Is it OP or is it UP?

[Kvek]

I have been reading and contributing on the forums pretty regularly now and I have a question for you fine folks: "What do you find is overpowered or underpowered"?

Keep in mind this thread is not meant for argument in any way and please be respectful of anyone who contributes. The sole purpose for my asking is so I can get some ideas for things to test.

sorry, i'm a silly person :/

[Panda]

Keep in mind this thread is not meant for argument in any way and please be respectful of anyone who contributes. The sole purpose for my asking is so I can get some ideas for things to test.

Could you test Webway Gates in general? Or do you already have an opinion on them?

I know they've been hated on before and I don't want to jump on the bandwagon, but I've seen them used recently in slightly...abusive fashion.

[Tex]

I am currently working on a replay pack (which was disrupted by the change from beta 4 to beta 5... oh well) called "project balance". All of the comments and suggestions made in this thread are being used in this project.

So far I am working on eldar and I would absolutely say that yes, webway gates are over the top abusive. They are actually to the point where they are so strong that a good practice mate of mine (Lucidic) has focused almost all of his builds around getting webways up immediately.

[Cyris]

Yeah, gates seem to give a force multiplier that Eldar don't really need at an incredibly low red cost and low risk, even with the XP changes.

[Raffa]

Lol I can testify to Lucidic's gate use.

He basically maximises their potential. It's not even funny how ott they are when used correctly. Especially his 85 red to put a gate by power farm. I would like someone to explain to me how that is balanced on any conceivable level.

That's to leave out the awesome abilities they come with. Especially WL and FS.

I'd like that replay pack once it's done.

[Caeltos]

Especially his 85 red to put a gate by power farm

Well to be fair, it's actually 135. You always need 50 red for the starting gate.

[Toilailee]

Especially his 85 red to put a gate by power farm

Well to be fair, it's actually 135. You always need 50 red for the starting gate.

Well to be fair its 135 for the first use and 85 for all future uses. I use this a lot too everytime I play farseer (never nowdays) and regarding that, farsight actually has longer duration than cooldown. It's kinda funny when you can't use new farsight before the last one ends.

[Panda]

I want to hear the case for Webway Gates being balanced.

Or is this like the CSM vanilla AC where basically everyone agree it's imbalanced?

[ThongSong]

the thing that grinds my gears about webway gates is how an entire frekaing army can spawn on top of your scouting capping unit. you pretty much have 1 second to realize this and retreat otherwise that's a dead squad at pretty much no cost/risk to the eldar player

[saltychipmunk]

what if we remove the cloak feature but reduce the red to like 40 red.

seems like ever since the ability to go invisible was added to the web ways they have been nothing but trouble anyway

[Torpid]

No way, that's what makes them useful.

The very obvious solution would be to make them 75 red, I'm really not sure why they were reduced in price, I haven't even seen a successful argument for that yet...

[Raffa]

Webways are the ultimate in mobility and escaping. For a race which does not lack access to these two things. Webways like this should be ok:

75 red a pop.
1 min. cooldown between gates (so you can't just spontaneously grab a ton of them when you're in a dire situation and hold map with a smallish force).
XP value and build time stay the same as now.
Reduce healing effect on Warlock's gate to 5hp/s + make it not stack with channeling runes & reduce duration of Farseer gate ability to 8 seconds.

If you want this map control power you have to commit to it. That starts with a 75 red gate at base and needs longish-term planning.

I find a nice parallel is with Warp Spiders. They have great squad wipe potential in pairs (or 3s) by suddenly jumping on isolated squads often while there's a bigger fight going on somewhere else. Gates allow you to do this with an entire army. Especially the farseer. There is something fundamentally wrong with that concept. Also this includes potential grenades in retreat, the still super banshee chase and all the focus fire from all the Eldar's specialist units in the seconds it takes you to realise holy shit we is under attakkkk.

FWIW I've been playing Warlock recently and yes, the Gate heal stacking with channelling runes gives just a stupid spike (28hp/s???). That's 168hp/s on 6/6 banshees. For obvious reasons, this makes pushing against a Gate an absolute bitch. Specially since the rest of the Eldar army isn't sitting there like retards watching you focus the shees.

EDIT: for comparison's sake, that heal is nearly 2x the painboy's. And grenades on retreat are still a very real threat. If crazy posts the two games we played yesterday you will see

[Torpid]

yeah the cooldown between gates is something I've mentioned before as well, definitely agree. It's just retarded when somebody just pops up 8 gates across the map simultaneously and your like well fuck...

[Panda]

I find a nice parallel is with Warp Spiders. They have great squad wipe potential in pairs (or 3s) by suddenly jumping on isolated squads often while there's a bigger fight going on somewhere else. Gates allow you to do this with an entire army. Especially the farseer. There is something fundamentally wrong with that concept. Also this includes potential grenades in retreat, the still super banshee chase and all the focus fire from all the Eldar's specialist units in the seconds it takes you to realise holy shit we is under attakkkk.

I like this analogy.

But if the Eldar player can concoct that stacking healing situation, which seems rare, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to take advantage of it.

[Dark Riku]

How is it rare? It happens all the time when you travel between them.
Get back at base, pop heal, get out of gayt on the field, pop heal again.

[Torpid]

Riku you seem so bitterly nonobjective in any discussion regarding eldar it's really quite ridiculous.

How is it common that the whole eldar army would be situated around a single webway gate with banshees directly next to the gate and the ability had not been used by the time you launch a full on attack at that position with the intention of destroying the gate. You can't have your army sitting around a gate all game...

[Bahamut]

Riku you seem so bitterly nonobjective in any discussion regarding eldar it's really quite ridiculous.

How is it common that the whole eldar army would be situated around a single webway gate with banshees directly next to the gate and the ability had not been used by the time you launch a full on attack at that position with the intention of destroying the gate. You can't have your army sitting around a gate all game...

Actually yes you can, that's why webway gates are there for. You see an army closing to your gate? load your armies into the another webway gate and spawn them at the gate that's being attacked and you'll always have the scenario described by rikku

[Torpid]

Except eldar are an army all about positioning, they're hardly orks, they can't just pop out and charge senselessly at an entire army because they will bleed disproportionately, unless of course it's a warlock with warp throw (that ability...). Furthermore I'm talking about in 1v1, so most of your army won't even be blobbed, they will capping and in their respective positions around the map.

[Dark Riku]

Riku you seem so bitterly nonobjective in any discussion regarding eldar it's really quite ridiculous.

And all your post just are ridiculous. could you stop being so obnoxious?
I speak from first hand experience with being the WL myself.

[Torpid]

You're not offering any rational basis for your claims so if you're not going to do that and formulate an argument for us to debate about then fine, just straight up show us this replay whereby you keep positioning your entire army around one webway gate to slaughter your foe WITHOUT getting bashed/losing map control.

[Codex]

Um, Torpid, I'm not saying that Riku doesn't hate Eldar, but frankly I don't see why you're arguing against the fact that a Warlock has the potential to use webway heal at base and when he pops out of it again. Since the webways don't share ability cooldowns, that's hardly rocket science.

[Torpid]

I'm not arguing that and nor was Panda...

[Tex]

Lets keep in mind that this thread is a NON-ARGUMENTATIVE THREAD.

[Torpid]

Whoops, well I forgot that