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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 7:41 pm
by Tengu
Sub_Zero wrote:No, it is just broken to have banshees at this cost. They received an HP buff (default form). Caeltos' reasoning was something like "heck they aren't worth 400 req without it". But now they have a lower cost. Hmm...
I think that banshees with leap but no charge are only good (balance-wise) in their deffault form. I would give them back their charge if they purchased either upgrade. Tell me, balance team, is there a problem to just make their charge less nuts so they don't chase as well as they used to do? I don't really like their leap, like at all, it is helpful only under very rare circumstances. But as an early deterrent of their strenght I can see and agree with that change.
Scout speed is also 6.5 and they can have 71 melee skill on 2nd minute of the game - cant see your point
Well let me help you then. Scouts have a limited use. Fire dragons are anti-everything with VERY high DPS. Why should they have such an exclusively high speed just like that? And since no changes have been made so far - they are also KB-immune (amazing BS), have high toleration of suppression and take so little damage against ranged sources. No, no. Something needs to go (if we take a boring approach to balancing them). Why do you even mention melee skill? With KB immunity you can have 1 melee skill and still special attacks won't do the most important thing to you - won't knock you off your feet.
1) man, banshees suffer a lot already due to they not high enough heath and armor - they ALWAYS bleed as hell. And you wanna cut off they leap charge, with makes them even more fragile, because they will loose at least 1-2 models just making they way to targeted squad. So with your ideas - low HP(750 hp of infantry armor - say hello to flamers), no leap, and high cost - they will become insanely bad unit.
2) about FD - yes, for now you can knock them away with special attacks. but if you will tie them up in melee - you will still prevent them from firing their guns - for example yesterday SS tied up my FD when you tried to melt Rhino, and FD after that ran to attack Rhino in melee without firing on the move. So i don't see a problem.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 8:22 pm
by Thibix Magnus
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Thibix Magnus wrote:Tex wrote:just gotta make sure banshee price goes back to 400 then...
You mean, because DA cost was reduced ? Is it ok to transfer costs just like that ? Or do you think that they are too cheap ?
edit. might be worth a banshee thread or revive the DA one
It is actually neccessary. If DAs go back to 270, that is 30 req saved for the purchase. If Banshees were to stay at 350 instead of going back to 400, that would be 80 extra req you would have, meaning you can drop a generator a hell of a lot faster.
Hmm apologies if I misunderstood Tex's remark. For the savings in T1, that would depend on the build I suppose. Pre-2.4 versions also made banshees the only T1.0 unit in the game commonly thought as unviable in pairs, which I don't think needs to be eternally set in stone. Curious to see how it works out if their traits are changed again. (and btw big thanks to the modders with all these frequent thoughts and updates).
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 8:51 pm
by Sub_Zero
1) man, banshees suffer a lot already due to they not high enough heath and armor - they ALWAYS bleed as hell. And you wanna cut off they leap charge, with makes them even more fragile, because they will loose at least 1-2 models just making they way to targeted squad. So with your ideas - low HP(750 hp of infantry armor - say hello to flamers), no leap, and high cost - they will become insanely bad unit.
Need more clarity. Do you consider that changed mechanic a good change, something that makes them better? I don't. For me charge > leap. Once you clarify that I can discuss it further with you. For now I can't.
2) about FD - yes, for now you can knock them away with special attacks. but if you will tie them up in melee - you will still prevent them from firing their guns - for example yesterday SS tied up my FD when you tried to melt Rhino, and FD after that ran to attack Rhino in melee without firing on the move. So i don't see a problem.
I suspect that some of your claims are misguided. Fire dragons now never lose their feet connection to the ground. Nukes can't even cause that! And you say special attakcs do that. No, it is wrong.
You can't prevent a unit from firing their guns if they charge towards a target they shoot at. Unless they can't fire on the move. Which is not the case with fire dragons.
Fire dragons' speed allows them to pull back from any melee unit to a favourable position. Something they shouldn't do constantly. Only if they activate some ability. That way I see that balanced. It is almost as bad now as it was in DOW1 where every Eldar unit could have fleet of foot infinetely. Ridiculous, isn't it?
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 9:53 pm
by Dark Riku
That cheap Eldar T1 :/ 270 req for Dire Avengers is under priced imo.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 10:56 pm
by Lichtbringer
Sub_Zero wrote:Fire dragons' speed allows them to pull back from any melee unit to a favourable position. Something they shouldn't do constantly. Only if they activate some ability. That way I see that balanced. It is almost as bad now as it was in DOW1 where every Eldar unit could have fleet of foot infinetely. Ridiculous, isn't it?
If they are already engaged in melee, the meleecharge should let the meleeunit keep up, or not?
On the matter of DAs and Banshees. I don't see much point in increasing the price of Banshees again by 50 because we lower the DAs by 30. That seems somewhat counterproductive? There was a reason for the Banshee price decrease.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Wed 07 Oct, 2015 11:26 pm
by Dark Riku
Lichtbringer wrote:If they are already engaged in melee, the meleecharge should let the meleeunit keep up, or not?
