Project Balance: Eldar section

[Dark Riku]

Rangers: dont compare this unit to scouts, you cant and it is a bad perspective in general comparing 1-1 unit from different faction.We have to compare the whole t1 army+transition to t2,t3 if so. anyway
Rangers are dedicated 1.5 tier sniper squad this is the reason they cost less then scouts.they are super fragile.

They are the only 2 units in the game with snipers. Of cource you are gonna compare them. I don't see the reason why they are so much better in every way.
Scouts aren't exactly robust either now are they.

Global WSE summoning this is way to expensive for 200 red, they not even summoned upgraded with hayvire for a fast surprise attack,i rather go buy it from HQ since 200 red has better use for other things.who use this global over Autarch or crack shot?...so i suggest a cost decrease or change it to summonded with haywire:)

No. The build time is almost instant, you don't pay any power for them and less req. This global is freaking awesome.

Wraithlord give him default flamer instead of mini the pew pew gun...like same damage or a slight less then Dread has.
when an infantry squad(especially AV) do enter to building WL has problem to deal with them compare to other vehicles in t2.he need support here using snipers or Wraithguards vs buildings.
not to mention he is the worst gen basher as well(again compare to all t2 vehicles) even upgraded.or flamer upgrade but i think that would be op(since this one would be more powerful then the default flamer version).

As soon as he cost the same as the SM/Chaos dreadnought and get's the same downsides. Like losing melee/ranged capabilities when he upgrades.
Making the units exactly the same isn't the goal here.

[Faultron]

no you cant compare cos scouts are starter unit and you buy easily 2-3 scouts in t1 anyway if u like and they gaining experience from the start!they out lvl rangers easy.
and you can choose what kind of weapon he get etc.stats are different too, race too.
you can decide later what you get for him.personally like scouts better then rangers so this is also playstlye preference too what is better or not.scouts best ninja cappers in the game i think.holo field doesnt work so easy when enemy has detector unit
same weapon other is better etc.., but they still can do their job.yes scouts maybe got powned by rangers but not from other ranged and this is the thing that matters.

you dont buy allways 2-3 rangers in t1 as eldar even if ,cheap' sometimes not even 1


wse global complete waste higly situational: if u can ever manage to earn 200 red until t2 which should be used in T1/t2 fights already(not all if not needed), i would go autarch+crackshot anyday ,
buying the same unit from 200 red wich is buyable in HQ is lolz, and you pay for the upgrade so its not blue free, unupgraded wse is useless, you buy wse vs vehicles(nade).
unupgraded wse is used only vs melee, but autarch+crack will do the same, oh no better, and somewhat good vs light vehicle.only use for this is you want to go t3 super fast which will rarely happen+high risk.this works only i think if you have a big lead already.


why should WL cost the same as the most expensive ones(20 power diference only) to change his default weapon to flamer, when there is cheaper vehicle which can do the same, WL is the only one who suffer from this and its not a cheap vehicle.even compare this too that SM dread naked is stronger than dread with multimelta vs eldar for example and its cheaper.yes you loose the flamer but you get better ranged for genbash in any way the assault cannon is just 2 sec more slower to finish off the same power node then flamer.but i care about the garrisoned units not gen bash to make it faster.
My goal here is not to make the unit same as others...i want to do this change cos it is weird that u buy the most expensive eldar unit in t2 which has this problem.
Do you rly think WL with mini flamer with like half or 3/4 damage of dread flamer would be op lolz.it will only help the weird thing about garrisoning.

btw what is WL purpose then riku? i think the same as any other walker
forcing off infantry and helping genbash or base camping since they cant cap after fight, so why cant have flamers?same purpose same weapon balancing to price.
this is not like rangers vs scouts where they can do the same generally and have same weapon but other is better, cos they still can do their job.yes scouts maybe got powned by rangers but not from other ranged and this is the thing that matters.and again scouts not dedicated sniper squad.
WL is dedicated walker unit
(melee dread is more effective and cheaper in genbash or base camping then upgraded WL vs any race)

dreff dread=cheap,fast solo genbash with upgrade,(early walker)
Dread versions=expensive, and strongest walkers(late walkers) ok/good genbash
WL=almost same price as dreads(late walker) not so ok genbash, good walkers

dedicated walkers balanced around prices/performance, but noone has problem with garrison like WL.

