Venom Cannon Carnifex

[Bahamut]

When they werent allowed to fire on the move in Elite mod i did agree with the change. But now it seems quite underwhelming, you're paying 750/200 (almost a land raider) for a walker that can't really beat a 500/150 t3 tank. IMO VC fexes should be able to easily beat t3 tanks that are not being repaired. Hell, a wraithlord with brightlance will give you way better returns for the price

I mean, unless it's a fire prism i totally rather go for 2 venom broods. You end up getting 72 dps instead of 50 with 50% accuracy on the move instead of 0% for 600 req and no power.

My suggestion would be revert the VC fex to retail values, 37 dps with fotm rather than 50dps without fotm.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

When they werent allowed to fire on the move in Elite mod i did agree with the change. But now it seems quite underwhelming, you're paying 750/200 (almost a land raider) for a walker that can't really beat a 500/150 t3 tank. IMO VC fexes should be able to easily beat t3 tanks that are not being repaired. Hell, a wraithlord with brightlance will give you way better returns for the price

The Shoulder-mounted weapons on WL is too Gud at Chasing down Vehichles/Termies ATM. Should be reduced to 60 or 55% Accuracy . Not sure about VC Carnifex, but, i think it does Decent Dps to Vehicles. You already have T3 Brood leaders for Termagants ,they can already Handle T3 Vehicles at your disposal. Normally TB Carnfiex or Barbled-strangler is better ,Especially TB will that Durability to tank Shit.

[Caeltos]

The problem with the Fotm is that it caused some unnatural and unintended damage spikes.

Also, of course - it doesn't JUST provide AV damage, it does have a splash effect compared to the other regular venom cannons (apart from the HT VC which is similiar) which makes it even quite okay versus infantry in general. It's abit of a generalist upgrade, but there are some issues with it in the existing state, and it's something thats under my radar.

The problem is that, it does have really really poor hunting capabilities, this can be both an issue and at the same time, acceptable to some degree, but the acceptable part is mostly if it's justified by it's damage potential. Meaning that it's good at forcing stuff to back away, not neccasarily hunt them down and kill them. So I'm guessing it's not really at a state where you get completely terrified by it, and you really have to micro intensively to stay alive. Which is something that's more of the idealistic goal with the upgrade in the current state.

Then of course, it's all entwined with how good the overall upgrade is in conjunction with the overall cost effiency. So I'd guess it's not really where it's most ideal, but given how I'm giving some thought on the Tyranid Broodpack play (termagants etc) , which are likely to recieve some nerfs (However, some other changes are going to be made in general, so don't expect nothing but flat out nerfs in all directions towards nids) everything should still be a compelling option to some degree, and mesh together with your approach and playstyle.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

Also,Tyranids already have Enough Combined AV to Handle Walkers/Vehicles alike t2-t3. Why get VC on Carfinex if u can get TB and it can Charge away & Ram into Infantries & Durability to Soak that much Damage.

[Cyris]

Glad to see this thread and Cal's comments. VC Fex has been very underwhelming ever since it lost fotm. The skill misses all the time, no fotm makes it indeed a turret, it can be tied up in melee and has lost the melee splash that WL kept, and all this at a cost of a super unit. I like the concept of a stationary anti-everything ranged unit, but the VC does not cut the mustard on this. It will occasionally one shot a packed tic squad, but much more frequently it will pour fire for ages at enemy infantry and barely do damage. Maybe this is something I should lab some time, since T3 is always too hecktic to really see.

Perhaps it's infantry accuracy should go up, or increase the splash radius? The damage could honestly go down a bit if it more consistently did AI damage in my mind. It's soooooo random as is. A ranged, slow moving unit that can't retreat doing damage I can't count on (and a skill I can't count on) is ultimately a unit I can't count on, heh.

BS and Thornback fex are both decent picks, but VC fell way back. If I need AV, the Thornback plus zoan will be muuuuuuch better while still being great against infantry and countering setup teams. BS is muuuuuch better at AI but will still do suprising AV damage. VC is good at.... doing overpriced sustained stationary ranged damage to infantry and walkers that overextend.

[Ace of Swords]

Cyris have you considered that maybe the VC is fine but the thornback is too good?

The Vc does what he needs to do well, tank AV damage while beign able to scare off any vehicles, even larger ones without the need of constant support.

[Cyris]

Cyris have you considered that maybe the VC is fine but the thornback is too good?

