great too.


About the Reapers, they can also be a safer choice then to simply rush in with Shees. And as mentioned before, they can work as a replacement for Avengers in later game if you're not planning a vehicle.

[Batpimp]

try inferno dmg on HI and SHI and you will its great. are you aware of the exact modifiers of inferno dmg?

why do you think so many people use tzeentch marines instead of keeping them vanilla?

also if you think termies are super livable just stun them and lay on plasma/inferno fire and see the hp just be decimated in less than 10seconds

2 things:

plasma_pvp damage has 1.5 modifier vs super heavy infantry
inferno_pvp damage has 1.0 modifier vs super heavy infantry
http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/Damage_types

seems small, but when your dealing with the volume of HP that most terminators have, thats a lot more inferno shots than plasma shots.

secondly, what can "stun" terminators? The only thing that I know of that stuns are stun type abilities, i.e. sentinel stomp, or ork stunbombs etc etc.

many things can stun them.
warboss stomp
knob stun bomb
stikkbomb
warp vomit

For eldar there is more CC and debuffs than stuns. Time field, shimmering orb, doom etc
many of the elder units do decent to great dmg vs termies as well. The problem is they cant stand toe to toe with them so how long they can maintain their fire upon the termies is probably the problem. Moreso in 1v1