GK Balance Suggestions

[Flash]

I'm all for that myself. I am concerned with the fact that since it is an energy costing ability, and Interceptors already have much synergy with energy regening abilities, that it could be too over the top. According to the Wiki though krak grenade has a 50 sec cooldown. It would be hard to spam it at that rate I think. What do you guys think about the possibility of it synergizing too well? I think especially in the case of some transports and the manticore, it could be very devastating if you brought in, say a psycannon purgation as well

[ThongSong]

I would very much like krak grenades to be targetable to vehicles. if Warpspiders' haywire grenades can attach to vehicles, why not kraks?

however I do feel GK need a bit more to deal with AV because that lascannon rhino isn't going to do much against t3 predators and leman russes, and something other than melee or psycannon purgs.

eg purgs cost 330/30 and require another somethingsomething to get pyscannons, whereas a lascannon dev is 250/30 + 75/0 for long range, hard AV with a snare. and considering that purgs range with psycannons is fairly short, they aren't that durable, bleeding models on the way towards a vehicle really reduces their AV abilities.

as lulzy as this sounds, why cant we stick a lascannon onto a dread? Chaos gets a missile launcher dread with on-demand AoE suppression

[Flash]

Yes gk struggle vs vehicles, especially tanks. No laz on dread. For 2 reasons. First, it's unnecessary. The default Melta dred is fantastic, I rarely get any of it's upgraded weapons. dred doesn't need to be able to switch to a useless laz good against only one target. So since dred already serves as good AV giving it a las upgrade would be redundent. Secondly, default dred is 120 power. That is way to expensive (Without working in the cost of any proposed upgrades) to serve the role that a set-up team laz has.

[ThongSong]

^ yes the melta dread is great but it's short range is its limiting factor. no decent player would even allow a that thing to get within shooting distance of their tank. and the plasma cannon fires so slowly and stops its wind up the moment the dread takes a step it's pretty much useless as an AV weapon


on a side note, why do purgs have less hp than noise marines? (900 vs 1000), given that they're both close range flamer units. also, noise marines don't lose dps when supporting models die, whereas for purgs you REALLY feel that hit to your overall dps when a single model goes down.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

noise marines are certainly a stronger squad overall. that said, chaos.

i really don't want a damage buff though, they were really awful to fight before.

[ThongSong]

would it be asking too much to put the incinerator/psycannon on the lead model of the purg squad and combine all their dps into that single model? give the rest complimentary bolters or something? because for an anti-suppression, anti blob, anti tank squad, they really lose a lot of potency when they try to close the distance and end up losing models. a 2 man purg squad really loses a lot of its punch.

[FiSH]

that'd be unfair. they basically do what setup teams are meant to do. having all the weapon dps on one guy will make them a setup team that doesn't need to setup.

[taco86]

that'd be unfair. they basically do what setup teams are meant to do. having all the weapon dps on one guy will make them a setup team that doesn't need to setup.

This is quite a questionable point of view...

[Torpid]

They probably just deserve a buff of hp in t2 naturally to about 1200 from 900. An AoE suppression effect too would really finish the squad off imo.

[crazyman64335]

that'd be unfair. they basically do what setup teams are meant to do. having all the weapon dps on one guy will make them a setup team that doesn't need to setup.

i don't know how much you play GK but they certainly don't do what setup teams do. Let's do a comparison to the Space Marine Devs
Space Marine Devs - long range suppression, AOE suppression, upgrade able to long range AV with snare.
Purgs - short range, single target suppression. Moderate damage with flames, upgrade able with psy cannons, increase range (alittle) excellent damage to all targets.

Now i don't agree that the solution is to put all of that into a single model in the squad. Something to be considered however is giving them a 2nd upgrade option. You can either get the Psycannons or just upgrade to a lascannon. Obviously you can only choose 1, but GK need a snare, with something other than just their Krak Grenades.

[taco86]

They probably just deserve a buff of hp in t2 naturally to about 1200 from 900. An AoE suppression effect too would really finish the squad off imo.

Give them the option to upgrade to a 4th model in t2 (which would get them to 1200 life). This 4th model would have either a sword and storm bolter or halberd and storm bolter, and instead would grant a "special ability" depending on the current weapon used by the rest of the squad. Flamer ability could increase damage by like 15% for 5 seconds. Psycannon could have a forced 3-4 second suppress on a reasonable cool down.

