Apothecary Combat Stimulants

[Sub_Zero]

I want to discuss something but don't think it is worth to create a whole new thread. I wanted to post it in Space Marine's thread but it is closed.

So I have an idea to improve Apo's stimulants pack. Now this wargear allows to boost damage output of a friendly unit by 30%. (Does it boost both melee and ranged damage output, by the way?) What about to make the ability so that it boosts melee skil by 5/10 (preferably 10)? Imagine, buffed tactical marines stand against strong melee squads, buffed assault marines make wonders, buffed libby performs his awesome special attacks one by one. Space marines lack good melee units, they really do. Apo has no access to assault terminators. So a little help would be great. I would not mind to see a cost increase of the combat stimulants if we decide to buff this wargear like that.

What do you think about my idea?

[Ace of Swords]

They should give him abit more healt and 50 energy, so that you can actually use other abilities that might synergize with it.

[Nurland]

Apo Stims also grant suppression immunity iirc.

[Ace of Swords]

Yeah, that could be very well removed in favor of + hp and energy.

[Torpid]

What do you think about my idea?

How am I meant to kill apo-asm if I can't even hurt them in melee?

[Asmon]

Especially effective with flamer against garrisoned heavy weapon teams.

[Torpid]

Or as a counter to tic doomblast/shee warshout. I really am failing to see why stims are so bad, they also work great with missle tacs and razorback play and of course on ASM alongside VoT.

It's just a little more micro intensive to have 2/3 abilities instead of 1/2 abilities alongside the fact that stims are more niche than moar heals that people buy armour of purity. It doesn't mean stims are UP.

[Tex]

Stims are 100% fine. Btw, they don't grant supression immunity as far as I know. I'm pretty sure its a 1 time large boost to courage.

I love the way stims work and I don't wanna see it touched one bit.

[Sub_Zero]

I have an idea to improve Apo's stimulants pack. Now this wargear allows to boost damage output of a friendly unit by 30%. (Does it boost both melee and ranged damage output, by the way?) What about to make the ability so that it boosts melee skil by 5/10 (preferably 10)? Imagine, buffed tactical marines stand against strong melee squads, buffed assault marines make wonders, buffed libby performs his awesome special attacks one by one. Space marines lack good melee units, they really do. Apo has no access to assault terminators. So a little help would be great. I would not mind to see a cost increase of the combat stimulants if we decide to buff this wargear like that.

What do you think about my idea?

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/Apothecary/Abilities - that is what wikia says. 40% damage buff and break supression and supression immunity, lasts 15 seconds. Is that true? I thought in elite mode stims got 30% damage buff not 40% buff.

At the moment Combat Stimulants' cost is 100 req and 25 energy. If we are going to buff the warger like I suggested then we can adjust the energy cost to 30/35.

I think the wargear is fine as it is but a bit underused. And the t1 armor upgrade seems more attractive for players to have. 3rd armor is hardly ever seen but IMO it is a very good wargear even with such a high cost.

P. S. I ask moderators to transfer all replies after my message from "Space Marine Librarian" thread here.

[Lulgrim]

Stims are 100% fine. Btw, they don't grant supression immunity as far as I know. I'm pretty sure its a 1 time large boost to courage.

The -10000 courage damage (or something like that) is to break existing suppression, then it's followed by 15 seconds of 0x suppression.

I thought in elite mode stims got 30% damage buff not 40% buff.

40% was the original buff, nerfed to 25% in Retribution, 30% now in Elite.

[Dark Riku]

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/Apothecary/Abilities - that is what wikia says. 40% damage buff and break supression and supression immunity, lasts 15 seconds. Is that true? I thought in elite mode stims got 30% damage buff not 40% buff.

It should break suppression for 15 secs. It should give a 30% boost.
You can find more up to date info on Elite Wiki & dawnofwar.info/codex
The data contradicts itself so I'm not sure: 25%/30%

At the moment Combat Stimulants' cost is 100 req and 25 energy. If we are going to buff the warger like I suggested then we can adjust the energy cost to 30/35.

