GK Balance Suggestions

[Forestradio]

As saltychipmunk mentioned Purifiers are in a bad position in the GK unit roster. At first glance you might think Purifiers are awesome because of their assumed durability and the good charge but it turns out that they are outperformed by Interceptors in every way.
Interceptors do almost the same damage with the Nemesis upgrade and on top you get an awesome disruption and a setup-team counter. They are even better in their AV-role with the new sticky grenade. Sure Interceptors are more expensive with all their upgrades but it's definitely worth the price. I see absolutely no reason to get them (they struggle even against Sluggas with burnas and the Nob Leader (especially when they already leveled up)). Finally their ability is just meh. Easy to dodge and as the game continues in T3 even Guardsmen can tank the damage (Bugs just lolz of the damage with Endless Swarm and the Leader).

The solution to me is simple. Give them a little damage buff and a higher melee skill or better specials. The same I would suggest for KCSM.
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The Libby is great as Torpid said. Sometimes I wish he should have some extra HP because he is damn slow. Therefor Might of Titan should get more HP and HP Reg so you can use him better in melee with your Termis. But this is only a nice to have and not crucial for Libby play.
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The next thing that need to be changed (nerfed) is the Incinerator of Palas/Termis. It deals too much damage. Sure GK need something against blob armies like bugs or IG because they lack of artillery and struggle against them. But as it is now, the Incinerator is a little bit too effective. On the other hand the Psycannon of Palas/Termis need some love. As I mentioned once this "upgrade" is just ridiculous bad. Make them as good as the Purgation Psycannon and the problem is solved.
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Finally something that really pisses me off: The infamous Subjugation and Chains of Torment combo of the Chaos Sorcerer against Palas/Termis. Any idea how to change this imba combo?!?

For now the Sorcerer simply subjugates the Pala/Termis use their teleport to jump in the chaos army and as soon as the Subjugation ends he uses Chains of Torment to lock them in place and now their teleport is on cooldown and they have no chance to escape this trap. The result: dead Palas/Termis. There is nothing you can do about this combo. Use Dark Excommunication? Well this CAN save them but you have to be very quick. Problem: You don't have all the time 175 red to spend. Canticle of Absolution? Yeah same here, you have to be very quick but in this case he can simply walk away from the Canticle and teleport afterwards. How about to using the teleport offensive? Na very bad idea, works only if you have the upper hand anyway and in this case the Subjugation/ Chains combo isn't such a great danger. Are the armies even you jump in your own grave.
The problem for GK players is that they haven't much options beside Palas/Termis in T3. SM can go for a Pred. GK need Palas/Termis if you want go toe-to-toe with GUO, Chaos Termis etc.

The might of Titan upgrade already increases the GK libby's health and hp regen. He's fine. He actually has good abilities, unlike the SM libby.

GK terminator incinerator is bugged, and they are working on fixing it.

Purifiers are plenty valid if you didn't get interceptors in T1. Purifiers are also horrible in team games: never buy them, cause they will just get focused down. They are much better in 1v1.

As for the subjugate combo, that can be used on every terminator squad. If he subjugates, back off a little and then as soon as your termies are ported, rush in with the rest of your army to support. You should kill the central chain with the stormbolters of your termies, which actually do solid dps.
Once the chain is down, his juicy Tcsm are at the mercy of force halberds with hammerhand and mind blades.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

As for the subjugate combo, that can be used on every terminator squad. If he subjugates, back off a little and then as soon as your termies are ported, rush in with the rest of your army to support. You should kill the central chain with the stormbolters of your termies, which actually do solid dps.
Once the chain is down, his juicy Tcsm are at the mercy of force halberds with hammerhand and mind blades.

point being that 2/3 options in t3 are countered by that combo.

[saltychipmunk]

Purifiers are plenty valid if you didn't get interceptors in T1. Purifiers are also horrible in team games: never buy them, cause they will just get focused down. They are much better in 1v1.

So they are basically ogryns? pretty sure the insane power cost on purchase is what keeps both units from performing in team games.

1v1 has a stupid amount of resource nodes to work with , which partially explains why these high power cost melee units can see some use in 1v1 .

but any unit can be focused down in team games. be it khorn csms / purifiers / ogryns , or the more common asm raptors and interceptors.


Im not exactly sure what the 75 power and 90 power pays for on the purifiers and ogryns respectively.

neither squad starts with an ability ,which many other cheaper t2 melee units do start with abilities.

neither squad has anything particularly unique in t2 . melee heavy in an army that has almost no issues with tanks is not much of a selling point. power melee even less so.

are we paying that extra 35 - 50 power for just the privilege to have heavy infantry armor? in t2 plasma damage hell?

and then we have to pay another 25 power just to use the ability indicative of the unit?