Yes, yes I have. Thornback, as mentioned by the OP, costs 700/200 in T3 for like 30 pop. Having played as and against it, I would say it in no way over-preforms for this price tag. Theory-craft it against many different similarly costed units or combination of units, and it looks just fine to me as well.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Carnifex cost 20 pop, not 30.

[saltychipmunk]

christ can you imagine a unit taking up a third of the army pop,

[Bahamut]

TB fex is 800/200 acutally. it has 1875 hp with 100 melee heavy dps and splash (same as a normal melee dread), plus charge and ripper spawn. TB fex is just more survivable than a t2 walker but you're paying alot for that extra survivability. Only fair comparison for a TB fex is a venerable dreadnought really. And i wouldn't say any of them is even remotely OP at all

For the VC Caeltos, why dont you try just completely removing the slash dmg out of it? VC has no accuracy to normal infantry but it shouldnt matter since the fex is still a capable melee unit unlike las preds. Both the TB and the BS upgrades for carnifexes are specialized upgrades, i dont see why the venom cannon should be more generalist than the other two.

And about the guants, yeah i agree with Handsome. Every race has its unique flavor mechanic: SM got inspiration, Chaos got workship, Eldar got fleet and webway gates, etc. Nids have their synapse system making warriors both their strong point and their weak point. And t3 warrior upgrades for gaunts just flat out go against that mechanic, not to mention all the problem they've caused

[Torpid]

Thornback is fine and venom fexes just don't do their job well enough as dedicated AV. Given that they can be tied up and don't FOTM they are pitiful at actually killing vehicles. Often a better tank counter is a TB fex assuming you have zoans left from t2.

VC fex is really overpriced for what it does so long as your foe realised he needs to tie it up before he sends another tank at it to fight or, assuming he feels the need to fight it with his own vehicles, which he really doesn't have to as in most circumstances you can just circle around it and it can't keep up.

[Batpimp]

If the issue is promoting the use of the VC fex by making heavy tanks back off why not give it an ability to "lockdown" and give it increased range sort of like heavy weapon team.

The example that comes to mind comes from COH
Marder III Tank Hunter

increases its range and firing rate but in a narrow angle. Then you wouldn't have to have FOTM and still be able to hold the line. Of course once the ability is turned off he can still as he normally plays.

Just an idea though. not sure if its been considered or what the limitation are.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

thorn backs are a bitch to deal with because they counter heavy melee and rippers counter setup teams. that basically leaves tanks to counter them with.

[Indrid]

Give Carni VCs some DoT vs vehicles. Help them out a bit against tanks in a chase situation.

[Batpimp]

Give Carni VCs some DoT vs vehicles. Help them out a bit against tanks in a chase situation.

or this.

[Dark Riku]

TB fex is 800/200 acutally.

TB fex is 750/200 actually.

Venom Fex does a lot of damage while having a big health pool itself. Combine with a zoa snare for maximum potential. If they can make it FoTM without bugging out, great. The damage should go down by a rather large amount then. Still being a big melee threat is a great advantage.

[Torpid]

I disagree really, not on something that is meant to be hunting down tanks. The prospect of being able to be tied up isn't that useful when in this role; it's much better on something like the barbed fex where you can alternate between stances for maximum damage and you get some utility vs walkers and heroes and stuff.

The boons and cons of it's melee aspect trade off well. Yes, it will beat a tank 1v1, but given the price of it it really ought to, I mean this is a specialist upgrade to deal with tanks and walkers, an AV tank still does far more to infantry than the VC fex, but for less cost, so the fact it is still bigger and tougher than any tank is perfectly fine.

I think a DoT to vehicles is a good idea.

[Dark Riku]

but given the price of it it really ought to,

an AV tank still does far more to infantry than the VC fex, but for less cost, so the fact it is still bigger and tougher than any tank is perfectly fine.

Just to chart something here: VC Fex 750/200 -- Fully upgraded pred 685/190.
I don't see how the price would justify anything in this comparison.

[Ar-Aamon]

Give Carni VCs some DoT vs vehicles. Help them out a bit against tanks in a chase situation.

I think this is a great idea. The VC Carnifex really need some love.

[Tex]

I'm not sure if something drastic has changed, (perhaps my next chapter of "project balance" needs to be with nids...) but last time I checked, venom cannon fex's are super effective "no drive zones". They do incredible damage to vehicles within reach and aren't exactly easy to approach.

