Anti-infantry squads counter transports

[Sub_Zero]

Watch this replay. I am sure Dark Reapers can do the same thing. And for me it looks really broken.

High damage ranged anti-infantry squads should only counter infantry and should get destroyed by any kind of a vehicle.

P. S. No need to say that vehicles must be supported and can be repaired and other obvious facts. I know it.

[Nurland]

Could you tell me, which ranged anti-infantry squads you think as viable counters transports? You mentioned DR but apparently there is some other squad in the replay and I for one am too lazy atm to watch a random replay not even quite knowing what's in it.

[Sub_Zero]

2 squads of fully upgraded chaos marines with the mark of Tzeentch. They melted a razorback in seconds and lost only one model.
Full damage to LI/SHI, x1.25 damage to HI and capable of destroying a transport. I always consider them as an overpowered unit. Not to mention their toughness and high melee damage.

[Kithrixx]

... yeah? That's the point of Eternal War/Mark of Zeen Chaos Space Marines. They're basically Sternguard Veterans - they can engage anything, and it takes a long time (and a lot of resources) to even get to that point - a total cost of 665 Req and 70 Pow. Tie them up in melee and laugh about it. They may be better than most ranged squads at melee, but they're still a ranged squad in melee.

[Indrid]

They do ~2 DPS per model to vehicles. So yeah, if you park a 400 HP vehicle in front of two fully upgraded squads for ~25 seconds (yes I timed it: 24.6s) it's going to blow up.

Pro-tip: don't do that.

[Ace of Swords]

Tmarines are meant to be a very soft counter to vehicles.

[Lulgrim]

2 squads of fully upgraded chaos marines with the mark of Tzeentch

Guess you didn't play retail back when every micro-challenged nub and their cat rolled with 3-5 TCSM builds, in single control group of course (or is it still done?)

They melted a razorback in seconds

No they didn't (unless you mean a lot more seconds than people saying that usually do...)

[Orkfaeller]

2 squads of fully upgraded chaos marines with the mark of Tzeentch

Guess you didn't play retail back when every micro-challenged nub and their cat rolled with 3-5 TCSM builds, in single control group of course (or is it still done?)

God, that shite made me quit retail and switch to ELITE
MoT and Plague Marines, and endless stream ... °_o

They melted a razorback in seconds

No they didn't (unless you mean a lot more seconds than people saying that usually do...)

Well, 30 seconds are still seconds, but yeah,
they are not an AV option on their own, but they REALLY pile up the damage.
Its not fun having to retreat lets say a dreadnought back to your base and during the ENTIRE way those double MoT Marines just unload onto it.

[Toilailee]

Are you sure it wasn't just a rhino with shi armor?

[Sub_Zero]

It was a sm's rhino which has vehicle armor. Well I shocked about what people has written here. If it seems BALANCED for you then I just huddle in a corner and cuddle my hands to my face in sorrow...

OK let's imagine a situation. I made my t2 choice, I bought a razorback. My opponent decided to made an abusive choice - upgraded his chaos marines. I should have an advantage. Because he has a vehicle to deal with. So I can pressure my opponent keeping my unupgraded infantry inside my vehicle or send them to capture some points. But sadly I discover that my vehicle does not stand a chance against enemy infantry whose purpose is destroying other infantry.

Look they demolish heavy armored units, they easily kill light infantry and super heavy infantry. And they are capable of killing transports or some weakened walkers. Someone said they are like sternguard veterans. I am not sure sternguard veterans can do nasty things to all armor types like tzeentch marines do. And hey you can field as much tzeentch marines as you want while you limited only to one squad of sternguard veterans (only acid bolts worth buying them).

And I do not wonder why the tzeentch mark overshadows the khorne mark. Who will refuse from all the goodies that tzeentch marines provide? And who will make a strange choice getting khorne marines who are not as good as tzeentch marines are and khorne marines have almost the same cost?

I would be fine with tzeentch marines performance if they would cost way more. 150/35. Big investment. Big bonuses.

P.S. I see a hot discussion about dark reapers being OP. They almost do the same thing. But they are fragile, have more models and pathetic in melee combat. I know they are in the roster of Eldar. But you know...

[Nurland]

So he spends 1330/140 on his 2 infantry squads and you are amazed that your 300/60 support vehicle cannot solo them without the support of the rest of your army/proper micro?

[Primitive]

tcsm are not really op ..... u just need to adapt ur playstyle that was what a more skilled space marine player told me when his triple sniper build fucked of my 2 csm squads .... everything has its counters and i think theres no OP unit in the game atm its all about ur playstyle

[Sub_Zero]

Hm, I only ask for additional 5 energy and 30 req. That is not too much, isn't it? Plasma gun's (tactical space marines) cost was 65/35 and that was too much in terms of energy. 150/35 cost for the tzeentch mark is not that bad because it allows to do things I've mentioned before.

Primitive, I did not say I had troubles dealing with them, did I? I raised this topic because I thought that the capability to take out a vehicle is too much for the upgrade which supposed to counter infantry.

[Ace of Swords]

Tcsms are fine as they are.

[Orkfaeller]

In my experience ( as a (tech)marine player )

best way to fight Mark of Tzeentch Marines is not to fight them.

Especially since I like to go for double Tacs in T1 it seems like a good transition to just get a razorback, sergeants and try to take the chaos player head on.

Not worth it, even if your Razorback stays more or less unharmed, your Marines melt faster than you can reinforce and your stupid sergeants will die ALL THE TIME.

By now, if I see my enemy goes for a shooty shooty army I just get devastators, like lots of them. And save your Power either for a dreadnought or a transition into T3.