not to mention these races already have flamers to fast genbash from t1.who cares

but again i am not asking for genbash lol, but garrison facerolling WL without support is not ok:)
for me WL price doesnt match with slower genbash+garrison problem(+base camp?) other race can even support better the walker unit in these scenario if needed.
He does well in fight.every walker can do something which is his best part(dreff best genbash,dreadnoughts best fighters and versitate i think in different things) but WL dont have superior strength other then the current Brightlance upgrade:) which everybody cries about.and this is only a short period and i guess will be changed.after this he would be never superior in anything.so if i follow this logic and Dark rikus logic WL brightlancce should not be changed?maybe:) after this post i might change my mind about brightlance nerf:) cos for what reason? its not op just best av option among walkers.because not every unit/race is the same so deal with it, this is the goal.i accept this.so accept rangers vs scouts too and other things.
(but i dont accept vanguards in T2 thats not only ,colorful' but unnecessary and super op.maybe with big changes to them)

but anyway
if nobody agree with the mini flamer i wont speak more about this.

[Tex]

I'm just not seeing how you struggle against garrisons as eldar... like... at all. Why should yet another item in the eldar arsenal be a great garrison counter? I mean its not like you don't already have grenades, rangers, immolater, reaper missles (yes these things fuck up garrisons big time), fire dragons (meltas are essentially uber flamers), wraithguard, d-cannons, fire prisms, avatar, and last but definitely not least, the autarch call in!

GOOD LORD MAN!

[David-CZ]

I wanted to address that, but I see Tex already did.

[Faultron]

hmm no
i was not speaking about Eldar struggle vs these things and not even T3, i said WL solo.

early T2 when you choose to buy the first unit from t2
in case you go WL 1.
(melta is worse then flamer for cover/garrison btw)
and there is a limit what can u use from safe, and efficent
so you have only guardian(can be very risky to use them), rangers and immolator if u went warlock and wraith guard.
you summon autarch upon on buildings yes big waste to use it just for that sometimes and need 150 red.
so you need support WL to deal with them as you said and this is what matters.
support a heavy walker unit who supposed to deal solo with like anything what is infantry in T1-T2, like others do, (not against whole army).no other walker is like this, naked or upgraded they can do well solo.like when 1-2 unit do enter building and you would like to send only WL cos you dont have wraithguard and rangers would be the only other safe options (-1 capping unit at the time).
and why he has this problem? i dont know, this is why i wanted a mini low dmg flamer.for what reason he cant deal with this? cos i can buy avatar, fireprism, d-cannon,firedragon, darkreaper, immolator etc..? i dont think so

man! you forgot the eldrich storm:)

(peace and love)

[David-CZ]

Walkers never were supposed to counter every T1/2 infantry. It doesnt even make sense since setup teams are dedicated counters who are infantry. Plus you can't compare units regardless of the rest of the army. Eldar may be less effective in gen bashing than other races but are in no way lacking in dealing with garrisons.

Also I don't see you complaining about Tyrant Guard not having a shoulder-mounted flamer or whatever.

[Lulgrim]

I can make it spit acid?

[Ace of Swords]

I can make it spit acid?

Make vomit spore mines.


rofl.

[Dark Riku]

It's really hard to read your posts Faultron :/

The warp spider call in is a direct boost to your req/power economy and gives you the option for a fast reaction with an almost instant extra squad in trade for red.

20 power "only"? 20 power is quite significant. A walker's purpose is to be a line breaker and force your opponent in dealing with it. Generally putting pressure, forcing the much needed suppression team into av for example.
The wraithlord's biggest traits were already stated before.
Lower cost, no tradeoffs whatsoever on his upgrades and a self repair! come T3.

Meltas are "uber flamers" vs garrisoned units like Tex already said.
This isn't something debatable.
Wraithlord does splash damage in melee which will hurt garrisoned units.

And yes units shouldn't be exactly the same. Traits/tradeoffs are good.
What isn't fine though is that a similar unit is completely better than the other in every single way possible.

[Orkfaeller]

Wraithlord does splash damage in melee which will hurt garrisoned units.

How does that work? If he bashes something next to the Garrison?
I think if he whales against the building itself, the units inside shouldnt be affacted, right?

[Ace of Swords]

Wraithlord does splash damage in melee which will hurt garrisoned units.

How does that work? If he bashes something next to the Garrison?
I think if he whales against the building itself, the units inside shouldnt be affacted, right?

It's depends how they are spread out in the buildings, in a building like the one on top of argus desert gate it won't do much, in something like the small building top of siwal frontier even LC termies will quickly kill a tact squad inside it (note it's not the building near the power).

[FiSH]

I think if he whales against the building itself, the units inside shouldnt be affacted, right?

Units inside garrison can be hit by splash damage. The effect depends on the building.