I mean seriously? What exactly can approach a venom fex and not take significant damage? (Again, something may have changed since the last time I used a venom fex) A hero? A sub-commander?

I know for a fact that the only heavy melee squad that has a chance of getting near it without taking big damage is the nob squad, and even then, bio-plasma can be used to make them waste frenzy.

So with that said, what can touch a well played venom fex? Seems like a fairly short list tbh.
- nobs
- artillery
- ***las cannons (good luck using these against a defensive carnifex though right?)
- heavy melee heroes
- land raider phobos

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, or maybe I'm seeing it perfectly clear, but it seems as though the venom cannon carnifex isn't being played to its full potential and people are still used to the tank hunter that it used to be.

[FiSH]

So with that said, what can touch a well played venom fex? Seems like a fairly short list tbh.

I'd still put tanks in that list because VC Fex can be tied up while tanks cannot. Sure, I'm bringing more variables here, but this is a big factor in the Fex's ranged AV capability - and especially more so since you can't set to force melee and fire on the move ATM.

[Dark Riku]

I'd still put tanks in that list because VC Fex can be tied up while tanks cannot. Sure, I'm bringing more variables here, but this is a big factor in the Fex's ranged AV capability - and especially more so since you can't set to force melee and fire on the move ATM.

And the fex will most likely beat the crap out of the unit trying to tie it up.
While the tank has to back up and waste the shots on the closest unit.

[FiSH]

that's not the point i was trying to make. if it came down to a an army on army situation, a las pred, say, with the help of some unit tying up the fex will perform better cost-efficiency-wise in regards to its primary role. obviously the fex is gonna beat the crap out of whatever is used to tie it up, but that (beating up that unit) is most likely not the primary objective in a big engagement, rather the nid player would want to focus on the pred.

the pred wasting shots is another issue. not the fex's fault.

[Ace of Swords]

So you are saying that another big part of the fex has to be ignored just because?

If a unit like hormas or banshees melee a pred IT WILL GO DOWN, and rather quickly too, a venom carnifex will be able to beat them off, even more so with his ability.

Also tanks need constant repairs, the carnife is able to tank the damage for the whole engagment and then go back to base, without wasting time, meanwhile your venombrood/squad leaders/heroes or really, basically any nid unit finish off the rest.

[Bahamut]

If they can make it FoTM without bugging out, great. The damage should go down by a rather large amount then. Still being a big melee threat is a great advantage.

Totally. Like i said before, 37 dps with no splash and fire on the move rather than 50 dps, splash but no fire on the move

In retail VC fex is OP for sure, that's why i agreed with the taking away the fotm back then. But now i think what needed to go was the splash from the VC to make it a specialized AV upgrade. The way i'm looking it at is like a t3 version of a tzeench chaos dreadnought. Just like TB is the t3 version of a khorne dread or a furioso dread.

tzeench dread (T2 unit) has 1k hp, 73 melee_heavy melee dps, 46 explosive dps, 45 max range and fire on the move for 510/150, the wiki says it has splash but i couldn't notice it when i labbed it. And frenzy barrage, an ability that supresses and does aoe damage over an area

Retail VC fex has (T3 unit) 1350 hp, 90 melee_heavy melee dps, 37dps armor piercing, 44 range, fotm and 3 splash which is easy to notice for 750/200. And bio plasma, which is pretty much one auto attack of a weirdboy

Elite VC fex has 50 armor piercing dps, 44 range, 2 splash no fotm.

[Torpid]

Tzeentch dread does even more to ranged units than a VC fex. The thing is crazy good.

[PePPeR]

Also,Tyranids already have Enough Combined AV to Handle Walkers/Vehicles alike t2-t3. Why get VC on Carfinex if u can get TB and it can Charge away & Ram into Infantries & Durability to Soak that much Damage.

Yea it reminds me on the Plasma cannon on the GK dread, why? lol. Only GK have not much AV and nids do, but the princple is still the same, why?.

[sk4zi]

i didnt read the tread but im thinking for a long time it should fotm.
every else anti tank vehicle can and tanks even can while they are driving away...

imho its enough that it cant walk backwards to continue fire while retreating.

[Orkfaeller]

It cant fire on the move because it bugs out, for what ever reason.


The guys weren't able to fix it so we are kinda stuck with this.

[Torpid]

Which is often why reading threads is useful before saying "well I think x".