Paladins

[ThongSong]

the opposite of that replay is one game where the SM player hit t3, got assault terminators, and the eldar player who stayed t2, got dark reapers that utterly annihilated the termis and went on to win

[David-CZ]

The reason why he probably didn't go for DR is because he is new to ELITE, which he stated in chat.

But let's say he went for DR and it was WL he played. If the Terminators used their teleport only to retreat, than even if bleeding them, it would most likely cost Cultured Boy his own squads bleeding with them doing so much damage both in melee and range (when upgraded). And since the reinforce cost of Terminators/Paladins is so low it wouldn't be fatal.

[ThongSong]

^ the reinforce costs for GK termies is a little buggy.

but with the farseer, there are a million and one ways she could have made mince meat out of the terminators

fortune and guide buffs on shees, dark reapers. doom debuff on paladins. add in some dark reapers on even a wraithlord instead of going t3 and the terminators would have been toast

[Nurland]

Uh, he was FS not WL... While the reinforcing of the Terminators might not have been the end of the world for the GK player economically he would've had to sloooowly move them back to his base and heal them up/reinforce earlier.

This would've likely delayed the second squad of GK termies and at least cost the GK player some vps. Ofc it is easy to say stuff like this in hindsight but going T3 at that point was pretty much the worst decision he could have made. Those Termies hitting the field should not have been a GG.

I really do not see the problem there. He got out teched and instead of pressing the advantage he had, he gave it up.

Imo there really are no balance argumentations to be made based on that replay...

[Bahamut]

a wraithlord would've tied up those GK nicely, and it's also cheaper than a GK termie squad

[David-CZ]

but with the farseer, there are a million and one ways she could have made mince meat out of the terminators

Uh, he was FS not WL...

Misunderstanding here. The 'let's say...' was meant for the WL as well. I know FS has her ways of dealing with stuff like that.

a wraithlord would've tied up those GK nicely, and it's also cheaper than a GK termie squad

But wouldn't the Terminators just ignore him and walk away while burning the infantry? If the HP went down he could just port away and even if losing a model or two they'd be easily replaced. I don't know how much damage they deal to vehicles but he could build Paladins to deal with a walker instead of going for another Terminator squad.

[Kvek]

a wraithlord would've tied up those GK nicely, and it's also cheaper than a GK termie squad

But wouldn't the Terminators just ignore him and walk away while burning the infantry? If the HP went down he could just port away and even if losing a model or two they'd be easily replaced. I don't know how much damage they deal to vehicles but he could build Paladins to deal with a walker instead of going for another Terminator squad.

Bahamut would be right, if the paladins didn't fire on the move,they shouldn't fire on the move imo.

[Flash]

If they're running away from the wraithlord, they're not gona be facing the right way to burn infantry. Additionally, the tele has a really long cooldown (as it should be). If it has been used offensively, the termies are now very vulnerable if you have anything to put the dps on them.

@kvek
I disagree that termies should not be able to fire on the move. Think about it. The majority of the time you don't let termies of any variant walk up to your army and beat on you in melee if you you don't have counters. We are the hammer changes that dynamic by means of making the termies go faster, but the idea holds true. Lack of firing on the move would essentially make the flamethrower useless except for genbashing, the psycannon would be conpletly useless, and likewise the stormbolter. Both of those upgrades are designed to add a bit more flexibility/efficiency in gk t3

[sk4zi]

i strongly agree that GK terms reinforce for too low cost.
really this is ridiculous. i dont see any reason why its just a 3rd of the SM´s Terms reinforce cost. (powerwhise)
due to the fact that GK is very infantery based and they are the super duper mega special force of mankind it could be cheaper but not that much.

imho either SM terms must be cheaper (which i think is the better way because there were many changes to the vulnerability of terms because of addet counters like Dark reapers)
or GK terms need to be more expensive.

[saltychipmunk]

the lack of retreat pretty much keep any terminator from being a game changer by themselves.

usually one needs serious support abilities to make terminators good

it is way to easy to exploit their glaring weaknesses with out said abilities,

[HandSome SoddiNg]

i strongly agree that GK terms reinforce for too low cost.
really this is ridiculous. i dont see any reason why its just a 3rd of the SM´s Terms reinforce cost. (powerwhise)
due to the fact that GK is very infantery based and they are the super duper mega special force of mankind it could be cheaper but not that much.

imho either SM terms must be cheaper (which i think is the better way because there were many changes to the vulnerability of terms because of addet counters like Dark reapers)
or GK terms need to be more expensive.