Or the abilities could be "non overlapping" and instead increase the strengths of the weapons already chosen. As an example, flamer could have increased morale damage AND get aoe suppress for a very limited time. Psycannons could have an ability that increases their damage against vehicles for a limited period of time.

[Torpid]

Sounds decent, they do die in 2seconds in t2 however so something needs to be done about that, since they don't have the range that other suppression teams have which makes them much much more vulnerable.

I wouldn't mind making the sergeant grant that anti-melee mini-warp throw ability I was talking about earlier, that would make the flamer purgation squad scale into a nice t2 anti-melee squad, which would give them a more niche purpose compared to any other long-ranged-set-up suppression units that may and ought to be introduced.

[taco86]

Oh yeah! Forgot to add. Increase the size of the blue flame graphic when using the +20% range/sight special ability so that the flame actually extends to where the damage is being applied.

[ThongSong]

maybe on demand AoE suppression that has a fairly short range ala aiming wots dat + plague champion flamer ability.

regarding someone's earlier post disagreeing with putting all the dps onto a single model, noise marines have that mechanic, and they are a close range flamer type soft melee counter unit as well. why cant purgs have the same thing ?

[David-CZ]

I still wonder why the teleport on Interceptors hasn't been anyhow balanced. I mean the min-range would be a good solution but it wouldn't make sense. So I had this idea of having an option to buy an upgrade. Without it the squad would have instant teleport but wouldn't knock-back. With it they'd get the knock-back but there would be a delay to the teleportation like the one Bloodletters have (except that ring in the spot they want to port to). IMO this would solve the problem of having them jump into your face twice in a row and also give your set-up teams a better chance of survival because you'd have a chance of reacting in time or wouldn't get knocked down.

[ThongSong]

for 500/50 and considering the fact they need a 90/25 squad leader to disrupt, interceptors damn well be able to do their job well. I think they're fine.

[David-CZ]

for 500/50 and considering the fact they need a 90/25 squad leader to disrupt, interceptors damn well be able to do their job well. I think they're fine.

Of course the prices would have to be changed as well. I thought it was obvious.

EDITED:
Also you can't justify OP mechanics by giving them a higher price. That might work in 1v1 but not at all in 2v2 and 3v3.

[ThongSong]

you don't see interceptors wiping out 3/3 retreating squads of marines in the same way banshees do. the only way interceptors can flat out wipe out a setup team before it has a chance to get away is if they have nemesis focus + libby shroud buff on them, and that is a heckuva lot of investment into them.

you pay for what you get with interceptors, tis all I'm saying.

[saltychipmunk]

nah its far easier to use the brother commander power sword and then the damage global on the interceptors to wipe a 3/3 dev.

the libby is complete garbage. Way too much investment for a unit that is such a mishmash of heavily conflicting attributes.

who the heck thought it was a good idea to give him terminator armor and no movement speed abilities in t2? Easiest single model unit in the game to retreat kill ever by a vast margin.

dramatically inferior to the sm libby in every way imaginable.



On another note , upgraded purifiers are not worth 600 , 100 , that power investment is stupidly high for what amounts to melee strikes with power weapons. (the ability isnt really all that good vs anything other than static units),. and they seem to bleed shockingly easy

they really should have an opening price of 500 50 , not 500 75.

my opinion of course. but it seems much easier to just rush to terminators rather than wasting money on purifiers. Unless you didnt get interceptors or did double strikes. but even then... meh

[Asmon]

you don't see interceptors wiping out 3/3 retreating squads of marines in the same way banshees do.

This is extremely irrelevant as Interceptors are a jump troop.

[Dark Riku]

dramatically inferior to the sm libby in every way imaginable.

Knockback resistant? Awesome damage buff?

my opinion of course. but it seems much easier to just rush to terminators rather than wasting money on purifiers. Unless you didnt get interceptors or did double strikes. but even then... meh

They are pretty awesome at what they do. And you don't have the luxury to just wait for T3 normally.

[Forestradio]

Vindicare is confirmed to be in the works.

Does anyone have any info on the dreadknight? Because now in T3 my go-to option is GK termies, which with WATH, mind blades global, hammerhand, etc are the best infantry killing squad in the game.

I do think purifiers need another tweak somehow. Maybe an additional ability that buffs their damage but reduces their speed. Right now they are like KCSM. But not heavy melee, since they are too fast.

[saltychipmunk]

dramatically inferior to the sm libby in every way imaginable.