You mean 100req and 25power. It takes 40 energy to use.


I wouldn't mind seeing an increase of 5MS when using stims.
Would only give the ability slightly more utility on the libby and asm. On other squads the increase in MS wouldn't even matter. It still won't matter versus most things out there that knocks them on their asses. Just not by specials anymore for a brief time.
If you are not a genestealer, Kcsm, etc.

[Sub_Zero]

On other squads the increase in MS wouldn't even matter.

Will help tactical marines to win in melee combat a weakened melee squad. Because tactical marines won't be knocked back often due lower melee skill. Sometimes you want to do it but then it goes terribly wrong, tactical marines are getting knocked back and it leads to serious problems. And it looks funny when tactical marines become meaner in ranged and melee combat with all the buffs that ability "And they shall know no fear" provides and still can be knocked back.

I wouldn't mind seeing an increase of 5MS when using stims.

That is probably the most balanced solution.

[Forestradio]

Can the apo use stims on himself?

The wargear is niche, since most people go for armor of purity healbot, but a melee skill buff would make it a pretty good choice for SM armies, IMO.

[Dark Riku]

Will help tactical marines to win in melee combat a weakened melee squad.

All it will do is give them 5% less chance to get knocked back.

Can the apo use stims on himself?

Yes.

[Sub_Zero]

Ace mentioned some synergies. I don't really know about these synergies but I think when apo uses stimulants on himself and then throws a grenade it is gonna be pretty painful. Will stimulants buff the damage of apo's grenades?

[Black Relic]

Ace mentioned some synergies. I don't really know about these synergies but I think when apo uses stimulants on himself and then throws a grenade it is gonna be pretty painful. Will stimulants buff the damage of apo's grenades?

I am not so sure, I doubt it though. I wouldnt try that though since the energy cost is too high to combine stims and his grenade. The Apotho wouldn't have enough left to use his heal until level 5 or so if you wanted to use nades and stims consecutively.

[Sub_Zero]

Combat stimulants on libby make his smite stronger. And apo can use both abilities if he has 100 energy. 40 + 35. Has to be on the field a bit more to use his heal. (Yes, you said it, I am sleepy) But let's imagine he throws a defensive grenade. Anyway have to test it somehow.

[Tex]

I don't think this thread has provided any solid reason for buffing a very usable wargear that currently sits in a good spot.

I could see it if stims were obviously UP or way overshadowed or something, but it definitely isn't.

[Ace of Swords]

If anything, with the energy cost of his abilities,his actual fighting capability,resistance and nerfed CD on heal, there is no option other than armor of purity.

Unless ofc, you do it for fun.

[Asmon]

I disagree with this. For instance Stimulants will be far more useful than any heal on Terminators. And since it is rather cheap, nobody's forbidding you from switching armors periodically.

[Sub_Zero]

Yeah I can't disagree that wargear is good. Just threw an idea to make it even better.

If I understand correctly the ability buffs all damage that unit can do. For example we use it on tactical marines. They will do more ranged damage and more melee damage, right? But if we use it when kraken bolts activated? Does it give pretty good damage against heavy armored units in this instance? Or if we buff them and then use kraken bolts? How is it going to be in this instance? Same question about vengeance rounds.

[Ace of Swords]

I don't really see a reason to buff terminators with it or rather, wasting precious req and power just to buff termies with it, the best use of it would be on a lascannon, or ASM before using a melta bomb and then engaging in melee combat, the heal is overall way more necessary to win engagments.

The apo is already a wargear intensive hero, aswell as energy intesive, you really can't play around with them both for eco and energy managment for such small gain.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I don't really see a reason to buff terminators with it or rather, wasting precious req and power just to buff termies with it, the best use of it would be on a lascannon, or ASM before using a melta bomb and then engaging in melee combat, the heal is overall way more necessary to win engagments.