The melee unit will keep up, but won't tie the Dragons up in melee, because of the Dragon's FoTM, they will keep firing at whatever they are chasing. Best course of action would be to drive up to the dragons, problem with that though is if the Eldar has any other AV source that becomes an unreliable plan.
Lichtbringer wrote:On the matter of DAs and Banshees. I don't see much point in increasing the price of Banshees again by 50 because we lower the DAs by 30. That seems somewhat counterproductive? There was a reason for the Banshee price decrease.
And the DA also costed 300 req for a reason ...
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 2:55 pm
by Tengu
Sub_Zero wrote:1) man, banshees suffer a lot already due to they not high enough heath and armor - they ALWAYS bleed as hell. And you wanna cut off they leap charge, with makes them even more fragile, because they will loose at least 1-2 models just making they way to targeted squad. So with your ideas - low HP(750 hp of infantry armor - say hello to flamers), no leap, and high cost - they will become insanely bad unit.
Need more clarity. Do you consider that changed mechanic a good change, something that makes them better? I don't. For me charge > leap. Once you clarify that I can discuss it further with you. For now I can't.
2) about FD - yes, for now you can knock them away with special attacks. but if you will tie them up in melee - you will still prevent them from firing their guns - for example yesterday SS tied up my FD when you tried to melt Rhino, and FD after that ran to attack Rhino in melee without firing on the move. So i don't see a problem.
I suspect that some of your claims are misguided. Fire dragons now never lose their feet connection to the ground. Nukes can't even cause that! And you say special attakcs do that. No, it is wrong.
You can't prevent a unit from firing their guns if they charge towards a target they shoot at. Unless they can't fire on the move. Which is not the case with fire dragons.
Fire dragons' speed allows them to pull back from any melee unit to a favourable position. Something they shouldn't do constantly. Only if they activate some ability. That way I see that balanced. It is almost as bad now as it was in DOW1 where every Eldar unit could have fleet of foot infinetely. Ridiculous, isn't it?
About 2) - my bad, i wanted to wrote "...you can't..." instead of "can". but as I said - i had a game where they DIDN"T fire their guns on the move after SS tied them up.
And about banshees - leap allow them to engage better, but they are losing lots of their retreat-killing potential. Yes, they still can kill a couple of weakened models in retread, but not as good as they did that before. So for me leap is better than charge. That allow them to engage better.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 6:37 pm
by Laplace's Demon
If real changes are in the works, can we look at increasing sorcerer doombolts cooldown? As this cast by indrid demonstrates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQhw636KALM The doombolt ability is very strong in early engagements, capable of reducing tacs below half health in a very short span of time. If damage is not nerfed, surely such a strong ability should have longer cool down? in the first few minutes, you can reduce tacs below half health with the one ability within 30 seconds or so in opening engagements.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 9:17 pm
by Slaaneshi Cacophony
Laplace's Demon wrote:If real changes are in the works, can we look at increasing sorcerer doombolts cooldown? As this cast by indrid demonstrates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQhw636KALM The doombolt ability is very strong in early engagements, capable of reducing tacs below half health in a very short span of time. If damage is not nerfed, surely such a strong ability should have longer cool down? in the first few minutes, you can reduce tacs below half health with the one ability within 30 seconds or so in opening engagements.
You already have a thread dedicated to this topic and that replay proves nothing. He fired off Doombolts three times during that opening engagement and didn't even kill a model. And one of the times, the squad was completely stationary and took the entirety of the 6 bolts to the face.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Thu 08 Oct, 2015 10:08 pm
by Asmon
Tengu wrote:And about banshees - leap allow them to engage better, but they are losing lots of their retreat-killing potential. Yes, they still can kill a couple of weakened models in retread, but not as good as they did that before. So for me leap is better than charge. That allow them to engage better.
For low-mid skilled players perhaps. As soon as we're talking about fine micro, leap is plain worse. I've said it already.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sat 10 Oct, 2015 3:43 pm
by Dakrim
Finaly GK's won't be the stupid OP army EVERYONE plays.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sat 10 Oct, 2015 11:05 pm
by egewithin
I hope you guys remember that there are some 2 Banshee players around too. I mean I do not go for a second DR, only going to get already nerfed Banshees, but gonna pay more because of a unit that am not going to buy?
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 4:11 am
by Caeltos
Updated OP again.
Still not complete. Grey Knights are seeing more changes then log is documented, but we're finishing it up abit, and discussing things internally.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 5:24 am
by Atlas
Nice changes all around. Have no opinion on that HWT change yet, we'll see.
A bit concerned that this might be an overbuff on IG in general but again.... time will tell
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 7:18 am
by egewithin
Caeltos wrote:* Increased the squad-size of Imperial Guard Heavy-Weapon Team from 4 to 6 (pop unchanged, so it's still 12 pop squad)
I don't know why this happened but I hope you decreased the reinforce cost too.
* Infiltrated Stormtrooper (call-in) can be cast in Fog of War
What is Fog of War and why we couldn't call them in there before?
* Kasrkin Melta Guns upgrade removed
Awww yeah! Time to get my Predator back!