Knockback resistant? Awesome damage buff?

the knockback resistance is redundant , the brother commander already has it along with suppression immunity.

additionally he is very slow , so the logical counter to him is not to melee him but to kite him and then melee when he retreats.
the sm libby also has inspire if i recall which is also very nice for the damage dpt.

He also seems to path block melee units a little due too his reduced speed which is not helpful

dont get me wrong the knock back resistance and suppression are nice things, but they arent needed is what i am getting at , mobility is what is really needed , especially since 100% of gk t3 is slow melee units.

seems better to get a brother commander power sword and spend the libby money somewhere else.

my opinion of course. but it seems much easier to just rush to terminators rather than wasting money on purifiers. Unless you didnt get interceptors or did double strikes. but even then... meh

They are pretty awesome at what they do. And you don't have the luxury to just wait for T3 normally.

True , but then again gk has access to several competent melee units prior to purifiers in the form of the strikes and interceptors ,both of which would have the benefit of leveling up in t1

I don't know they feel frail too me for some reason. And I almost never use the ability so it seems like money wasted some what.

[Dark Riku]

the knockback resistance is redundant

I can't even properly reply to this -.-

True , but then again gk has access to several competent melee units prior to purifiers in the form of the strikes and interceptors ,both of which would have the benefit of leveling up in t1

Depends on your play style, BO, enemy, etc.

I don't know they feel frail too me for some reason. And I almost never use the ability so it seems like money wasted some what.

That's not a problem with the unit but you not using them correctly.

[saltychipmunk]

the knockback resistance is redundant

I can't even properly reply to this -.-

True , but then again gk has access to several competent melee units prior to purifiers in the form of the strikes and interceptors ,both of which would have the benefit of leveling up in t1

Depends on your play style, BO, enemy, etc.

I don't know they feel frail too me for some reason. And I almost never use the ability so it seems like money wasted some what.

That's not a problem with the unit but you not using them correctly.

but it is redundant , sure it is a nice thing to have , but the fact of the matter is that you already have the brother commander, having another unit for the knock back resistance , is a little redundant especially when it is at the expense of movement speed.

if purifiers were about the ability , they would start with the damn ability.

the ability does not justify the 75 power asking price, because if i recall you don't get the ability for the asking price. you just get 3 power melee models with melee charge and jump unit model hp that is not impressive at all. not for a t2 unit that lacks the exp bonus from leveling in t1.


i don't know , am still not convinced

[Forestradio]

@salty.

Purifiers with their justicar are very similar in cost and function to KCSM with eternal war and AC. They are both quick moving melee squads with good disruption, power melee, and some soft AV.

Purifiers get some extra perks though: More hp regen, an awesome anti-blob ability, and more health to start with.

That is before we start talking about the 100000000000000 ways you can buff your purifiers. Let's review them, shall we?
1. We are the Hammer (damage resistance and speed buff)
2. Warding (damage resistance and knockdown immunity)
3. Canticle of Absolution (restores energy, prevents enemy from using anti-melee)
4. Mind Blades (buffs damage and melee skill)
5. Shrouding (buffs damage and infiltrates them)
6. Might of Titan (buffs damage)
7. Purification Rites (restores energy)

If I missed any, please let me know. Bottom line is, they fulfill the role of dedicated melee pretty darn well.

[Nurland]

500 hp per model is not exactly "frail"

[saltychipmunk]

it is when you are just a straight up melee unit, hence why khorne csm are sometimes really frail as well .

damage taken on the charge in can be a deciding factor on ones opinion on the frailty of a unit , hence why i said they "seem" frail. I know very well their stats suggest otherwise.

on the topic of khorne csm, that is not a good comparison , khorn csm are an upgrade to a t1 unit whose roll extends into the majority of t1 and then into t2 alot of economic efficiency right there , on top of that there are the potential levels gained in t1 from the csm to consider.

So saying purifiers cost as much as khorne csm is most certainly not a good thing.

As for the many buffs one can use on purifiers , one could easily do the same for any other gk unit , like the strikes or the interceptors.

So it is better to not include buff in the equation , because you really can just use them on other units.

[Torpid]

that's why you have GKI to make the distance. GKI being the best t1 melee unit in t2, alongside canticle and just the libby they will shred everything, and I mean that, they will kill banshees fully upgraded of an equal level without losing 1/3 of their hp.

You're using the GK libby wrong, he's really nice, the issue with him obviously being that by getting him you forgo AV.