I don't get it , I really don't

It seems to me like an obvious waste of power for nothing special. aoe damage ability? yawn I got grenades for that shit and they do far more damage and have knock back and are in t1 and don't cost 100 MOTHER FU@#$#$@ING POWER #@$#%.



GRAAAAAH

[Nurland]

The mod's balance is based primarily in 1v1. Hence the unit costs etc economies are tailored for a more balanced 1v1. Not necessarily 2v2 or 3v3. Though I have seen Lulgryns and Lulifiers in team games and I've even seen them do well.

[saltychipmunk]

of course , of course I wont dispute that , I did say their stats on paper are fine.

I just dont understand why they need to eat up so much power for no ability and then even more power for an ability.


both units with their squad leader cost the same as a terminator squad that is positively nutty

[Nurland]

Yeah... Comparing them with Terminators is not really a viable comparison.

[Torpid]

The units are just tanks for primarily ranged armies. Especially ogryns, those guys have SHI armour, a warp spider squad will only take off about 60 of their 1.8k hp per burst, that's ridiculous, and that's their role. The downside of ogryns/purifiers being that they obviously don't counter suppression/arty, but ogryns are a good counter to walkers, while simultaneously tanking infinite piercing damage and therefore dealing with most t1 ranged squad compositions, and due to their knockback ability they can even counter dedicated melee. You're paying so much because the squad is versatile, and it takes fairly large investments to counter them. If they already have a counter (i.e. double suppression) you obviously wouldn't get ogryns unless you already had a counter for their counter(infiltration on inq, or manticore, or spotters etc).

Therefore ogryns/purifiers need to come out late so their initial cost must be high, however, that being said, these units are very hard countered by things such as suppression/arty and after these things are out and ready to counter them, suddenly said units start to bleed a bit disproportionately IMO. Ogryns for example scale rather poorly into t3, when preds, termies and nobs are out they really just start to bleed to no end and ultimately mean IG shouldn't have gone t3... Same happens with purifiers, but it's worse for GK though since their t3 is the only counter to tanks really, whereas IG have ample means of dealing with literally ANYTHING in the game with only their t2.

I wouldn't mind making the leaders of such squads die last since really they're a complete necessity, yet at the same time they bleed disproportionately, I mean 100/30 for an ogryn bone 'ead is ludicrously expensive, but it has to be so high so that ogryns aren't too rushable.

Failing that maybe they shouldn't cost so much upkeep?

[Dark Riku]

both units with their squad leader cost the same as a terminator squad that is positively nutty

They don't cost you 350 red and you don't have to be in T3 either to get those.
Not to mention the big differences between the units. Like the ability to retreat.
Edit: What Nurland said.

[saltychipmunk]

I was only comparing cost, not the units effectiveness in regards to terminators.

also when was the last time gk terminators cost red?

fine ill use a more appropriate comparison , they have the power cost of walker units.

that is the best I can do , as there really aren't any other t2 specific units that cost that much power.

and I think people are over estimating the versatility of these units. They arent hard to counter at all they are just std melee squads and can be hard countered with some movement control abilities.

, infact the only times when they are is when the opponent digs their own grave by getting the few units that are specifically vulnerable to said unit

But the ogryns / purifiers are so power heavy that you end up spending more resources to counter something that costs less or the same . That isn't all that efficient

I wont dispute that it can get the job done , but I cant help but think there are more economical and versatile alternatives to them for less money wasted on situation specific abilities or unit attributes.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Ogryns/Purifiers simply are very support-dependent. Alone are meh, but with enough support they are beasts.

[sk4zi]

maybe bacause they are so Powerfull ?

especially Ogryns add a totally new form of possibilitys to the army. they helb the IG player a lot in many situations.
also they are really strong for a T2 unit. so they are expensive too... easy to understand imho

[Torpid]

Ogryns/Purifiers simply are very support-dependent. Alone are meh, but with enough support they are beasts.

Put simply, that's it.

[Dark Riku]

I was only comparing cost, not the units effectiveness in regards to terminators.

also when was the last time gk terminators cost red?

You said terminators, you didn't specify you were talking about GK terminators
and yes, terminators and Chaos terminators cost red.

fine ill use a more appropriate comparison , they have the power cost of walker units.

that is the best I can do , as there really aren't any other t2 specific units that cost that much power.