SM/Terminator variants global-call in,2-3 Upgrade & Demoralize/Inspire per kill + both have LC. Maybe just slightly increase the cost of those Halberdiers termies.

[Ace of Swords]

And? If anything the fact that they also cost 350 red and have a huge cooldown makes them way worse than GK termies.

[David-CZ]

Indeed. Plus GK variants have either normal or strong ranged attacks and splash melee attacks as opposed to SM assaults who have to pay extra to get LC which also reduce their durability and have no ranged damage at all.

[Torpid]

Maybe it's because of the way the GK meta works...

Suffice to say GK are like melee orks hence they bleed more and struggle to maintain an economy as great as SM's, not to mention their entire t3 and even t2 ultimately is VERY dependent on terminators.

[David-CZ]

... their entire t3 and even t2 ultimately is VERY dependent on terminators.

Why is that? Do you think maybe adding more units to GK would improve their overall performance?

[Flash]

Lore wise, there's not much else to add that is exclusive to GK I think?

[Black Relic]

The only thing that is a bit much, which everyone knows, is the flamer on the paladins. I haven't followed up on if it will get changed or not. I am sure that game posted would have been a little different if the flamer didn't do that much damage.

Also keep the Termies cost the same. They are supposed to be a heavy reinforcement cost. But i feel like GK termis\Paladins should be the same.

Termies: 125\30

Paladins: 140\40

Thoughts?

[Flash]

The only thing that is a bit much, which everyone knows, is the flamer on the paladins. I haven't followed up on if it will get changed or not. I am sure that game posted would have been a little different if the flamer didn't do that much damage.

Also keep the Termies cost the same. They are supposed to be a heavy reinforcement cost. But i feel like GK termis\Paladins should be the same.

Termies: 125\30

Paladins: 140\40

Thoughts?

No? because GK would have even less of a presence in t3. Termies and paladins are the only t3 units they can get along with the lr which is hella expensive.

[Cyris]

I think 50 Power to reinforce a SM terminator has always been well over the top. The unit reinforces like it costs 900/300 I think. GK terminators cost around 2/3 the req and 1/3 the Power, and certainly don't impact the battlefield much differently. The trick is, SM has a tank GK would sell out the God Emperor himself for. In the context of GK, the termie reinforce cost seems fine. If SM had those numbers too, I think it would be mighty OP. But same goes for GK suddenly having a predator drop in at T3!

[HandSome SoddiNg]

The only thing that is a bit much, which everyone knows, is the flamer on the paladins. I haven't followed up on if it will get changed or not. I am sure that game posted would have been a little different if the flamer didn't do that much damage.

Also keep the Termies cost the same. They are supposed to be a heavy reinforcement cost. But i feel like GK termis\Paladins should be the same.

Termies: 125\30

Paladins: 140\40

Thoughts?

No? because GK would have even less of a presence in t3. Termies and paladins are the only t3 units they can get along with the lr which is hella expensive.

Your'e still forgetting Vindicate assassin & dreadknight hasn't arrived yet =(

[Kvek]

No? because GK would have even less of a presence in t3. Termies and paladins are the only t3 units they can get along with the lr which is hella expensive.

So, you would buy termies for the same price, but then you would need to be more careful...

[Black Relic]

^^

I dont think we would see less Paladins and Temies. Like Kvek said just more carefully play from them. Dont really like watching Paladins\termies charge in a fight like nobs and get away without too much of a consequence.

To reinforce two SM termie models is 300\100.

Termies are amazing units. Tough and deal out some damage. But if used incorrectly i think should be a recuperation. And their reinforcement cost stay the same. Besides. How often do you see a termie die when their overall health is above 1\5? For me is not that often.

However, same goes for the GK termies. So i do feel they should be hit somewhat harder than they currently are when they lose a Termie\Paladin model.