Any splash damage will hurt things in garrison. For example, the small garrisons in the upper part of siwal frontier: if heretics doomblast around that structure, they will damage garrisoned units.

EDIT: damnit Ace posted literally the same thing a second before me

[Asmon]

There are several buildings that entirely protect units inside from splash damage since every ability doing splash damage has a radius inferior to the distance at which the garrisoned units are (from the entrance). For example on Hydris.

and last but definitely not least, the autarch call in!

You know it =)

[Faultron]

It's really hard to read your posts Faultron :/

The warp spider call in is a direct boost to your req/power economy and gives you the option for a fast reaction with an almost instant extra squad in trade for red.

20 power "only"? 20 power is quite significant. A walker's purpose is to be a line breaker and force your opponent in dealing with it. Generally putting pressure, forcing the much needed suppression team into av for example.
The wraithlord's biggest traits were already stated before.
Lower cost, no tradeoffs whatsoever on his upgrades and a self repair! come T3.

Meltas are "uber flamers" vs garrisoned units like Tex already said.
This isn't something debatable.
Wraithlord does splash damage in melee which will hurt garrisoned units.

And yes units shouldn't be exactly the same. Traits/tradeoffs are good.
What isn't fine though is that a similar unit is completely better than the other in every single way possible.

does Elite mod changed the behavior of meltas or flamers?
in retail flamer is way better vs garrisons, cos meltas can miss 50%, flamers never
(would be nice to have full stats of everything and same detailed as wiki dow)

yes the only other race is nids, but dat unit differs more from walkers anyway.and its cheaper and has abilitys to make him shine in something.WL is almost same as dreads and not just in price.and even an upgraded WL which cost more then melee dread is still worse then melee dread in those sceniarios.so you cant judge this with price.
but i can accept not getting flamer as i said before.just the reason for that is rly not answered/clear to me.
And why ppl complains about WL brightlance then,cos finally he shines in something other then his T3!! upgrade?

rangers are not better then scouts in every single way possible.and not even so similar unit as i wrote before, so why ppl complaining? but if something needs to be changed ever here is the sniper upgrade power cost decreased(5-10), not rangers cost increase.

why no same judge in general here in forums?
it is good that units and races differs indeed

[Kvek]

I think you are forgetting that WL still retains splash and full melee damage when he has ranged weapons.

WL is almost same as dreads and not just in price.and even an upgraded WL which cost more then melee dread is still worse then melee dread in those sceniarios.so you cant judge this with price.

MoK Dread and GK dread cost more than a wl with weapon. expect the SM one which starts out with a melee weapon, yes WL is worse in melee than these dreads, but he can also do AV damage/40dps piercing from range.

[Faultron]

I think you are forgetting that WL still retains splash and full melee damage when he has ranged weapons.

WL is almost same as dreads and not just in price.and even an upgraded WL which cost more then melee dread is still worse then melee dread in those sceniarios.so you cant judge this with price.

MoK Dread and GK dread cost more than a wl with weapon. expect the SM one which starts out with a melee weapon, yes WL is worse in melee than these dreads, but he can also do AV damage/40dps piercing from range.

no i did not forgot (only from my post)
SM dread got buffed without default price change+upgrades were tweaked to positive way as well.but most important
-Upgrading with a ranged weapon no longer removes inspiration on melee kill
this pretty much not only covers but over shadows WL Splash damage
WL got buffed too with default price change+upgrade in positive way too
(but brightlance does 20 dps not 40 kvek)

so this is not so uniq/or big deal to WL, the only thing he has is his brightlance in T2 now and you ppl want kill it basicly.

[Arbit]

Why exactly are meltas so good against garrisons? I've had a melta dread snipe pdevs out of a building - one dead marine per shot - and was quite surprised. Do they have some sort of cover ignoring modifier?

[Faultron]

Walkers never were supposed to counter every T1/2 infantry. It doesnt even make sense since setup teams are dedicated counters who are infantry. Plus you can't compare units regardless of the rest of the army. Eldar may be less effective in gen bashing than other races but are in no way lacking in dealing with garrisons.