Ogryns are also the substitute for walkers and are generally better imo too since they can retreat away while walkers once in a bad spot usually means they are dead. And although Ogryns don't force any av upgrades they still force other upgrades like plasma, suppression, etc.

[saltychipmunk]

If this is true , then that means they are unit that requires even more investment on top of their already high power cost to work.

That seems kind of backward. one would think a unit with that kind of power investment in t2 would be the exact opposite and require less baby sitting to work.

its almost like having to pay 40 power in t1 for a banshee squad on top of the 100 , 25 for the t1 upgrade.

I cant help but feel , that the purifiers and maybe even the ogryns would fair better if they came with their abilities.

surely we can all agree that 90 power and 75 would be enough to justify an ability.
besides these two melee units tend to bleed their squad leaders alot any way. So making the squad leader mandatory for the squads larger functions can be seen as a major factor in why I and some other see these two units as not cost effective.
'

So lets switch up the question. Does anyone here see giving the purifiers their ability at the start as a particularly bad idea?


edit
"Ogryns are also the substitute for walkers and are generally better imo too since they can retreat away while walkers once in a bad spot usually means they are dead. And although Ogryns don't force any av upgrades they still force other upgrades like plasma, suppression, etc."

plasma and suppression tend to be favorable t1 hold overs (suppression) or favorable t2 upgrades (plasma) and most t2 melee unit upgrades come in the form of melee heavy or power melee anyway. So I would npt really consider it too much of a economical change for most armies (with the exclusion of pierce damage heavy armies like say eldar) to address the ogryns

[Dark Riku]

plasma and suppression tend to be favorable t1 hold overs (suppression) or favorable t2 upgrades (plasma) and most t2 melee unit upgrades come in the form of melee heavy or power melee anyway. So I would npt really consider it too much of a economical change for most armies (with the exclusion of pierce damage heavy armies like say eldar) to address the ogryns

Plasma isn't T1 so can't be "hold over". If suppression is present in T1 you should already have some sort of counter for that too. As said before, don't buy Ogryns when all the counters are already on the field. The same goes for vehicles.

[saltychipmunk]

plasma and suppression tend to be favorable t1 hold overs (suppression) or favorable t2 upgrades (plasma) and most t2 melee unit upgrades come in the form of melee heavy or power melee anyway. So I would npt really consider it too much of a economical change for most armies (with the exclusion of pierce damage heavy armies like say eldar) to address the ogryns

Plasma isn't T1 so can't be "hold over". If suppression is present in T1 you should already have some sort of counter for that too. As said before, don't buy Ogryns when all the counters are already on the field. The same goes for vehicles.

sry i worded that wrong , i mean plasma was a t2 thing and suppression is the hold over , my bad

though that would explain how exceptionally rare the ogryns are , but enough side tracking.

what do peeps think about the possibility of permitting the purifiers their ability with out the need to buy a squad leader?

[Ar-Aamon]

One important difference between Ogryns and Purifiers is that Ogryns have SHI Armor and Heavy Melee damage. Purifiers don't have this beside the Heavy Melee of the Justicar. Why compare those 2 different units. That's not the point.

Purifiers are lesser Interceptors. That sums it up. All they can deliver the Interceptors get the job better done.

And it won't help them if they get their ability without the justicar because it isn't such a great ability (it has its usage e.g. cap denial).

[saltychipmunk]

One important difference between Ogryns and Purifiers is that Ogryns have SHI Armor and Heavy Melee damage. Purifiers don't have this beside the Heavy Melee of the Justicar. Why compare those 2 different units. That's not the point.

Purifiers are lesser Interceptors. That sums it up. All they can deliver the Interceptors get the job better done.

And it won't help them if they get their ability without the justicar because it isn't such a great ability (it has its usage e.g. cap denial).

well I compared them because despite those things you mentioned , they are very similar units.

both are conventional melee, both have a durable armor type, neither have jump capabilities and as such are easy to control with things like knockback and suppression.

both have a power requirement similar to a walker

neither come with their signature ability despite a huge buy in price. Both you buy with the knowledge that you basically have to pay extra jsut to make the unit fully functional (ie the ability ).

both are rarely used. except in certain very specific matchups.


and at the very least giving them the ability on purchase is something , even if it is nothing more than a pittance , fight for what is gettable.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

make the BC's daemon hammer heavy melee.

that will give walker's something to think about.