Maybe not the best squad to use Combat Stimulants, (because the inmunity supression is wasted) but I don't see how give +30% damage done to a squad which in vanilla form do 100 piercing_damage in ranged combat and 100 heavy_melee dps in melee combat it's a wasted.

Not mention is they have the flamer or the assault cannon.

[Ace of Swords]

Simply because it's not cost effective in the slightest. As far as gear swapping goes.

[Broodwich]

lol, if you have stims and terms they are the best spot to put them! Nevermind the fact that each time a terminator kills something, it buffs all your guys anyway, from a purely mathematical view giving a straight % buff to a unit means the higher your initial damage, the more bonus damage you get.

Unless you are going for vehicle takedown and put it on an AV squad

[Ace of Swords]

WOW 130 PIERCING DPS AT THE END OF THE GAME SO AMAZING.


There are way more game changing uses for it, terminators without doubt, aren't one of them.

If , anyway, it wasn't for the fact that the armor of purity provides the most game/engagment changing possibilities.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

WOW 130 PIERCING DPS AT THE END OF THE GAME SO AMAZING.


There are way more game changing uses for it, terminators without doubt, aren't one of them.

If , anyway, it wasn't for the fact that the armor of purity provides the most game/engagment changing possibilities.

And 165 piercing dps if they have the Assault Cannon. 3 seconds, and a Seer Council model die.

And 87.88 piercing dps + 57.2 flame_dps with the Heavy Flamer, which against low hp high model squad could rise the dps to the sky. Not mention if Combat Stimulants affect to Cleansing Flame.

Not mention that you are ignoring the Inspiration effect. Buff your Terminators with Combat Stimulants, shoot to low hp high model squads and you can easily buff your entire army.

PD: LOL 130 piercing dps even in T3 is low?

[Ace of Swords]

It's good in the context of SM, pretty bad when considering the cost and what other races have,Tmarines do just sightly less dps than them, or rather, many T2 squads do just barely less and sometimes more than SM terminators, which perk isn't the damage but is the non-exsistant surviability thanks to recent introductions.

The flamer is a suicide weapon against everything that's not IG, and even against them, if they are on your par with tier I can assure you the squad is dead from kaserkin fire before that CD on teleport is ready again.

The assault cannon costs as much as the autocannon and doesn't offer nor the splash damage nor pretty good AV capabilities.

The missile launcher is decent enough, has pretty good uses, but doesn't offer anything else beside the ability.

And yes, 100 piercing dps on a squad that costs 650/100 - 350 that can't even get the melee upgrade is pretty bad.

More would be unbalanced, but compare it to kaserkins,Spiders,reapers,Tmarines,Doom or even barbed carni etc.

Or to something like the reinforce cost of GK termies, or the flexibility on all 3 commanders of chaos termies.

[Caeltos]

It's good in the context of SM, pretty bad when considering the cost and what other races have,Tmarines do just sightly less dps than them

I'll have to disagree quite heavily on this. Terminators are not just about raw fire power anyway, and offer way more overall flexibility and supportive-auras that are hugely overlooked.

[Sub_Zero]

I think default ranged terminators are really good against light infantry. Kill models in seconds and inspire. They do have heavy melee fists and really durable. I cannot even imagine them with higher dps with standart weaponry.

The assault cannon costs as much as the autocannon and doesn't offer nor the splash damage nor pretty good AV capabilities.

I think that the cost of the assault cannon should be reduced. Or the assault cannon should supress twice as fast.

However we started to sail away from the announced topic. And let me remember it - melee skill increase along side same damage buff and supression resistance. Force commander can buff nearby friendly units, dreads and librarians buff nearby friendly units. And Apo is able to buff a friendly unit but it should be the best buff among other space marines' buffs since he is a true support hero.

P. S. Would like to see an ability for techmarine to strengthen ranged units. Not that broken ability from retail of course.