I'm sure its possible to fight MoT Marines with Tacs / Sternguard if supported with the right commander and/or a reinforce point, but I dont think you get the shorter stick in the rescource efficiency.

[Nurland]

2 x Fully upgraded MoT Csm do less AV than one SG squad. So they really are not a very formidable AV force. Tcsm without actual snares can't do anything against even decently microed RB.

[Sub_Zero]

Fully upgraded tactical marines sometimes win against fully upgraded chaos marines. But it depends on luck. If tactical marines reduce numbers of tzeentch marines to 2 then tactical marines win. To achieve the sucess 2 condidtions must be met: 1) kraken bolts activated 2) loyalists start to shoot first

Have a replay to prove my words but it is off-topic. The thread is not about it.

[Asmon]

During the 25 seconds your Razorbak spent taking damage from TCSM, have you at any moment thought about using the Smoke ability, which now in Elite only reduces damage taken and by a gigantic 80%?

[Bahamut]

During the 25 seconds your Razorbak spent taking damage from TCSM, have you at any moment thought about using the Smoke ability, which now in Elite only reduces damage taken and by a gigantic 80%?

IIRC that change only applied to catachans smoke bomb and not RB

Still, razorback is a support unit, you can poke with it but shouldnt be on its own

[Magus Magi]

I am not sure sternguard veterans can do nasty things to all armor types like tzeentch marines do. And hey you can field as much tzeentch marines as you want while you limited only to one squad of sternguard veterans (only acid bolts worth buying them).

You called?

I agree with the quoted section of this thread above and would like Vengeance round range reverted to normal. Actually, I wouldn't mind asking for additional Kraken round damage as long as I'm here commenting again...

I really can't stop talkin about Tacs and Sternguard...

[Codex]

TCSM have been hammer nerfed and hammer nerfed and hammer nerfed ever since their inception. In fact, back in the day inferno_pvp AND plasma_pvp were anti-all damage, hence 3 plastacs being able to beat down predators with ease especially if they had FC support.

In the end, though, if you support the vehicle and micro it properly, it's highly inefficient for these infantry squads to chase and do sustained damage to a razorback. And even if you don't want to micro it around, smoke grenade. Even if it prevents outgoing damage, you already accepted you're not trading favourably out of this situation anyway.

[Asmon]

During the 25 seconds your Razorbak spent taking damage from TCSM, have you at any moment thought about using the Smoke ability, which now in Elite only reduces damage taken and by a gigantic 80%?

IIRC that change only applied to catachans smoke bomb and not RB

Still, razorback is a support unit, you can poke with it but shouldnt be on its own

The change has been applied for every smoke-like ability.

[Dark Riku]

The change has been applied for every smoke-like ability.

No it hasn't ^^ Catachans have a different smoke bomb then the rest.
Normal smoke bomb: "reduces both ranged damage and received ranged damage by 80% and lowering received suppression by 90%"
Catachan smoke bomb: "reduces received ranged damage by 50% and lowering received suppression by 100%"

And I do not wonder why the tzeentch mark overshadows the khorne mark. Who will refuse from all the goodies that tzeentch marines provide? And who will make a strange choice getting khorne marines who are not as good as tzeentch marines are and khorne marines have almost the same cost?

KCSM are awesome. And I don't feel like explaining this yet again.
Go watch Noisy use them in the 2v2 tourney for example.

[David-CZ]

I do get MoK on my CSM. Only when playing CL though. But still, they are great combined with his worship and globals.

PS: I never play double TCSM, the build seems boring.

[Sub_Zero]

Well could we just exclude the possibility to harm vehicles with tzeentch marines? They already do hell of a job dealing with all kinds of infantry. Same would apply to dark reapers. Or you really think they should help to kill vehicles and 2 squads should act as a hard counter to transports? (head to head fights are won by tzeentch marines)

P. S. I like khorne marines too. But they are not good against orks, eldar, IG and probably tyranids. They are useful only against sm and csm. And I say a fact. Players do prefer tzeentch marines.

[Vapor]

Well could we just exclude the possibility to harm vehicles with tzeentch marines? They already do hell of a job dealing with all kinds of infantry. Same would apply to dark reapers. Or you really think they should help to kill vehicles and 2 squads should act as a hard counter to transports? (head to head fights are won by tzeentch marines)

No, because most people in this thread do not agree that there is a problem with tcsm. And you're not supposed to send a solo razorback out to counter 2x tcsm, it's a support/transport vehicle for a reason. If you engage with some of your other units the dps of the razorback will help you win the engagement.

[Sub_Zero]

That sounds strange when I see someone argues that transports are not supposed to fight infantry without av capabilities. Then I can say that anti-infantry squads are not supposed to counter a unit with vehicle armor.

[Kvek]

i heard that two shee squads counter a razorback
srsly, you can't kill a razor with tcsm, maybe when you are hitting rear armor, but even then the razor will survive if it has over 80hp.

[Arbit]

The razorback does nice single target piercing dps but is still more of a light infantry harassment unit that relies on mobility for defense. Still, even if it had a bajillion HP, it still wouldn't be a very effective counter to heavy infantry squads, particularly if they are in cover.

This is an instance of "live and learn", not TCSM being an OP unit.

[Forestradio]

Tcsm are fine.

I have never ever had a vehicle die because tcsm were the only thing shooting at it. If you leave your vehicle out in front of 2 tcsm squads for a while and let them dps it down then it's your fault for dropping your micro/not understanding what tcsm do.

They are great anti-infantry and very soft AV. A fully upgraded squad (EW and AC) does around 8.5 dps to vehicles.

So two squads should do 17 dps to your 400 health razorback, and take around 24 seconds to kill it.

You left your razorback there for 24 seconds.