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 9:50 am
by lolzarz
firatwithin wrote:Caeltos wrote:* Infiltrated Stormtrooper (call-in) can be cast in Fog of War
What is Fog of War and why we couldn't call them in there before?
Assuming you're not being sarcastic here.
Fog of War is the area outside sight radius. So now you can do stuff like summon them behind enemy army, get appropriate upgrade and surprise buttsecks enemy vehicles/setup teams without needing to have sight radius behind the enemy army.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 10:27 am
by Swift
Very interesting choice buffs to IG, never considered anything you buffed as underpowered just generally purchased less, this shoudl alleviate thsi issue. On paper the servo skull is going to be pretty cool, but now Stormtroopers can deep strike into the FoW anyway, it may have less of an impact, but I can see all sorts of interesting combinations. To clarify, do you mean strike as in on hit? As in in melee only?
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 12:22 pm
by Caeltos
To clarify, do you mean strike as in on hit? As in in melee only?
Melee hits only.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:23 pm
by HiveSpirit
Would it be under powered to give Ogryns size medium?
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 1:41 pm
by Caeltos
A scary thought, considering that plasma guns / bolter_pvp damage sources would see quite a reduction damage. Couple that with their modifiers, particullary - regular arms fire would be quite laughably bad against them.
Would probably have to look into weapons vs medium size accuracy modifiers, beccause who knows - maybe damage reduction modifiers would go bonkers, and they'd start regenerating health from certain abilities and etc.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 2:29 pm
by Cyris
Warriors were made medium and it seemed to work out. Is there anything different about Ogryns? Also, Ogryns to medium would be a nerf, not a buff. Small arms fire IS currently a joke against them. They are currently small (according to codex at least).
Is my math right and hwt health has gone from 740 to 900?
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 6:41 pm
by Slaaneshi Cacophony
As much as I love the Inquisitor and her amazing Stormtrooper global, being able to drop them anywhere on the map at will could prove to be a bit too insane, but I think we should wait and see how it goes. You can see exactly where a Manticore is on the minimap when it fires its salvo of rockets and being able to just drop a squad behind it even if your entire army's been forced off/back at base and quickly upgrade to melta guns could spell a lot of tears for some players. Likewise with the Whirlwind or other light vehicles! I know I'm definitely gonna save my red for those guys now whenever I can.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 6:51 pm
by Adeptus Noobus
Wouldn't this just be another call-in that gives an epic power bash potential to the Inquisitor? Now she doesn't even need sight for the Banewolf and the red+req cost is less than that for a Banewolf. I get that you still have to upgrade them to get their melta weapons but it is still an easy gen bash. Is the red cost being adjusted to reflect the buff to the call-in?
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 7:34 pm
by egewithin
Well, Farseer can make an even worse situation for power farms. Farsight global ==> Webway ==> destroy everything with your whole army. I don't think it will be too painfull with only 1 squad of melta ST, it even costs more than Farseer. And it is only a single situation. She won't be able to directly call some ST in again and bash power instanly. She needs to do it all the way back from her base, basicially same strategy before this patch that.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 7:38 pm
by Tex
look at the big picture here gents...
now you can drop storm troopers behind enemy base, upgrade to meltas, and take out both turrets before he can get home to defend them. If you can follow up with a HWT and basically anything else...
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 7:41 pm
by DandyFrontline
Tex wrote:look at the big picture here gents...
now you can drop storm troopers behind enemy base, upgrade to meltas, and take out both turrets before he can get home to defend them. If you can follow up with a HWT and basically anything else...
You can take out even HQ if you are lucky enough! Caeltos should take a look at it
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 7:46 pm
by Tex
I love having expanded tactical options, but this one strikes me as being a no go.
Too much cheesy T2 shizzz coming from the Inq already tbh.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 7:49 pm
by Adeptus Noobus
Tex wrote:look at the big picture here gents...
now you can drop storm troopers behind enemy base, upgrade to meltas, and take out both turrets before he can get home to defend them. If you can follow up with a HWT and basically anything else...
Yeah, this also a concern...
I see where Atlas gets his ideas from
The gate is also deadly but requires your existing units to go somewhere else whereas Stormtroopers can be called in while you are holding your line, preventing a counter bash. It also means artillery vehicles are not in a good spot. Where you needed to get line of sight, you can now just call-in STs.
It also opens up the possibility to get a free decap on stuff.
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 8:16 pm
by Helios
Ummm, why the change to the HWT? Haven't we already learned with Catachans that more members = more bleed and with a squad that has a special unit (the one at the main gun) that it causes issues with its performance? It already has the highest number of members for a setup team, why two more?
And is there any way to have the Stormtrooper Call-In within a certain radius of the HQ so it's not too strong?
Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)
Posted: Sun 11 Oct, 2015 8:31 pm
by Atlas
Tex wrote:look at the big picture here gents...
now you can drop storm troopers behind enemy base, upgrade to meltas, and take out both turrets before he can get home to defend them. If you can follow up with a HWT and basically anything else...
Dammit, people are beating me to this.
Gotta come up with new MLG elite strats for the tourney