Also I don't see you complaining about Tyrant Guard not having a shoulder-mounted flamer or whatever.

i am speaking about small skirmishes between 1 or 2 unit, and walkers do pown every infantry in that as they should, even av setup squad in plain field. and this happens in real game, there is not only full army vs army all the time.
and garrisoning change this for WLord to much, this was my point about him

but if he not supposed to for real ok

[Lulgrim]

Why exactly are meltas so good against garrisons? I've had a melta dread snipe pdevs out of a building - one dead marine per shot - and was quite surprised. Do they have some sort of cover ignoring modifier?

http://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype.php?dam=melta

[Faultron]

so yes i was right flamer is better then melt since there is a chance to miss 50% and has only 1 as modifier
flamer 100% with 2x modifier same as Retail

[Dark Riku]

Look at the bigger picture Faultron -.-

[Arbit]

Why exactly are meltas so good against garrisons? I've had a melta dread snipe pdevs out of a building - one dead marine per shot - and was quite surprised. Do they have some sort of cover ignoring modifier?

http://dawnofwar.info/elite/damagetype.php?dam=melta

Hmph, I did go looking at those stats but I figured there must of been something else at play because my dread was one-shotting models and he connected with all three shots (multimelta does 190 per shot and pdevs have 225 HP per model). I guess he had enough levels under his belt to one shot them and the Emperor was guiding his aim, because making three 50% chance shots in a row is rather lucky.

[Faultron]

Look at the bigger picture Faultron -.-

do you mean the grafikon which is not enough detailed?
flamer still better then melta on grafikon too lol

or what picture u mean?

[Arbit]

I think he means a damage modifier of 1 and accuracy of 0.5 is far superior most other weapons (piercing gets 0.3 accuracy and 0.3 damage).

I wouldn't exactly call that an "uberflamer" though

[Tex]

Are you seriously still on this? .......................................................................

Just use your eyes, play a game, and watch meltas rape garrisons way better than flamers.

In a lab situation, flamer might be better.

But in my experience (which to be completely honest, is fucking vast at this point) melta weapons are superior for anti-garrison. There are reasons that go along with this, but I will make this an exercise for you and not spend the effort of telling you what they are.

[Lulgrim]

Hmph, I did go looking at those stats but I figured there must of been something else at play because my dread was one-shotting models and he connected with all three shots (multimelta does 190 per shot and pdevs have 225 HP per model). I guess he had enough levels under his belt to one shot them and the Emperor was guiding his aim, because making three 50% chance shots in a row is rather lucky.

WTF are you suggesting the Emperor might not be guiding a holy Dreadnought... I should ban you for this, heretic...

[Kvek]

I think you are forgetting that WL still retains splash and full melee damage when he has ranged weapons.

WL is almost same as dreads and not just in price.and even an upgraded WL which cost more then melee dread is still worse then melee dread in those sceniarios.so you cant judge this with price.

MoK Dread and GK dread cost more than a wl with weapon. expect the SM one which starts out with a melee weapon, yes WL is worse in melee than these dreads, but he can also do AV damage/40dps piercing from range.

no i did not forgot (only from my post)
SM dread got buffed without default price change+upgrades were tweaked to positive way as well.but most important
-Upgrading with a ranged weapon no longer removes inspiration on melee kill
this pretty much not only covers but over shadows WL Splash damage
WL got buffed too with default price change+upgrade in positive way too
(but brightlance does 20 dps not 40 kvek)

so this is not so uniq/or big deal to WL, the only thing he has is his brightlance in T2 now and you ppl want kill it basicly.

Inspiration on melee kill on a ranged dreadnought doesn't overshadow the fact that WL still has splash melee damage with a 40dpspiercing/20dpsarmor piercing long-ranged weapon.
Brightlance is 20dps, but it's armor piercing.

Man, try to use that brightlance vs transports, then you will probably change your mind.

[ThongSong]

it makes me weep with joy whenever I see a wraithlord arm itself with a shuriken. it means I can get a razorback or dreadnought or predator without having it die in 5-10 seconds of pew pewing

[Vapor]

it makes me weep with joy whenever I see a wraithlord arm itself with a shuriken. it means I can get a razorback or dreadnought or predator without having it die in 5-10 seconds of pew pewing

Wait a sec, Eldar has a weakness? That's it, I'm starting a long thread entitled "I can't stop talking about Wraithlords and Banshees" where I petition Caeltos and co. to allow these units to swap between upgrades at will, for zero cost.

[Faultron]

what are you speaking about guys, i guess you read only the last post on this page.
and most of the comments are like this: this is op or no not op...without any thoughts or reason/advice etc...this is not good this will cause only upsets and missleadings.
and kvek post is a little bit missleading too...he dont even answer the to the subject.
he literally just repeat things that everybody knows or already was written even by me.

my concept was basicly in short that if the brightlance gonna be nerfed WL needs some buff in other way.(mini flamer instead of default mini pew pew to make his life easier vs garrisoned unit) or even without his Blance nerf lol. (but i am against his brightlance nerf about fire on the move)

and i know i have bad english sometimes Dark Riku and sry about that.