Use him as counter-initiation, his melee specials are impressive and you can actually use him in melee combat unlike the SM libby due to his knockback immunity. Furthermore when you complement GKI/SS/purifiers with him they can slaughter everything. In t3 GK termies supported by the libby stomp LC termies. Furthermore the libby can infiltrate purgation squads to help with AV, as well as using his damage debuff ability on vehicles to make them die quicker, he can also infiltrate paladins to guarantee tank kills or their safety after they retreat from a tank kill.

I would recommend this build for some good libby useage:

t1: starting IST + SS + IST + GKI -> IST sarge x2 (power sword on BC/incinerator on SS for a genbash are optionally, hence the brackets).

Get canticle of absolution while teching, and queue up a rhino for afterwards.

t2: Rhino asap, get lascannon as it does good AI and prevents a vehicle rush, use it to bash gens if they have no vehicles, or just for map control + fully upgrade GKI, then purchase the GK libby. It's quite easy to take down an opposing walker already, but you can add some purgations after if you're struggling, if not then just go t3 and get pallies.

The idea is to control suppression with super awesome GKI hopping all over with canticle, you can eventually get the warding staff or the hammer+teleport to really aid them in this role. With them hopping all over the enemy suppression/arty you can advance your SS/2x IST with sarge blob to focus fire enemy melee/heroes, then move you GKI libby up and activate his melee buff so that the GKI can beat dedicated melee ( this will own t2 sluggas or banshees really badly), meanwhile, you can krak grenade their walker with GKI (due to canticle constantly giving energy and SS justicar) then you use the doom ability on the walker from your libby and then follow it up with the rhino tying up any AV with your BC/GKI. It's very strong against eldar this tactic and I find it generally allows GK to stomp eldar in 1v1. Infiltrated purgations are nice in 3v3 and infiltrated pallies will really really really pressure tanks to the point where it's basically a guaranteed kill if you can walk up to their rear armour without using your tele.

[Ar-Aamon]

As saltychipmunk mentioned Purifiers are in a bad position in the GK unit roster. At first glance you might think Purifiers are awesome because of their assumed durability and the good charge but it turns out that they are outperformed by Interceptors in every way.
Interceptors do almost the same damage with the Nemesis upgrade and on top you get an awesome disruption and a setup-team counter. They are even better in their AV-role with the new sticky grenade. Sure Interceptors are more expensive with all their upgrades but it's definitely worth the price. I see absolutely no reason to get them (they struggle even against Sluggas with burnas and the Nob Leader (especially when they already leveled up)). Finally their ability is just meh. Easy to dodge and as the game continues in T3 even Guardsmen can tank the damage (Bugs just lolz of the damage with Endless Swarm and the Leader).

The solution to me is simple. Give them a little damage buff and a higher melee skill or better specials. The same I would suggest for KCSM.
_______________________________________________________________

The Libby is great as Torpid said. Sometimes I wish he should have some extra HP because he is damn slow. Therefor Might of Titan should get more HP and HP Reg so you can use him better in melee with your Termis. But this is only a nice to have and not crucial for Libby play.
_______________________________________________________________

The next thing that need to be changed (nerfed) is the Incinerator of Palas/Termis. It deals too much damage. Sure GK need something against blob armies like bugs or IG because they lack of artillery and struggle against them. But as it is now, the Incinerator is a little bit too effective. On the other hand the Psycannon of Palas/Termis need some love. As I mentioned once this "upgrade" is just ridiculous bad. Make them as good as the Purgation Psycannon and the problem is solved.
_______________________________________________________________

Finally something that really pisses me off: The infamous Subjugation and Chains of Torment combo of the Chaos Sorcerer against Palas/Termis. Any idea how to change this imba combo?!?

For now the Sorcerer simply subjugates the Pala/Termis use their teleport to jump in the chaos army and as soon as the Subjugation ends he uses Chains of Torment to lock them in place and now their teleport is on cooldown and they have no chance to escape this trap. The result: dead Palas/Termis. There is nothing you can do about this combo. Use Dark Excommunication? Well this CAN save them but you have to be very quick. Problem: You don't have all the time 175 red to spend. Canticle of Absolution? Yeah same here, you have to be very quick but in this case he can simply walk away from the Canticle and teleport afterwards. How about to using the teleport offensive? Na very bad idea, works only if you have the upper hand anyway and in this case the Subjugation/ Chains combo isn't such a great danger. Are the armies even you jump in your own grave.
The problem for GK players is that they haven't much options beside Palas/Termis in T3. SM can go for a Pred. GK need Palas/Termis if you want go toe-to-toe with GUO, Chaos Termis etc.