Snowball Evaluation

[Raffa]

I wouldn't mind a few changes in order to make more late game matches, however I am reluctant to modify what I perceive as the core of the game. You know what I mean.

But after all, we have the opportunity to beta test everything. I'll be happy to test whatever sounds reasonable.

And as far as 1v1 is concerned, I don't worry about snowballing effect too much. If I had to, I'd check SM, Chaos and Tyranids first obviously.

Pretty much yeah.

[Vapor]

I think it would be cool if there was a "practice" mode where repurchasing lost gens would be cheaper or even free. Maybe even reinforce costs could be lower too. To keep the game fun, of course, there would have to be some other penalty for buying gens or reinforcing. So maybe your opponent would gain X amount of VPs when you rebuild a gen/model. 50 VPs per gen, for example.

The idea here would be to keep the match competitive until the VPs run out, so that the game stays fun for both sides all the way through t3. To reiterate, this would be a practice game mode, to be used when players aren't well matched, or if both players just want to make it to t3 and practice their late-game micro.

As it stands, I think most players have a lot less practice with late-game gameplay (especially t3) than t1. Since t3 is when you have the most units and most stuff to micro, it'd be good to get there more than once every 5 games.

I'm personally not a fan of changes to the core game itself.

[saltychipmunk]

My understanding is that the whole gen farm loss problem stems more from the fact that certain races are just vastly superior at the start of the game than others.

eldar and sm and to a very very small extent gk can very easily be overwhelmed if rushed before they get their first few power investments , like the banshee aspect , shotguns or the optional powersword

be it igs ability to double their squads hp for no power cost .. and then get stomp on a sentinel

chaoses insane heretic utility,
or the melee races nid and orks being able to just crush early game ranged armies


plus not all races are equal in the late game.


some races build around rushing to late game and then ending the game before the other races make it to t3 .

others just flat out suck in a prolonged t3

and conversely others are just insane once the t3 ball gets rolling.

Thus I too share concerns that this might invite unwanted issues down the line

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

1. I don't agree with increase the duration of the matchs. A good balanced 1vs1 match can easily last 24-25 minutes, which IMHO it's a pretty decent duration. I can't simply see (not mention with play) a 50-60 minutes game like a CoH2 one. I get bored.

2. A energy increase in the T2 upgrade could make a heavy T1 suffer too much against a quick vehicle rush if he suffers a power farm bash.

3. Tyrannids and GK have a crazy snowball effect through tiers, and even more with the last changes/buffs/new upgrades. IMHO they need a look. The other factions are more or less balanced snowball effect.

[Flash]

Would it be possible to have the t2/t3 upgrades's costs decrease with time? It just adds more flexibility by not punishing you as much for heavily investing in a tier economy wise, but you can still get mauled by an early vehicle due to time constraints.

[Torpid]

Since when does going a heavy t1 ever punish you? In fact I would say the opposite occurs far more often. By going a light t1 you risk far more in that you are assuming your foe won't go for a heavy t1 himself and bash your gens.

[Tex]

Its all a gamble. A heavy tier 1 doesn't guarantee a gen bash. A light T1 (unit wise) doesn't guarantee a fast tech.

[saltychipmunk]

indeed , if you go heavy t1 but dont get that gen bash in early enough , it could cost you the game.

This is also why races like IG have always been an awkward problem. Since unless they got catachans they can coast into t2 on minimal power investment

[Nurland]

Well if IG goes to T2 with minimal power investment, you should quite easily be able to punish that. Unless you get outplayed.

[SirSid]

Well if IG goes to T2 with minimal power investment, you should quite easily be able to punish that. Unless you get outplayed.

Witch is quite likely , ( catachans are OP )

[Ace of Swords]

Well if IG goes to T2 with minimal power investment, you should quite easily be able to punish that. Unless you get outplayed.

2 sents + spotters OR catas will deal with everything in t1, most of the time 2 sents + 2 gm is enough, and your opponent will need alot of investment in power to deal with that you'll have ogryns or a chimera before he can hit the t2 button.

[Nurland]

Well I haven't played a lot of 1v1 in Elite so I'll have to take your word for that, Ace. But I still am somewhat convinced that if you pull off double Sent into Catachans and manage to get a T2 unit like Ogryns out before your opponent even starts teching, you are quite severely outplaying your opponent.

[Ace of Swords]

Mostly depends on commander, but usually it's not possible to deal with 2 propely microed sents without getting a setup team + snipers or more ranged fire than you already have, and that get's easily countered by spotters which are half of the investments that the guy made to just counter the sents, you aren't outplaying him in micro, you are outplaying him economically.

[Nurland]

Idd you probably have to invest a bit more than the IG player in T1 but not enough to be 80+ power behind.