As for Nobs. They are Nobs. They cheat death all the time. Why? They Nobs, its what they do lol. I can go on and repeat that phrase "They Nobs is why" but i am sure everyone gets it. (joke so laugh)

[Flash]

@Kvek.

The issue isn't with buying them, it's with sustaining a presence in t3 which is what changing reinforce price affects.

@Sod
You know I'm awaiting both of those as much as the next guy, but until they are implemented I'm not going to speculate on the possible balance issues that they bring in regards to terminators. There is little point in nerfing termies now in order to compensate for units which may or may not be added in the future.

@wa1234agh
paladins get owned by nobs. And I would never want to engage nobs with just termies. They need support. In the replay used for this, I took a calculated risk with the paladins. Until they came out, I was having trouble dealing with his Dred and my thoughts were I need it gone in order to gain/maintain map control. So I followed into base to take it out knowing that he had no plasma damage to really lay a pounding on and that the teleport's cooldown was almost over. I would have traded a paladin model for his Dred at 2x the reinforce cost due to the neccisity of eliminating his Dred. In the end I didn't lost a model which I did not expect.


in general it would be best if we stopped comparing what termies/palies do for gk compared to what they do for SM. The two factions are incredibly different rendering comparisons of the two kinda irrelevant. What it's boiled down to mostly is "he has super cheap termies! Why can't I have cheap termies too?!"
This just doesn't take into account the overall differences and synergies among the two factions. Evaluate gk t3 units within the context of gk balance and capability. Evaluate sm termies within the context of sm balance and capability. And I personally think sm termies reinforce for too high, but that's not relevant to the purpose of this discussion.

[Batpimp]

It reminds me of the fact that few people know how to counter GK.

care to give us some tips?

[Kvek]

It reminds me of the fact that few people know how to counter GK.

care to give us some tips?

he is right, go double wb vs gk and hes powned, but nobody expect me/torpid knows that

[Forestradio]

If you are playing a GK player, expect a terminator variant as soon as you hit T3.

You should then plan accordingly, by buying snares, ability knockback, plasma damage, etc. The fact that the terminators are demolishing your whole army is because you didn't prepare. Same thing with nobz: if you are playing orks, expect a nobz squad.

I don't want an already limited GK T3 to be nerfed more.

[Bahamut]

What i think needs to be looked at is the flamer on both GK termie and paladins

[Forestradio]

What i think needs to be looked at is the flamer on both GK termie and paladins

It's glitched to do huge burst damage. It's already on the bugs thread, and they are looking into it.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

@Kvek.

The issue isn't with buying them, it's with sustaining a presence in t3 which is what changing reinforce price affects.

@Sod
You know I'm awaiting both of those as much as the next guy, but until they are implemented I'm not going to speculate on the possible balance issues that they bring in regards to terminators. There is little point in nerfing termies now in order to compensate for units which may or may not be added in the future.

@wa1234agh
paladins get owned by nobs. And I would never want to engage nobs with just termies. They need support. In the replay used for this, I took a calculated risk with the paladins. Until they came out, I was having trouble dealing with his Dred and my thoughts were I need it gone in order to gain/maintain map control. So I followed into base to take it out knowing that he had no plasma damage to really lay a pounding on and that the teleport's cooldown was almost over. I would have traded a paladin model for his Dred at 2x the reinforce cost due to the neccisity of eliminating his Dred. In the end I didn't lost a model which I did not expect.

Only thing needs nerfing is Incinerators of Terminators,nothing Else. Already gk lacks Artillery-support or Predators ,just Termies & LRC ,they take a Long-Ass time to Pump out on the field. I want see how V.A & Dreadknight will change GK performances ,t2 Gk will have V.A ,but 1 more slot left to fill?

[ThongSong]

I'm often loathe to even get any form a terminator variant for GK, or even go into t3 for that matter because getting a terminator unit on the field for GK means you NEED to win the next engagement with your terminators or go on to lose the game as by that time in the game you probably won't have time to disengage your terminators and heal them up from base. and if you would rarely have enough resources at any one point in time to field both terminators and a LRR at the same time.

Plus GK have no way of quickly getting their terminators back to base apart from WATH in the same way Chaos or SM have.

I personally would rather get another dread or purgation psycannons to complement interceptors to deal with vehicles rather than try to beat up a tank with paladins.