Meh, maybe i'm teribad (probably) but I find the halberd to be far more useful in a melee dps role. The aoe special the hammer gives can be very nice combined with a tele pack tho, especially when you have a ceptor squad using furious intervention with strike squad feeding them energy (so you can use it 3x back to back). Overall I find the power melee aoe or the staff specials to be better tho.

The Daemon hammer is very gud , it does Singular 100 dps to Sub-comms & Heroes alike. His CC Ability can really turn engagements follow-up with Canticle/Vortex for SS/Int/Purifiers,that ability is not really meant for an Escape Mechanism . FWS good for End-game Titan armour and Shielding Paladins/GK termies from Chasing down Vehicles while under Massive Fire-power. Halberd ,IMO Not really worth getting it for the Sake of hitting on Infantries .

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

I don't know if anyone else have mentioned this already but I just noticed this when I did a test run earlier.

The Grey Knight Plasma Cannon Dreadnought's weapon range is ludicrously low, I mean it's about the same range as it's Multi Melta, the Psy cannon has a longer range than that plasma cannon. If it's suppose to count as Grey Knights "Artillery" I sincerely suggest upping the range considerably.

[Uncle Milty]

Dread plasma cannon has range 35 (Multimelta 25), psycannons have range 36. So you're right about psycannons having higher range.
On the other hand i imagine that there are good reasons why it doesnt have so much range. It has the same damage per hit as the sm-plasma cannon, they almost shoot equaly fast but the dread doesn't need to set up/down and cannot be knocked down or threatened to death by anti-infantry aoe/sigil for obvious reasons and doesn't cry like a baby if it gets jumped since it still does 73 heavy melee dps with its claw.
Sure, it does cost a lot of power to get in the first place but it is compared to the pdev very mobile and durable and it does have considerable range for gk standards.

On a side note: since it doesn't need to set up and its wind up is only 0.6s, it can get shots out really quickly compared to the pdev making it a much more versatile threat if microed properly.

[fankater]

Replace Mines with Grenades Kit (70 r 15 p). This gives Stormtroopers two grenades. First frak/incendiary second stun. Grenades shares cooldown. 65 energy cost. OR give sergeant frag/incendiary grenade.

[Orkfaeller]

Do they really have a need for both Grenades AND Grenade launchers?

[crazyman64335]

i agree, grenades and grenade launchers being on the same unit is rather awkward. I'd honestly rather see the energy draining grenade from the interceptors and put that on the strike squad with their justicar, and remove their 2nd ability they've got atm. Just a thought

[Orkfaeller]

To be honest, Ive been playing GK the last couple of days,
and I dont really understand why so many people pick on StormTroopers.

I honestly believe they are AWESOME.
Or their Grenade Launchers to be more specific.

Maybe its because as a SM player I usually only get lousy Scouts, but I dont see much reason to tweak ST.

[Torpid]

They're fantastic with their lasgun, they fire in bursts and move at speed 5.5 in t1, that's so unbelievably strong for their price.

[Raffa]

As usual, I maintain that on the whole GK Tier 1 is largely balanced and effective. However, they are still missing that one thing which they need as a race that cannot rely on a hard-hitting melee unit to deal with T1 melee threats. A hard melee counter.

Space Marines and IG are the two other races who cannot rely on a hard hitting melee unit as a melee counter in T1. Consequently, they have Shotguns and Sentinels respectively which help them deal with banshees/jump infantry/hormas/etc.. GK lacks a unit that can do this especially for Jump infantry. Grenades can disrupt charging units decently enough but jump infantry is the big threat.

Instead you are forced to counter-initiate with focus fire and possibly SS/hero melee and relying on their specials to carry the day. I agree with the toning down on SS specials but it makes all melee threats that much more problamatic. For a race which doesn't deal with them brilliantly anyway.

Personally I wouldn't be beyond changing the plasma gun option for a catachan-style shotgun (is this doable?) which has the same close range ability that does knockback and suppression.

Then again 2.2 is about to come out and I want to test how mines now work.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

The range is NOT 35, test it out for yourself it moves way closer than that to fire.
It looks more like 27 range than 35.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

fyi standard range is 38 and setups are 49. mobile av is 44 and setup av is 65. 35 would be less than standard range and 27 is a little more than elite flamer range, which is 24 iirc but i know that's in the patch notes.

[Uncle Milty]

Well if you say so..? At least those are the values inside the ingame files. If there's a deviation in weapon range from the values i stated it should be buggy. Or the behaviour of the dreadnaught for some reason doesnt allow it to use the full weapon range for some reason. I'll test it when i start to work at gk tooltips.