[Ace of Swords]

that's then highly depends, you don't really need to upgrade GM, atleast initially, so that's 170 (iirc 85 for sarge) req saved, the build is semi-req heavy, but you won't bleed at all if done correctly, meaning you can get 3 gens and maybe a 4th or 5th up rather quickly.

[Nurland]

Hmmm. I suppose that gives the IG player an edge is the opponent does not realize the fast teching early enough since well microed double sent is pretty good at stalling especially in T1.

[saltychipmunk]

hence why i said ig was a problem race

alot of people don't think about how insane the synergy of having a t1 tank/counter infantry unit and a cheap to reinforce repair squad in t1 early game is.

most races have a squishy vulnerable unit from the word go. for a little req Iq can outright remove that Achilles heel with no power investment .

1000 hp and like 8 to reinforce for just 85 req is just juicy , and it usually forces the opponent into investing power into aoe.

the other races would at minimum have to invest power and some will still bleed hard (cough eldar , cough)

[Torpid]

It simply doesn't work like that at all. It's very easy to push the IG player into a corner and pin him there where he loses mc and ends up teching slower than you. If he pushes out of it with a composition of only 2 sents/catachans he will lose his farm, because he will be forced off and have to repair his sents.

Granted the non-full t1 roster BO for IG is undoubtedly far stronger than going full t1 - spotters+cats+2x gm + sent + wargear. As SM/chaos you can easily punish the build though and usual achieve a gen bash and take out the sents early on. As eldar or orks you just tech with them because wraithguard/weirdboy dominate IG in t2. Nids have always had the hardest time vs IG because sentinels hurt them the most due to them lacking that suppression team as well as them not having an aoe powerhouse unit in t2 (zoans do not function anything like WG/WeBo).

Unfortunately I don't think many people realise how you're meant to deal with sentinels :S

[saltychipmunk]

the funny thing is the effective counter to sentinels is almost comically bad against the wall of meat that is the ig army

snipers?
set up teams?
concentrated direct fire damage?

great vs sentinals.

no so great against a race with 2 t1 disruption units a t2 super arty unit and 2 high models squads in t1.


anyway we might be derailing the thread a smidgen with all this talk about ig

[SirSid]

Personaly i think the problem is the bleed. Ig used right do not bleed at all in t1 ( in a fair match up lof course )

It`s simply to easy to keep your guardsmen out of harms way and aplying DPS with sents, catachans have massive damage sharing and do not losse moddels to snipers so again a `bleedless unit` All this in t1 .. for very cheap means getting to t2 first is easy.

Also getting a secound gen farm up is very easy with a dual sent build since u are constanly presuring your enemey it is safe to put up a secound farm with 1 or 2 gens VERY early even vs races that are power killers like SM flamers , they will never get to the secound node with 2 sents pounding on them. Getting the upgrade for the guards men is not need with 2 sents. u can save that rec for fast teck then get the upgrades when your early chimy is building.

Like most things in DOW it`s a gamble , using 2 sents in 1v1 and lossing 1 will coast u alot , however it will be your fualt if 1 is downed as u hold ALL the cards . a well used dual sent build will punish any other race in t1 even orks with a shit load of early dakka.

[Torpid]

I disagree. With double sents it isn't up to you to mess up in order to lose a sentinel because a good player simply won't, it's up to a good foe to actively punish the sentinel, trap it and kill it.

[saltychipmunk]

yes because bad players often put sentinals in those traps, good players dont

[Dark Riku]

You can't actively punish a unit with speed 8 that doesn't bleed and is unsuppressible.

A thread of topic again. Who would have thought that? :p

[Torpid]

Yeah, I guess codex trapping your sentinel in the northern VP yesterday (jarilo's forge [horrible eldar/ig map] while you were repairing it with his double devastators and then promptly bringing the rest of his ranged army around by the devastator he knew you would retreat past was an example of the impossibility to 'trap' a sentinel. That was his good play, not your bad play. Look, you can even trap sentinels with heretics and khorne worship, once the stomp is gone a tic squad with 7 models can fully immobilise a sentinel if they surround it.

[Dark Riku]

No, that was my bad play. I saw his devs coming in a foolishly stayed there instead of moving to a better position.

Look, you can even trap sentinels with heretics and khorne worship, once the stomp is gone a tic squad with 7 models can fully immobilise a sentinel if they surround it.

Those are some very specific things that have to happen then. Sent has used stomp, have 2 tics, the one charging in has to have 7 or more models, for some reason the sent is standing still. Something I don't see happening any time soon.

A thread of topic again. Who would have thought that? :p

[Vapor]

That was his good play, not your bad play.

Most of the time it's both, the winning player made a good play and the losing player made a mistake by not preventing it.

[Torpid]

No, that's not what I mean, but I'm failing to enunciate things here and we're drifting too far off topic let's just forget it, but I'm not conceding that at all.